Fox1

Re: Knockback and Bullets

Oh' date=' certainly. But the point is that Knockback moves a whole target, and must therefore really be a significant transfer of momentum (unless there is some psychological and/or physiological help from the target, or some dramatic or metaphysical principle of the game setting involved). [/quote']

 

Very true. As the momentum required to move a person doesn't even exist to transfer, there can be no knockback as it's commonly thought of. That's a given for anyone who understands the basics of physics.

Re: Knockback and Bullets

Actually his arguments do nothing but affirm your statement. All the effects he mentions contribute to a higher momentum transfer (a.k.a. impulse) to the shooter ("recoil") than to the target. This difference must exist in any case by the second law of thermodynamics; the interesting thing is that it sounds like it is pretty significant in magnitude.

Exactly. In pure energy terms, guns are worse on the shooter than the target.

But energy doesn't tell the whole story. Something that won't budge a person (say a .30-06) is still capable of blowing a hole in over 3/4" of steel.

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

+1 Counts pips as body.

Should be +2

+1/2 has a d6-1 stun mult of the body rolled

Is not an advantage (except when added to a power that doesn't normally do stun at all).

This method in fact produces less average stun per point of body than the normal EB after accounting for the first advantage.

+1/2 to go against resistant defenses (my big of reverse engeneering)

Not considered an advantage in HERO at all.

The following are considered to be exactly equal pointed powers in offical HERO.

2d6 RKA

6d6 EB

6d6 EB, only does stun.

There is no doubt that in pure damage terms, the powers greatly decend in effectiveness.

But like a number of things in HERO, that isn't the measure of the point cost. Here they consider lethal -> semi-lethal -> non-lethal to hold advantages in the reverse order of damage effectiveness.

That is, it's better to be non-lethal in practical play than it is to be lethal. This advantage offsets the difference in effective damage.

This assumption (core to the HERO system) is what one must either agree with or disagree with.

And if you disagree with it, you need to modify point costs to bring the system into agreement with you.

For myself, I don't care. The points don't matter.

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

I said I THINK he's BSing... and I DO technically win, if only because the rules and FAQ and Steve back me up.

I don't believe that I ever stated that the current FAQ or Steve said anything differently.

I'm saying that their way of looking at it is flawed given the core asssumptions built into HERO, i.e. they screwed up.

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

Then a number of people need to lighten up. Sheesh.

A lot of people on these boards need to lighten up.

But I don't see it happening, so I'll note what I don't like when I see what I don't like.

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

RKA 2d6' date=' -0 (Does Not Bypass Non-Resistant Defenses)[/b']

 

Now, let's try it with Energy Blast:

 

Energy Blast 5d6, -0 (Does Not Bypass Non-Resistant Defenses)

.

That's not how it works. The cost for 15 points of RKA = 15 points of EB.

So, assuming EB as the reference power and 30 Active Points:

RKA 2d6: -0 (Bypasses Non-Resistant Defenses) = EB 6d6

Or if you like assuming RKA as the reference power:

RKA 2d6 = EB 6d6: -0 (Does not Bypass Non-Resistant Defenses)

It seems clear, that one of the most core relationships in HERO considers the ability to bypass non-resistent defenses to be a 0 level advantage.

Now, one may take exception to that reasoning. That's fine.

But if one does not take exception to that reasoning, one certainly can't complain about me ruling that AVLD RKAs does not bypass non-resistant defenses because the limit you'd apply would be 0.

If anything, I'm more consistent on this matter than 5th edition which tries to have it both ways.

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

Not really. All I see happening is KA losing their ability to bypass non-Resistant Defenses. All this zero-limit double-talk doesn't change that fact. Did you even read my post?.

Of course, it was the one that attempted to completely side-step my original point.

It's a significant disadvantage, i.e.: KAs do less damage.

Then RKA should cost more than EB because, i.e. EB do less damage.

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

But... yes' date=' since KA is losing one of its features in your way of doing things, it's still losing out.[/quote']

 

And it's gaining as well. If it's a 0 limit between RKA and EB, it's a 0 limit elsewhere and for the same reasons.

 

It's not poorly designed. There are countless Power combinations that are unbalanced and crazy.

 

From an ideal PoV, if it's unbalanced and crazy- its poorly designed.

 

The question then becomes, 1) does it matter, 2) can it be fixed.

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

I don't really understand why such an obscure issue should inspire such vitriol. So it's a very rare occurence; who cares?

A number of people took the new 'point sinks' in 5th edition with less than high spirits. You're seeing a little of that in this thread.

Re: Hero is broken

I still don't understand' date=' you are obviously going to have to explain that a bit better. (maybe with some examples)[/quote']

 

 

Email me.

Re: Hero is broken

Fox' date=' if you truly felt this way, you wouldn't be posting on the thread... [/quote']

 

I'm getting ready to exit the thread, and explaining why.

 

The first few circles of this I was willing to see if anything new was going to come up. One never knows.

 

It's now reached the point where it's clear that there is no real effort to correct anything, nor does it appear to be even remotely likely that there will be such an effort.

 

So, I'm pulling out- and letting you know what I think of the wasted time. Someone PM me if there is any real mechanical output.

Re: Hero is broken

What is it about an exponential system that makes these problems impossible to fix?

The whole point of a EXP system is to create the problems you're attempting to correct.

Re: Hero is broken

Besides' date=' the process is rewarding in and of itself, and I find such things interesting to read. Especially since I've been on both sides.[/quote']

 

You and other must, for these exchanges have been repeated without change it seems on a monthly basis.

 

As for your hopes of finding a solution, years of watching such as yourself at work convinces me of one thing. No work gets done. It's all about repeating the same words, if in different order.

Re: Hero is broken

Why not have Brilliant seekers? Who are smart enough to find a break point and then try to think of a way to change it' date=' but have no solution yet.[/quote']

 

Finding break points in games does not take brilliance. And those asking for help generally find no need to argue for the length of this thread and the previous threads I've seen in last couple months on this site.

Re: Knockback and Bullets

If you think about it from a conservation-of-momentum perspective' date=' the force of the recoil of the gun is basically equivilent to the force of the bullet impacting on the other end. [/quote']

 

Not true by the way. Recoil is a complex matter.

 

In addition to the momentum of the bullet you also have the jet of gasses escaping from the barrel, for a *very* brief period this can add hundreds of pounds of force. Using the traditional recoil formulas, it basically doubles the felt recoil. This by the way is the energy muzzle breaks are intended to use and counter by means of redirection.

 

On the other side of the coin, the weapon absorbs a significant amount before it reaches the firer.

 

And just to add a side note, most of the energy actually created in touching off a round is lost- only about 30% of it is transferred into bullet velocity.

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

Then the KA should cost less' date=' since part of its cost is its ability to bypass non-Resistant Defenses. .[/quote']

 

By that logic, KA should cost more than EB. They don't because there is give and take between highly lethal and semi-lethal attacks- i.e. a 0 Limit.

 

...it's NOT logical to claim that that's the default way to do things. It's not the default. Not in FREd, anyway.

 

This I would agree with. A house rule is required whenever overriding poorly reasoned but official rules.

Re: Hero is broken

One ends up "breaking" something somewhere with such fixes but it doesn't mean they are impossible or unviable.

I have yet to see a viable suggestion alone these lines that offers any advantages of any significance. Indeed, all I've ever seen over the *years* of watching debates covering this subject is... the debates.

Much like your post here. Asserting there's a solution is meaningless. I don't believe you, I think you're more interested in further non-constructive posting in this or similar threads.

Produce and present a solution instead.

I'm of the opinion that those pushing for changes fall into one of two groups.

1. Brilliant Whiners. They enjoy finding break points that would never appear in 99% of the typical games. But finding them makes them feel smart, and they have to prove it's a problem to everyone else.

2. Clueless Seekers. They want the perfect game, defined not as a fun and workable game, but rather as some unattainable and generally personal goal. Oddly enough they never come with a workable solution themselves. Instead they offer wishfully thinking and 'deep' thoughtful review of concepts.

Those requiring change who don't fall into those two groups have either a workable modification of the existing game, or have moved to a different one.

Re: Hero is broken

Specifically' date=' it would be interesting to fix these scale issues.[/quote']

 

 

Specifically, it's impossible in a EXP system to fix these scale issues.

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

But paying to make an AVLD attack do Killing Damage' date=' then pretending non-Resistant Defenses protect against it, is silly. [/quote']

 

By no means is this the case.

 

Before 5th edition one could have selected this build (RKA AVLD, does body) not because the intent was to bypass non-resistant defense, but because the intent was to use the hit location chart for stun multiples or to increase the deviation of damage results.

 

Those holding to the same reasoning would do well to ignore 5th edition's ruling on the matter.

Re: Personal Super-Vehicles

I've had vehicles, don't use them for much more than transport because the vehicle combat rules are so boring.

But I've never changed the character points for them in any setting. I'd had to agree that they are in general overpriced for what they bring to a character who doesn't always use it in battle.

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

The FAQ way may be the default way according to the rules. That does not make it the well-balanced way for most campaigns. Most campaigns don't anticipate deadly attacks which can only be defended against by very obscure defenses, and thus shouldn't allow them.

I'll have to agree here.

The rush of "now I should buy resistance for defenses..." was one of the first pointless point soaks I noticed in 5th edition. It's an outgrowth of Long's love affair with 'cute' power builds.

For myself, I have no need for it. So I don't use it.

I'd suggest the same course for anyone troubled by it.

Re: Hero is broken

OK now we are getting somewhere.

 

But why is it that a single spaceship or mega creature (which might be much bigger than the Earth) is considered a "single target" while the Earth is not?

 

And how about something like a Dyson Sphere? Is it a single target?

You hate the answer, but it's the one that applies in HERO. The determination of single target status is solely driven by genre as judged by the GM.

Re: I'll Never Play Pulp

There's already a very good pulp-firearm resource on Dany St. Pierre's website' date=' with links to stats, detailed descriptions and photos of all types of guns from the period.[/quote']

 

 

Sure, but his stats suck

Re: New Perk

Agree with the posters above.

It shouldn't be a perk, instead is should be reflected in a reduced 'teenager' disad, assuming she even has one.

Re: I'll Never Play Pulp

Most of us know about modern guns and weapons' date=' but don't know much about early firearms. It is just more comfortable to play in an era that you understand.[/quote']

 

Interesting.

 

In point of fact, the pulp era saw modern firearms come into being. Most of the weapons of the period are still basically in production today and are widely used.

 

From .30 cal bolt action rifles, pump shotguns and double action revolvers to the Colt Govt. in .45 ACP. There are Thompson SMG, BARs, and .30 class machineguns.

 

The 'Modern' era only adds semi-automatic rifles and of course the assault rifle to the mix. Lower weights, larger mags in the less powerful weapons, improved accessories (better scopes, laser sights, reflex sights, etc.).

 

I personally own and fire a number of pulp era weapons. Indeed, I much prefer these types of weapons and consider many of the modern developments to be setbacks in many ways.

 

Would a 'Pulp' era weapon chart at my website help?