Ki-rin

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? First pass at Steve Rogers' Stats: 30 Str 28 Dex 45 Con 25 Bod 23 Int 23 Ego 25 Pre 24 Com 10 PD 10 ED 6 SPD 13 REC 62 END 63 STUN 13" Run 6" Swim 6" Leap Would appreciate feedback, Pro or Con (no pun). Especially on values for Dex, Con, and SPD.

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? Despite a few misgivings, if you follow the thread people can see that I've dumped OHID from The Shield.

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? Yea. I was orginally going to place him around 25 Str, but the 500lb two-armed curl, the 2200lb bench, the shattering of a rifle barehanded (two-handed "bend a horseshoe"-like maneuver), and the two combat maneuvers where he caught a 200+lb human sized object in full motion (Nomad and Big Bertha) and reversed their motion (one armed in Nomad's case!) convince me his Str should be ~30. That would also jibe with The Shield having a Str min ~15. What the source material implies about his _Con_ is even more outrageous for a "human" I'm SERIOUSLY considering a 40-45 Con for him based on it. OTOH, it makes sense that Cap's Con (and possibly Dex and SPD) would be higher than his Str since ITRW the 2 great physical gifts by far of Homo Sapiens as a species are Con and Dex (possibly SPD as well). -As a species-, we have levels of Con nothing else on earth does, and -as a species- a "warmed up" human has more Dex+SPD than any other critter on earth. (Since we have no natural armor, not even fur+hide, compared to anything that might compete with Man, our best situational defense has always been Dodge and/or "out move".) -As a species-, we just aren't that impressive Str wise compared to either our Con and Dex+SPD scores OR other critter's Str scores. So it makes sense that Cap's Con and Dex (possible SPD as well) have to be even more impressive than his Str, yet still within the bounds of "natural" (whatever that means)...

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? Cap's WWF-like size has been noted by DD, Punisher, Wolvie, etc, etc. He weighs 300-325lbs and it's ALL muscle. As you well know, muscle is 2.5-3x denser than fat. What would you expect out of a character who supposedly has "Maximum possible for a Human" characteristics in every way? The Shield completely covers the torso of the BIG guy we just described. It has to bigger than 3' in diameter to do that. Aren't most? I thought Bucky was a fellow infantryman in Steve's unit? If so, he could not have been 16 unless he was a +big+ 16 and got away with lying about his age... OTOH, when I was 16, at 5'9" I weighed 135lbs. I benched ~335lbs, could dunk a basketball, could do forward (but not side-to-side) splits, and was running ~18.5 miles at a time 2-3x per week. I hiked with 45+ lb packs on a semi-regular basis. Admittedly, that's a decent level of physical fitness; but I'm pretty sure I could have carried even a solid metal 3'-4' "medium round" without being too encumbered. Carried it with Casual Str? Probably not. But I don't think I'd be very encumbered either. So the shield has a cross section similar to a red blood cell in this interpretation? Hmmm....

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? Good thought, and I agree (as I did with someone else who brought this up). As usual, how Cap is actually "run" tends to depend on who is writing Cap at any point in time or for any particular story. I've seen story lines that fit both interpretations. The tie breakers for me was 1= how easy it was for super after super to use The Shield when they got their hands on it + how long / far away from Cap they could use it (years in a few cases) + how hard it was and how far Cap was willing to go to get it back; and 2= That there is no recipe for fixing or remaking The Shield (like The Grail, etc). If someone steals my Universal Focus, and it's too much of a pain for me to recover the original, there's a recipe for making a new one (there has to be by the rules) that I can use to "get my Focus back" that solves the problem. Not so with an Independent item. THAT you must recover or those XP are GONE. You could conceivably waste even more XP making a new Independent item with the same powers, but that very quickly turns into a losing proposition. Which is why mages are +very+ cautious about making Independent items and very careful keeping track of them afterward... Given what happens in the comics, I want whoever is using The Shield to FEEL the responsibility and the plot tension that goes with it. I'm pretty sure a UF wouldn't accomplish that. Thanks for saying something positive.

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? ??? Which part ??? Cap, at ~300lbs of solid muscle and 6'4"-6'6" (makes me think of a WWF regular.), is literally more then twice the man of the average 5'4"-5'6" Elizabethan male, and pretty close to that for average 21st American males. For Cap, his shield is equivalent to a medieval round shield (a style of medium shield), like that in _Masters of Defense_, albeit made of +solid metal+ (which most shields meant to be moved were not historically because a) metal was too dear and they would have been too heavy). For the average person 1/2 to 2/3 his body weight and considerably less his muscle mass as well as significantly shorter, Cap's Shield -is- definitely a "large shield". ??? Never said or implied a disagreement here. ??? I'll note that the large "body shield" of a Roman Phallanx or the like was indeed "a portable wall". HERO system-wise, most Kanigets used medium (called "normal" shields in The Book just to drive the point home), not large shields. The Str min on a Med shield is 13. I think we can agree the average medieval knight has at least a 13 Str? Oh, and what Kingdom and Shire were you in? I certainly have said so! ~25-30 matching the things he's done in the source material to the Str tables. When or how did I give the impression of otherwise? I've seen lowered powered write ups (that I disagree with) as low as 20 Str. Never lower. This is one where the source material is conflicted. There are incidents of normals like Bucky carrying The Shield and definitely being Encumbered. OTOH, there's material stating how "marvelously light for its size and composition it is." Regardless of what the truth is, it's VERY clear that Cap can carry The Shield for days at a time without sleep, remaining combat effective with it the entire time. Threading a middle path between the extremes in the source material implies Cap might have a 25-30 Str and the Shield a Str min of 13-15, which would let Cap carry The Shield with Casual Str. Meaning essentially forever and unencumbered for Cap, but noticably heavy for most anyone else. That's a compromise and like all compromises it has some problems.

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? Double Checked. Nope. The full throw is close to a whole body motion (NOT catching it however). There have been some periods over the years when modifications were made to the shield that changed this (Tony Stark put electronic controls in it at one point making it Remote Control and Indirect), but Cap always went back to basics. If tied up, Cap +might+ be able to -feebly- toss The Shield by making a superheroic effort, but that's about it, and forget MD/MR altogether..

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? Cap's shield is OIF, not OAF. I posted the pertinent quotes directly from The Book and the rationale in this thread (post #64). As if that was not enough, I'll add another quote from FRed, p292: "Even a seemingly Accessible Focus can be defined as being Inaccessible if the character prefers. ... ...Similarly a character could define his shield as being Inaccessible on the grounds he's so skilled at using it that it's virtually impossible to take it away from him unless he's unconscious" Bolding mine for emphasis. Anyone REALLY want to argue that Cap isn't skilled enough with The Shield to qualify it as an OIF? As for the rest, every single other sfx, power, or modifier in the build has now been subjected to extensive discussion. Some things have been dropped as a result of that discussion. Some have been changed. Some have even been added (KR). I really appreciate all the feedback, particularly the dissenting opinions (one learns more from disagreement than "Me Too!") . OTOH, this is not and never was a vote or a popularity contest. The only yardsticks that matter in a "Homage Build" is modelling as much of the source material as possible and in doing it in the cleanest HERO system manner as possible. While I'd prefer to have unanimous consensus as to the details of the build, such consent is not the community's right nor my requirement. I'll post the MP for "Freedom", Cap's Shield, sometime over the next few days.

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? Independent or not, a physical object is still a physical object. Unless a sword, shield, whatever is explicitly bought in such a way as to violate being "real" (such as the miracle power armor of IM or GL's ring or He-Man's sword or ... plenty of comic book "things" are bought as not "real".) This is +particularly+ important for an object that in theory anyone could pick up and use like a UF or an Independent object. Large Shields have a Str min of 18. Any Independent Focus that is a Large Shield should also have a Str min of 18 unless "something special" is done to mitigate that.

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? Very Nice example Trebuchet

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? Agreed. By definition, your arms are restrainable. You don't get to apply "Restrainable" to a power just because it is hand-held. I also agree. However, when a hand-held device requires a full body or almost full body motion to use such that restraining the +character+ is enough to keep a hand-held device from being used (or barely used), THEN Restrainable is a fair Limitation. You can fire a standard pistol while tied up. Restrainable is not appropriate. You can't use a Bow if even your legs are "mummy tied". Restrainable is probably appropriate.

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? No, but there is plenty of guidance and are plenty of examples so that there's a general feel for what in over doing, under doing, or just right. Universal Focus is in fact an exception in that it's WAY fuzzier than most of the other Modifier write ups. We agree on this much. ...and now we get to The Rules to point out some other differences. On Independent (p297 of FRed): "This Limitation makes a Power unconnected to the character in any way. This has several effects: the Independent Power will work if the character is unconscious, dead, or across the world; the Independent Power can be used by any other character; and the points spent by the character on an Independent Power can be lost forever. The primary use of the Independent Limitation is for making special items. ..." I've quoted this exact thing in response to you already in this thread (post #96 Fox1, for those claiming I never referenced the rules). In addition, I suggest you look at p294-295 on Unbreakable and Universal (quoting all three in the same post seems a wee much for "Fair Use" and I do not want to Infringe on DOJ's Copyright.) Under "Unbreakable", it states that both a method for destroying and a method for repairing/replacing an Unbreakable Focus must be decided at creation time (without costing the character extra XPs naturally). Not so with an Independent item. If a Independant item is broken or lost, it is GONE. I've already noted that Universal is broken systems-wise. In stark contrast to the rest of the write-up of Foci, and that of Independent, Universal is a HUGE hand wave mechanics-wise: =A STRICT reading of Focus implies that any Focus of an Instant Power should cease to be operational if the character falls unconscious or is dead unless the character has bought Persistent for the Focus. ALMOST NO ONE ENFORCES THIS for Universal Foci even though it is clear in the rules. Independent is equally clear that it does work if the character is unconscious or dead. (Silly thought: one person makes all of the UF weapons used by a team. The weapons are neither Persistant nor Independent. That person goes to sleep. None of the team's weapons work... ) (Defense against character "powering themself up" by borrowing Universal Foci from their friends: Stun or Kill the now easier to squish owner(s) of said Foci. Only the Foci with Persistant or Independent will continue to work.) =The sentence "The advantage and disadvantage to a Universal Focus is that other characters can use it." is WOEFULLY devoid of detail in comparison to the guidance the rules give us regarding Independent. Independent explicitly states "the Independent Power will work if the character is... ...across the world." A STRICT reading of the rules implies this can not be true of a Universal Focus or it would be worth points one way or the other. Therefore a Universal Focus must have a stricter duration and distance limit on other characters using it than an Independent one would. Yet this is not clarified. In short, Universal stinks as a systems mechanic and most UF that everyone takes for granted should have been built with Independent but were not. The way things are now Universal Focus is a giant systems-abuse waiting to happen. And thank god it doesn't matter. This is not a democracy, nor a popularity contest. The Rules are The Law. We only interpret it. Hopefully as closely as possible. The only "agreement" I need is that my players feel they are being treated fairly and having fun and that I feel the same when I'm a player. You may game for other reasons and to fulfill other needs. Fair enough. YMMV.

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? The Shield is actually Vibranium+Iron+an unknown that has not been identified. As another poster has correctly stated, the Adamantium-Vibranium mix idea is not right. The rest of the above is accurate (tilde the fact the MacLain was in charge of a staff, not working in isolation.) Sources: wikipedia.org, search on "Capt America" http://www.comicboards.com/camb/ Google on "Capt. America's Shield"

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? Of course I do The darn thing is a Large Shield made of solid metal, those metals are the strongest metals known to Man. It's HEAVY. The Str Min on a "standard" Large Shield is 18. I'm arguably being nice when I set The Shield's Str min that low. So how much can you lift? Then there's the Dex min. My guess is that it is ~18 as well, but I don't feel on as firm a ground regarding it yet. So just how agile are you? The US government would +love+ to find people besides Steve Rogers who can do the job of Captain America and wield The Shield. Think you have what it takes to apply for the job?

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? *choke* ...funny you should use that example. That is EXACTLY the summary of a 1.5-2 year (yes, Fox1- 1.5-2 years IN the comics themselves) of a major plot arc in Cap's comic some years back. The US government tried letting others use The Shield. It was a disaster and they practically begged Steve Rogers to take it back. That's 22 CP is just the MP control. It's only ~36 CP without Independent with the Powers and slots I gave it. In short, it's cheap. Multipower always has the potential to be that efficient. OTOH, how cheap or expensive The Shield is in game terms was never the point. Modeling the device a closely as possible to as much of the source material as possible was the whole point. Let's bear in mind that Cap is probably a 500-700 CP character (>= 250 CP of that just it characteristics, then there's the better than West Point military education he got, then there's the MA training, etc, etc... ...this, like Batman, is an EXPENSIVE character even if he is "only" human.). As Steve himself has pointed out, The Shield, impressive as it is, makes up only a small part of Captain America. ...and with people hollering this much over "Independent", the howls over the suggestion a few have made to put Knockback Resistance into The Shield should have been deafening (BIG violation of HERO. If you doubt, try it in HD and see...) Of course the fact is that The Shield DOES have KR, and a reasonably substantial amount at that. Using tricky constructs like FF or DS to avoid putting KR into the Shield's MP just makes things worse. Everything The Shield can do can be modelled with Armor, EB, KR, and MD. That's it. Nice. Clean. Simple. It shouldn't be that expensive and it isn't. Make it part of a 500+ CP character designed from the ground up to use it effectively and OF COURSE it looks efficient.

Re: Always use the biggest gun Fascinating. I'll have to see if it can be applied to HERO.

Re: Creative use of superpowers My way through this philosophical thicket has been to think of things in terms of reasonableness and energy balance. OF COURSE Dorothy can throw a bucket of water. That's "everyman" territory. About the only way I'd ever make an issue of it in-game would be is IFF Dorothy has a phobia or some other problem with things related to buckets of water. OTOH, when a character wants to use their "powers and abilities beyond that of Normal Man", I hav eto have a yardstick to make sure everything is fair. For me, assuming equivalent energy use, equivalent sfx, and equivalent skill use is it. Flame Lad wants to melt the asphalt under the Bad Guy's feet? OK, how much asphalt? How fast? Right. How many dice of Flame sfx are you using? And then I try my best to let the character do imaginative things that match the ordinary stuff they can do in terms of energy output, sfx, and their skills. Flame Lad never needs a lighter or matches in my campaign...

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? Anyone who meets the requirements (characeristic minima or whatever) can use all of an Independent item's abilities. Period. How +well+ they can use those abilities is another matter. That is skill, and skill can be learned and taught.

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? THIS is _much_ closer to the way Independent should be enforced according to The Book. The only thing I do differently is too make "will be taken" also depend on what the player does in-game. If the character is already making themself as crazy as they would be if the item was taken protecting against it being taken, then why do I need to take it? They already are paying the price. Of course it isn't that simple, but that captures the main flavor of things. As I said: Dead is once. Torture can be over and over and ... One way or another, players WILL pay for their cost saving Limitations; and if they do it for munchkin reasons or to munchkin extremes, I can promise they are going to wish they had not. But that does not give me the right to be a sadist, just to enforce the rules as fairly as possible.

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? My Bad and I stand corrected. Vance Astro is -not- the guy Cap trained. My apologies. The Shield is still Independent though

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? Clearly, we disagree on every major point here: -I've quoted the rules word for word to you. You have chosen to interpret the Independent Limitation in a much more restricted and simplistic manner than HERO does. If "Independent" meant "at some point the GM must make sure the charater loses this item forever", They would have said so and given some guidelines as to what the maximum amount of time a GM should wait before doing so. That IS NOT the official write-up. It's not close to the official write-up. That's "screw the players" and "I'm too lazy and/or unimaginative to enforce this correctly." Fine. Just be honest about it and move on. -There is no recipe for making another of The Shield. ALL non-Independent foci, even Unique Unbreakable Universal ones, have a recipe for replacing them (It's in the rules as part of the costing process). The Shield does not. Therefore it is not a Unique Unbreakable Universal Foci. It, like Excalibur, is Independent. -Your whole bit about "saving up" and "defining" short durations exemplifies what is wrong with Universal and is open to BLATENT abuse. Once again, our jobs as GMs is NOT "screw the players by whatever loopholes we can find in the rules." Nor is it "I'm not telling you what how things work in enough detail that you can make intelligent cost/benefit and risk analysis". The players have a right to better by both standards. -USAgent and Super Patriot. However, that misses the important point. If "loaning" includes "involuntarily", then multi-YEAR plot arcs where a Focus is actively used against the character whose focus it is falls WAY outside of "Universal". If it was only "Universal", the correct strategy would be to make another one, not try to reclaim the original. (What happens to a Unique Universal Focus in enemy hands when the owner makes a new one? Does it just spontaneously fall to dust?). No matter how long it takes or how painful it is, Cap will attempt to recover The Shield within the restrictions of his moral code. That's NOT a UUF, That's an Independent Focus. Finally, I +AM+ willing to take a character's Independent *mumble* away from them permanently. I'm just not going to guarantee if or when because that's not what the rules say. The rules say I have to make it as much of a restriction on a character as any other combination of Limitations that are (-2), up to and +including+ the possiblity of the character losing the invested XP forever. Unless or until the character buys off the Independent Limitation, that is exactly what I will do and if in the course of events they end up permenently short on XP, well that's the risk they paid for. But it's a +risk+ according to the rules, not a -guarantee-. I can't speak for the Marvel "GMs", but Cap certainly acts like he lives in fear of The Shield being permanently lost or destroyed... ...and THAT means he's paying the proper price for the (-2) Limitation. 'Nuff Said.

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? You are incorrect. The rules says you are incorrect, and frankly leaning on a broken construct like Universal as a counter argument just makes it worse. At this point, I like Universal much less than Independent systems-wise. Independent is well thought out and has a documented cost/benefit structure associated with it. OTOH Universal is a fuzzy GM hand-wave sfx. I'd rather see players use Independent if there's any chance that it's applicable; and that Universal be either fixed or tossed from the system. However, it is clear we are not going to convince each other of anything on this topic, so let's just agree to disagree and move on to more useful conversations?

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? Ummm. No. Universal is worth no points as a Limitation, that means that any use of the Focus _must_ be of a short term duration or the character using it is getting abilities they haven't paid for, +and+ there's nothing stopping the original character from making another one. Any focus that can be used for longer than the duration of a combat or >possibly< a specific use during a short adventure is not "Universal". THAT sort of unrestricted use is "Independent". Not "Universal". ...and FTR, Cap GAVE Vance The Shield. And trained him in its use. Something that I think Cap never did for anyone else.

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? ...and that is a simplistic way of looking at it. The shield being Independent A) has allowed the Red Skull (while in a clone of Steve Rogers' body) to pretend to be Cap, faking that Cap assassinated a US Senator (? not sure I remember exactly?), was behind an ultra-right wing American jingoist organization, etc, etc. At the same time, Steve Rogers could not convince anyone he was the real Cap (after all, the Real Cap has The Shield, and Cap couldn't duplicate all of his abilities without it while RS +did+ ...this is IMHO absolutely key to the case that at least in this plot arc, The Shield was Independent), and the Reputation of Captain America went just about into the toilet along with much of the effectiveness of the US government: which was of course the RS's plan. has allowed others to use The Shield and, if they had the characteristics, all of it's abilities with varying amounts of skill. Including >against< Cap. Red Skull, TaskMaster, Super Patriot, all "Cap Clones"; have each used all of the powers The Shield with varying degrees of effectiveness (read: level of skill.). Others with higher characteristics than any human could ever attain have also. There are also plus sides to The Shield being Independent: A) It's gifting to and subsequent use by Vance Astro (of the Global Guardians) It's use with Cap's permission as a protective device. C) It's protection of Cap (and other people on occasion) when he was (or they were) unconscious or unaware. In short, The Shield being Independent REALLY affects Cap's day-to-day life and the choices made by him or others in regards to it. While having it be lost permanently is certainly one way to Make Cap Pay for the (-2) Limitation bonus, so is the rest of this "It's mine, but I'm constantly having to worry about it to the point where I'm just as much its as it's mine." The second is far more entertaining to GM and/or play. The analogy to Excalibur is an apt one (Hmmm, maybe The Shield =is= Excalibur in a different physical manifestation? That could lead to some interesting plot arcs to GM...). Or perhaps to a cat as favored pet. That cat owns you to some degree even if you think you own it. As I've said before, for this build The Shield is an Independent Unbreakable Unique OIF.

Re: Best way to Build Cap's Shield? Damn Straight. That is exactly what happened the one time the shield was irrevocably lost- eg. destroyed. Every other time it has been a MAJOR plot arc for him to get it back (like a year+ long in every case), and he definitely was lacking some abilities that nothing else could give him. As I said, Cap is Cap; But Capt America = Cap + His Shield. p298 of FRed has at least one if not 2 or 3, items / places described as Independent that are not restricted to a FH genre. In addition, Independent has been part of the Core since 3rd ed, even though there's been a genre-specific FH supplement during that same time. There are Skills, Talents, Powers, Modifiers, etc in FH that are not in the Core because they are FH genre-specific. Independent is in the Core. Therefore, Independent is not FH genre-specific. By the Letter of the Law, you're quite right. I think this may not be in the Spirit of the Law however... It was definitely custom designed and manufactured for Steve Rogers... IIRC, it was actually a team of scientists, and there's plenty of evidence that nerds can build things that are better at something than they would be He re-earned the missing XP given the length and difficulty of the plot arc. It was _real_ clear that he was lucky to have been able to it once, and that -like breaking Excalibur- breaking The Shield was a huge no-no. I think this highly depends on the group dynamics of the characters, the players, and the payers with the GM. Clearly something was wrong in the first place if there was a "Combat King" the others objected to. Flip side: If "Combat King" had more of a team player who had saved your butt as often as Cap has saved the rest of his fellow Avengers, would you have been more willing to help him? The Avengers would certainly try to help Cap. Or, as has also happened with Cap, the GM could have sent him and whoever wanted to go with him on a separate adventure (soloing could very well give the GM a chance to see if a "bad" player's attitude could be fixed or if they should be permanently severed from the group.). I've GMed some that I tried to make as close as possible, but I've never had the chance to a player in such