Ki-rin

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what? It's a chestnut that is old enough and well enough "cooked" by now that it should be in a official FAQ and not need discussion anymore. Ummm, No. My first copy of Star Hero is the 1st printing in Feb 1989. Star Hero (as well as I) have been around awhile. BTW, that original ed of Star Hero did NOT have the broken "Earth has 86 Body" example in it. The "improved" FRed based Star Hero did...

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what? ...And those rules are on p176-178 of 4ed. ...and p86-88 of _Champions_ (6th printing June 1988). I don't have any of the others handy. I'll skip the references to other HERO publications. With the sole exception of one reference in Star Hero, all "breaking objects" write ups have been explictly or implicitly about smaller than planet size objects that were substantially thinner in at least one dimension. They also tend to assume attacks that are reasonably close in scale to the size of the area you want to affect. The Star Hero reference is aberrant, and probably resulted in the invention of MegaScale to fix things. Attempts to destroy the Earth using 200 Bod with Rules that do not cover the situation is no more or less than Rules Abuse. It also breaks the internal logical consistency of the game. However, the rules +can+ be used in a logically consistent manner to figure what it would take to destroy the earth. The earth masses 5.97x10^27 g and has a volume of 1.08 x 10^27 cm^3 and therefore has an average density of 5.52 g/cm^3. This is denser than Titanium (4.5 or 4.85), and about the same as ceramics such as Vandium Carbide (5.71). In HERO terms, the earth's average Body is probably best treated as a ceramic. Figuring out the earth's DEF is more difficult since all of its size, shape, and composition need to be taken into account in order to accurately model its DEF. Whatever the value is, it's likely to be _HIGH_ given the fact that the earth is a comparatively solid sphere of great size and composition 5.52x that of water. Even if we ignore the earth's DEF, there is an enormous amount of relatively hard mass that must be affected all at once if we want to destroy its physical structure. (It's _much_ easier to render the earth sterile rather than destroy it's structure.) A first pass is that every cm^3 of Earth requires 5.5 Body (28 AP) to destroy (11 Body, 55 AP, to vaporize) +above+ the amount needed to overcome the DEF of that cm^3 of Earth. Given Earth's likely DEF, The base attack per cm^3 is likely be quite a bit higher in order to get 5.5 Body through. Then to affect 1.08x10^27 cm^3, we need to multiply that base damage by 2^90 as well as pay for the Advantages necessary to affect such a large volume all at once. Finally, the attack must be designed to not allow the the earth to dissipate energy by simply being knocked out of orbit. To inflict maximum structural damage, the attack must hold the earth in place rather than let it move. I'm not going to actually crunch the numbers, but the amount of Body required is at least 5.5*90= 495 if Earth had 0 DEF. Since Earth has a considerably higher DEF (probably greater than 20), the required AP cost to get that 495 Body through in one shot over that entire volume is _HUGE_.

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what? "Realism" is an icky word when we are discussing most RP genre's. Perhaps "Logical Consistency" is better. Both Suspension of Disbelief and Emotional/Intellectual Involvement require that things work "sensibly" for PC's and their players within the context of the game environment. When this doesn't happen, people have a less satisfying game experience. Absolutely. Not by me you won't. Although a real katana (made the traditional "1000 folds" way) is capable of some pretty amazing feats. The original standard of quality for them was to see how many human torsos they could cut through in one swing. Condemned Criminals were used for this purpose. A "six man" or "nine man" katana was just that: a blade that just after manufacture could cut through that many male torsos on one swing. The amazing part is that this is verifiable historical fact, not some gaming simulation.

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what? TBF, AFAICT everyone has been comparing a MA with a staff VS a bare-handed Super Str Brick. Physics-wise, a Staff is a Force Multiplier. It's contact area also smaller and harder than a human fist. That means it hits faster, lot's harder, and in a smaller area (pressure= Force/area) than a fist will. Faster hitting with a harder substance in a smaller area means more damage. Perhaps lots more. A heavy weight boxer can hit with 1000 psi while wearing regulation boxing gloves. I wonder how many psi a 4ft or 6ft staff swung for max effect by a trained user would do? I know I've seen them accelerated and/or decelerated with force to make the air "pop" and the staff visibly undergo a decaying oscillation to immobility when wielded by a skilled enough user.

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what? All of your comments are just as applicable to Momentum, P, as KE, and P has been shown to better fit RW experimental results. So why not use P as your "one factor" instead? In addition, using P will allow you to be more intelligent in your choice of Ads and Disads for SFX because you can do things explicitly based on the mass differences involved. I think my previously posted example shows just how poorly KE fits the data. And how well P does fit the data.

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what? OMG, not the old "it takes 200 Bod to destroy the earth" silliness again. The earth is not a wall or other object with one dimension noticably thinner than the others. Those rules were written with such objects in mind, not solid cubes and spheres. The earth is _BIG_. Even given a powerful enough attack, one will not destroy the entire Great Wall of China unless the attack can affect the entire GWoC at once. Destroying the entire earth has a similar issue. The earth is on the average _HARD_. Even the rules as written acknowledge that harder substances take more energy to destroy. Finally, the earth is structured to absorb damage exceptionally well. Take a real good look at the structure of a golf ball and a cut-away of the earth. Consider how well a golf ball takes being swatted. You are far more likely to knock Earth out of orbit than destroy it if you hit it with a big attack. 200 Bod doesn't even come close.

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what? For Warp9 and others worried about damage not increasing fast enough as AP go up: The firearm example is flawed. HERO is logically inconsistent, but by far less than many think. As forensics experts and law enforcement will tell you, damage is far more correlated to Force (F= m[dv/dt]) and Momentum (P= m*v) than it is to KE (KE= .5*m*v^2). HERO says a .22 is 1d6-1K (10 AP) while a .50 HMG is 3d6K with a +1 STUN multiplier (and probably Penetrating as well given what it does to walls, people, etc ITRW). How "real" is this? A .22 slug has ~248 joules of energy at point blank. A .50 cal HMG slug has ~15700 at point blank. Does that mean a HMG should do 15700/246= 63.31x more damage? NO, because P or F, not KE, is more strongly correlated to damage. Thus the HMG should do (15700/248)^.5= 8x more damage than the .22. That's 80AP= 5.5d6K without the +1 STUN multiplier or Penetrating, or 53.33 AP= 3.5d6K with one or the other, or 40AP= 2.5d6K with both Advantages. Given the difference in mass between the two projectiles, at the least the +1 STUN Ad makes sense, and I'd tend to agree with those who'd argue for both +1 STUN and Penetrating given what RW users with experience in both .22's and HMGs have told me. So from RW experience, physics, and first principles, we get that a .50 cal HMG should do 2.5d6K +1 STUN mod Pentrating or 3.5d6K +1 STUN mod in game. The book lists it as 3d6K +1 STUN mod. Not completely logically consistent, but pretty close. Tweak to taste or not depending on how important Logical Consistency is to you.

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what? First, Mr 43 Str does not necessarily have "The Str of 100 Men". He has (1.1487)^33= 97x the Str of the Average Man. Not the same thing. Let's bear in mind that ITRW 25 Str individuals who are 8x stronger than the Average Man do exist. Second, that Str is _Dead Lift_ Str. The entire skeleton and almost all of the body's musculature are involved. Strikes are powered by _Effective Str_. Strikes involve less of the body and therefore can't involve the same amount of Power or do the same amount of Work. Third, HERO's model of "reality" is a simplification for playability and the purpose of having fun. In HERO, Str is Str. ITRW power lifters, linebackers, wrestlers, and boxers are very different even if they are of the same height, weight, and percent fat/muscle/etc (for one thing the kind of muscle they are likely to have is different. For another, their tendons and ligaments are likely to have differences.) Str is not a scalar ITRW. Fourth, as others have noted "Mr 13 Str with a Stick" in this example is the HERO equivalent of a RW MA of at least Sho-Dan (1st degree BB) rank using a MA =weapon=, not a just "a stick" (the Jo staff supposedly is the result of _years_ of study and design). This is NOT just "a guy with a stick". Bear in mind that ITRW a "Mr 13 Str with a Staff or Bat" can shatter every rib in your rib cage at the point of contact with an accurate solid swing. (Put a rack of pork ribs on an fixed vertical stand man high and let someone with a 13 Str hit it as hard as they can with a Bat or Staff. Bye bye ribs.). MA are considerably better at generating force and do it with far more accuracy. Considering what I've seen old emaciated masters do with "a stick", the HERO "2x max damage rule" may be too low to properly simulate reality... Fifth, Mr 43 Str can indeed do many things, in combat and out, that Mr 13 Str MA With a Staff can not. And that's +despite+ the fact the the MA =has= a weapon and Mr 43 Str =is= a weapon. In addition, Mr 43 Str can use a Haymake and do even more damage. Mr MA can't. Sixth, I'm not sure Mr 13 Str MA With Staff can actually do (8.5d6): 13 Str => (2.5d6) => best they could do with a Unarmed Strike is (5d6). Assuming they buy +2DC (The max they can given their base Str and that "+1/2 DC" doesn't exist), then they can get the (4d6) staff up to (8d6) but no higher given that the weapon's base damage is (4d6) with a Str min of 13. HERO has its problems, but this is not one of them. Side Note: Yes Virginia, Super Str Heroes pull their punches all the time in the comics. Not just Superman and Thor class ones, but also Spidey and Cap and Batman class ones. Supes _doesn't_ go all out against most opponents or in most environments. The comics have plenty of documentation on this fact. Greater power, even just Str, does means greater responsibility (or to be a villain).