rstehwien

I don't have any problem with Disadvantages/Complications per se.  I thought in previous versions you ended up needing to buy too many and I found that the "complications already added in" method made things more complicated than Base+Disadvantages.  Now its "Here is your total, but if you don't take all the complications you need to subtract ..." seems a backwards and convoluted path to the same point.  But I really do like the lower number of points in complications; people aren't walking bags of neurosis with strange weaknesses and enemies.

All that said, I really like the option on 6eV1 pg 415 where you just have a total number of points and when your complications come up you get new HAP (heroic action points).  Makes it behave somewhat like FATE Aspects in that they are a temporary reward when it occurs, so players want it to come up, rather than a permanent award and they often don't want them to come up.

Now only if some power limitations were treated like that (things like focus which are a situational modifier that the GM must make happen and some players whine about).

Eclipse Phase is an RPG with a good number of transhuman ideas.  There are many mechanical an biological "morphs" as well as the option of being a virtual infomorph.  No FTL ships (something like a stargate) but there are some extreme morphs like the Suryas (Space Whales) And Salamanders which are both Coronal Morphs; they live in the suns out most layer.  Books are Creative Commons (or pay if you find them worth it).  Ideas there for the mining.

http://robboyle.wordpress.com/eclipse-phase-pdfs/

One reason I'd recommend adding the Champions 6e book is that CC left out the chapter titled "The Superhero Gallery" (character templates) starting on pg 243 from Champions 6e - the 40 pages of champions summarized in 6e left out much that I find useful (including the Character Ability Guidelines Table that tells people what is the expected norm for different numbers of points).

I disagree with the Powers book not being useful. Sure I think the variations are often redundant but there are some useful "how do you build that in hero" information in there that just reading the rulebook doesn't cover (especially CC without all the examples and explanation). Even after playing Champions since the 80's I find myself occasionally forgetting "how do I build the Flash's ability to disarm bombs in a second" (buy skill levels with a -1 limit "only to reduce cost of moving down the time chart"). Things like that aren't always clear or often used.

The premade templates, powers, equipment, etc make it easy to get people into the game since they can just make a few picks and be off and running; system mastery can come later. Main reason I was surprised that CC didn't include the templates is that my belief was a goal was to get people into the game.

Search on full words...and know where you're searching. Generally speaking, using the search bar at the top of the page from the main forum channel listing will search all forums.

 

I'm showing results for "Homunculus" and "Homunculi" (more for the latter). Those are the only two I tried.

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If you want to modify the 1d6/2 multiplier, just use the Body approach to make it still roll 1d6 and quick to resolve. So a roll of 1 = X1, 2-5=X2, 6=X3.

 

I guess as for the rest of the discussion, it comes down to taste. I do not see the need for another type of attack against the physical/energy defenses that just requires you buy a different version of those defenses. This is what the AVAD idea does, and I do not personally like the flavor of it and see it as just redundant. I can see the need for a mind attack (thus vs. Mental Defense) or magic attack (thus vs. Power Defense), but another type of attack vs. the same Physical or Energy defenses but requiring an advantage be put on them (Resistant) just seems redundant and leads to bloat. Why make characters feel obligated to buy now 2 types of PD and ED when the attacks against each one basically have the same feel, since KA using this AVAD approach are no more likely to deal Body than normal attacks are, so there is no flavor difference in them.

 

Furthermore, the lower Body output of the new KA using AVAD means it does less KB and even more already suffers an extra -1d6 of KB since all KAs allow you to roll 1d6 more to resist the KB. It also makes KAs have less range as well, since that is based on Base Points without advantages added, so KAs always have less Base Points in them using this AVAD.

 

If KAs have the flavor that rather than dealing quick to recover from damage only (Stun) like normal attacks deal, with a small chance of doing some lasting Body; they instead deal more lasting Body damage and perhaps less Stun as a result, then it makes sense to me that KAs should have a place in the game as they achieve a different result and thus make a useful addition to your golf bag.

 

If one thinks that it is better for their game to use AVAD, no problem, just be aware of the reduced KB and range that results from this.

I really like there being resistant and non-resistant defenses. Killing attacks are more than "do more body but less stun and knock-back than normal attacks", they are intrinsically more lethal because normal people don't have resistant defenses at all. So unless they are in body armor, a tough guy (10 PD, 12 Body) looking at at DC 13 attack (10d6/4d6+1k) normal attack thinks "going to hurt but I'll live" but the killing attack is "this could just kill me". Even a DC 6 (6d6/2d6k) attack is pretty scary. Put on some 6 DEF body armor and the 2d6 doesn't look quite so bad.

I've been running/playing Mutants and Masterminds for a while and haven't liked that a normal unarmored person with a good Con/Stamina (depending on version) that provides a Toughness of 4 is equally worried about a Damage 4 Heavy Pistol as they are a Damage 4 punch (which is what someone with a similar "good" Strength would have). I'd like the pistol to be more scary without having to crank up its damage value like I can in Hero.

I don't see it as having two different types of resistances for PD and ED. You have PD and ED and none, some, or all of it can be resistant to represent how effective it is vs killing. Different perspective.

I also like the stun multiple going before the damage is applied (rather than to the body that gets through) because that bullet proof vest may stop the bullet but you will still feel like you were kicked in the chest. But as you said its a matter of preference and the numbers aren't all that different.

For being bullet proof, there is Damage Negation. The power is new to me as I've been away from hero from a while. That is a completely different type of protection (like Damage Reduction) so I can understand not liking that for the added complexity. Someone could have PD/ED, part of it resistant, Damage Negation, and Damage Reduction making it very hard to gauge just how tough they truly are.

I appreciate efforts to reduce the stun lottery as I seemed to be its victim since 1e - my characters usually did well against other supers but out comes an agent with a machine gun and the x5 stun multiples popped up with obscene regularity. With the multiple of 1d6-1, the problem wasn't just that killing attacks did better stun it was the variance of the results. 6e improved things changing the multiple to 1/2d6 but it still comes down to fewer dice rolled makes for higher variance in results.

Making killing attacks roll a similar number of dice gives it the same bell curve behavior that normal attacks have. In addition to the AVAD (which I may try) above I've also seen.

"Killing" becomes a +0 Modifier to Energy Blast. Energy Blasts purchased as "Killing" are applied against Resistant defenses and do 1d6 less Knockback.

KA gets 1 BOD from a 1-5 and 2 from a 6 (raising the average BOD back up to where it was for the old system) but subtracts the number of dice from STUN, thus averaging less Stun than a normal attack. That makes it better at killing and poorer at knocking out than a normal attack.

What we found in earlier versions that helped was using the hit location chart and just reading the multiplier. Killing attacks still had higher potential for stun (which was annoying). Sadly 6e didn't change the hit location multipliers to match the same range when not using the hit location chart (still goes up to x5). But I've been wondering if rolling 3d6 for the multiplier might help keep the results more predictable. Some table like one of these:

3d6 STUNx

3-7 x1

8-13 x2

14-18 x3

* 16.2% chance of x1 or x3

Using 1/2d6 you have a 33% chance of any multiplier. I chose the above because it is close to half that for the two extremes. You can fiddle with the probability of x1 or x3 to fit how you think it should behave. Change to 3-6/15-18 and it is 9.26%, 3-5/16-18 is 4.63%, 3-4/17-18 is 1.85%, and 3/18 is .46%. Could weight it more toward x1 if desired.

The able above allows you to use the rules as is but adjust multiplier probabilities I'm leery of allowing increases in stun multiple because I saw numerous people abuse it just to KO people in one shot.

I'm returning to Hero from a long time with Mutants and Masterminds (things about Hero I still like better and I was making changes to get closer to Hero and 3e moved further from what I liked). But I really like power stunts from M&M and never found them to be a problem even with people with variable powers in the mix (like a VPP). So I'm likely to be very generous and use some of the options from Advanced Player's Guide 1. I'll require spending some END (1/10 active points or something) to make the roll and if you succeed a the skill check you can:

• Create a new power with the same number of active points (could be same power with different modifiers)
  
• Add up to +1/2 worth of advantages or remove -1/2 worth of limitations
  

Minor tricks won't require spending END. Reusing the same trick too often and I'll assign a penalty from -1 to -3 (or more) to the skill.

I picked it up and enjoyed "Blade of Fire", my favorite in the book (the red sonya like one being my second favorite - don't have book available so can't recall title).

Re: Alternative Necromancy

Nethermancers in Earth Dawn deal with spirits and the dead but aren't inherently evil (many find them creepy). They are in some sense keepers of the past allowing contact with ancestors or great masters of various skills... in fact all of the diciplines (ED classes) can access a ghost master trainer and guess who invented that.

I've also seen discussion about (but can't quite place the origin) fantasy cultures that summon the dead to defend their land because "obligation does not end at death". These cultures see nothing wrong with raising their beloved uncle to help fight the orkish hordes because uncle would approve (and says so when you talk to him over tea).

For "day of the dead" celebrations you go hang out with the spirits and bring their favorite food and drink. Its a big old party and often lively and full of good humor regaling each other with the humorous antics of the family members who have past on. Just take the spirt of that celebration add in some warrior's code of honor and I can totally see necromancers having an honored position in society - not only in letting you talk to your favorite departed relatives but also helping them to continue to defend the living.

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

Paizo is a special case' date=' though. They cater to the D&D fanbase, largest in the hobby. They can churn out generic adventures relatively quickly and cheaply, because of the uniformity of the game; and they have enough potential buyers that they can turn a profit doing so.[/quote']

People (including WotC) said you couldn't make money on D&D modules... but Paizo did, stole a bunch of the 3.X D&D audience that might have gone to 4e, and continues to do so.

 

The Savage Worlds plot point (and linear) settings are essentially adventure paths and make money. The core book is sold for $10 and while I know there is some profit in it (Shane said as much) the main profit has to come from the other books (mainly deadlands I'm sure).

 

Hellfrost is one of the most popular settings for SW (created by 3rd party) and consists mainly of setting books and adventures and is profitable (had a successful arabian knights kickstarter recently). And they aren't tapping the largest fanbase.... what they are providing is a quick start to playing the fantasy game people expect using savage worlds.

 

But yeah, I'll give you that it can't be easy to make them profitable if you aren't the big dog (D&D) but Savage Worlds shows me that it must be possible.

 

I've posted elsewhere that while modules may not be hugely profitable' date=' they are nonetheless critical for creating a fan base. I love Hero but I don't have time to write up new adventures for every session--and I'm really, really familiar with Hero. Hell, I didn't have time for that [i']before[/i] I had a family and mortgage; I'd say 90% of my Fantasy Hero games were straight converted D&D modules (which is incredibly sad). We need playgroups to be able to pick up a module and go. We also need modules to show newish players how it's done. If Hero targets the subset of players that have enough RPG experience and free time to pick up a 400-page RPG, learn it, and then make adventures and campaigns out of thin air, the customer base will be limited.

This is also true and I expect it is getting more true as time passes. The RPG market is aging and many people don't have time to do their own custom games anymore (and even the younger new players don't either). So when you have a choice between something you can just pick up and play and something else where you are given a toolkit where you have to make everything yourself people often choose the easier path.

 

Lately I've not had enough time to even convert adventures so I just go with the system that gives me adventures premade. That has been either Savage Worlds when I want something other than a fantasy experience or Pathfinder for the fantasy experience.

 

Still inside many gamers is a tinkerer that wants to make their own stuff and often feels stifled by games like D&D where there isn't a core system to make their own stuff (you just wing it). Its what drew me to Fantasy Hero in the first place... but I had more time to tinker 25 years ago.

 

I'd love to see a Dungeon Hero "adventure path" that just requires the core book and the adventure path. If I had time (and a bit more skill ), I'd make adventures myself.

Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

Chiming in late but figured I'd toss in my $.02. Bit rambling and without quotes to some things I'm responding to.

My top 3 reasons for loving Hero:

• Modular Effect Based Power System - Build what you want rather than relying on someone to produce the supplement with the power you want.
  
• Any Genre - The rules are flexible and scalable enough you can run any setting. I've played fantasy, supers, steampunk, star wars, cross genre rules, etc. with hero.
  
• Only one core book needed to run anything. Everything else I buy is examples and suggestions on customizing to a genre.
  

My preference is for "Dungeon Hero" (really like that title) is to have it be a complete setting and not genre book but not a rule book. If you want to capture the fantasy gamer (aka get some D&D / Pathfinder players to try Hero), give them something that is similar to what they are used to but showcases what Hero is capable of. Give them a setting, rules customizations, templates, sample spells, monsters, equipment, and an adventure/mini-campaign so they can hit the ground running.

Basically I'm suggesting something similar to the extremely popular Savage Worlds setting (like Hellfrost or Deadlands) or plot point books (50 Fathoms, Deadlands The Flood, Necessary Evil,... seriously get 50 Fathoms and read it; their best example of a plot point books capability). In the thread I saw mention on SW moving to a Rules+Setting book... there were 2 (ever) made that I know of (Pirates and Solomon Kane) and only one is still in print; even their main settings of Deadlands, Hell on Earth, Noir, etc. all require the main book. Think that shows that for SW players at least they prefer to have a main rulebook separate from the settings. The main book costing $10 made it take off like gangbusters.

Savage Worlds has set their focus on the time constrained gamers (adults with jobs and children) with their plot point settings and rules in general. While they do have some genre books (supers and horror; IMHO SW doesn't do supers well as it isn't scalable).

I personally prefer hero to have a genre free rulebook and was a bit sad that it was champions focus. Like others I prefer hero for fantasy and I wasn't well pleased having it be superhero focused. But I got the book and found that the superhero focus was just art, some text, and a few pages of genre info at the back. So with the idea that CC was the core rulebook going forward, I picked up 5 copies. I'm a bit miffed to learn there will be a fantasy hero complete ... won't be buying since I already have 2 core rulesets. Actually I've never bought any Hero setting/genre+rules included books (dropped out of the Narosia kickstarter because it did) after the different lines merged into Hero System as it violates what Hero means to me (one genre free rules book).

Maybe I'd buy a customized ruleset for a focused fantasy gaming experience that was based on Hero.... something to whet new players appetite for the potential of Hero and only had what was core for the game (so didn't reprint the entire core rules from CC). On that note I'd actually recommend streamlining the game in general. Take a look at these sheets teh bunneh uses for Titans

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/89685-Hero-GUI?p=2332424#post2332424

Something like that would work quite well for fantasy.... the sheet can look pretty similar to what they are used to (D&D and Hero core stats aren't that different), there is no endurance, and no speed. The experience of such a dungeon hero game would be quite similar to D&D, help alleviate some fear on the complexity of hero compared to D&D (... D&D 3.X is more complicated than Hero really). A bunch of templates, talents, spells, etc in that format could be quite compelling and then point them at the core rulebook if they want to build their own stuff. Of course it is sacrificing some sacred Hero cows.

There is much about Savage Worlds rules I don't like - not scalable, randomly deadly from exploding dice, and the powers are completely combat focused (how useful is shapeshifting to a house cat for a minute or two). But I buy and play their products anyway because they very successfully targeted my gamer profile (married, demanding job, kids) with their core rules + setting plot-point books.

I also like Pathfinder's setting, modules, and adventure paths. I could run my newly acquired Rise of the Runelords for a year or more with my group with no more prep than reading the adventure and making some notes. But good lord the rules are a killer... spread across an infinite number of books with loopholes aplenty for power gamer builds. I could just limit it to the core and maybe advanced players guide... but still some good opportunity for power builds (or crap builds).

I'd love to see Hero go somewhat in the direction of Savage Worlds or Pathfinder. Core rules and a way to hit the ground running. I still want the genre toolkits too for when I have time... but I know what I (and many others) need is something that lets me just run with low prep and that is where Savage Worlds and Pathfinder win.

Some will say "you can't make money with modules"... tell that to Paizo and Savage Worlds folks. Piazo makes some good money on the rules but as far as I can gell the modules and adventure paths are serious money makers and certainly one of the reasons they had a market before making Pathfinder.

Re: Fantasy Fiction From Steve in THE END WAS NOT THE END Anthology

Sounds like just my sort of anthology. Looking forward to it.

Re: Why does DEX affect OCV and DCV equally?

The argument can also be made by that statement that you should have exercised self-control and stayed with concept.

So you're arguing that cost outweighs concept?

 

I'm saying that if my character's concept is a teenager, let's say a full-on comp geek that doesn't have any interest or motivation to play sports/other physical activity should not have a DEX of 40 for any reason.

I found that people just changed their concepts to take advantage of the cost breaks that figured stats gave you. "That Dex and Str were integral to my character concept because of ... Oh, it saved me a bunch of points!? I never noticed ;)"

With some groups I found that slowly this happened to everyone as the arms race of point efficiency infected their thinking. Doesn't happen to all groups but it did with several I was involved in and soured me on Hero for a while (everyone was a martial artist gadgeteer and layers of defenses with different activation rolls because they could shave points... I did so love the look on some of their faces when I ran an adventure that began with them getting captured and their gear taken).

The change in 6e was one of my favorite changes. I really like the fact that OCV and DCV are separate' date=' and that you can then add in things like WFs to represent knowledge of specific weapon types, and then levels to give tightly constrained bonuses in certain situations. It lends a level of granularity that many[/quote']

My favorite part of 6e and part of what brought me back to Hero.

 

I found that in 5e' date=' DEX was still underpriced at 3:1 . . . some players I had immediately recognized it as a "god stat" (Wait, this contributes to Speed [i']and[/i] OCV and DCV and dexterity skills and initiative order? Sold!) and bought as much as they were allowed to, whether it fit the character concept or not. 6e's separation is, in my opinion, a big improvement.

Strength was also a good bargin... I saw many strong blasters and wizards for that reason.

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

I've just got a few questions about Champions, sorry if these have been answered earlier in the thread, I didn't want to slog through 38 pages of forum.

 

From what I read in the first 10 pages of this chat, it says 4 books (one of which I have found out is 400 odd pages) down into 240. How did it fit that much in there? Is it in really tiny font? Did it completely skip the description of powers from Volume 1?

What are the 4 books you speak of? The bulk of CC is from "Hero System 6E Volume 1: Character Creation" (466pg) and "Hero System 6E Volume 2: Combat and Adventuring" (322pg) - prior to CC these were the only two books you really need, everything else is an exploration of genre and examples.

Third book might be the genre book: "Champions 6E" (304pg). But honestly there isn't that much of that book in CC there is only 20 pages of exploration of genre, templates, and other Champions focused stuff in the book. There is nothing of "Champions Universe" the dedicated setting book.

Maybe the 4th book was "Hero System 6E Basic" book at 138 pages. But that was a simplified (less explanation and examples) version of volume 1 and 2 with some things missing.... CC feels like the complete version of basic.

CC is a condensed version of V1&2 that has all the rules but less of the explanation and examples (plus some reorganization like putting all the power modifiers not specific to a power in one place).

What lends Champions to be a better supers game than other systems?

I've been playing champions since 81 (maybe 82) and its way of doing thing has influenced my expectations of games in general.

Most superhero games (actually most rpgs) have "description based" powers. Powers are things like Gravity Control, Fire Powers, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, etc. Each power is a rule in itself and not very modular. In all games there really are a limited number of effects you can do - damage someone, apply some modifiers to some roll, stun, KO, move, etc.

Instead of burying these discrete effects in complex powers; Hero System breaks out each effect you can achieve in the system into discrete effects and modifiers to those effects. You then build up a power out of these effects. So a lightning bolt is an Energy Blast (or Ranged Killing Attack) that looks like lightning and could have some secondary effects like jumpstarting a car at the GMs digression. A fireball is just an Energy Blast (or Ranged Killing) that looks like fire but has a modifier to make it area effect.

So in essence Hero breaks things down into an "effect based" system with "special effects" that flesh out the description.

I have a strong preference for "effects based" system because they expose the inner workings of the game to the GM and Players and allows them to build whatever they want. Other games often make you buy a supplement or make something up that may not be balanced at all to extend the system.

This toolkit approach makes Hero System/Champions easy to apply to just about any genre.

What does it have over' date=' say, M&M or Heroes Unlimited?[/quote']

Mutants and Masterminds 2E+Ultimate Power and M&M3E are an "effects based" system and in that respect a close sibling to Hero. M&M has roots in the d20 system (so is familiar to those that play d20) and is slightly less crunchy. I prefer M&M over Hero for superhero games for many reasons (much less to track, faster, fits how I see comic tropes more, easier to do power stunts) but I also find there are some things that are harder to model and easier to abuse in M&M (loved arrays at first but have found that an entirely new power for 1 point is open to some serious abuse). M&M I also find doesn't adapt as well to grittier games with rules as written... it is much more focused on comic simulation (gritty damage is hard for example and the excellent PL balancing factor breaks down a bit at really low PL).

 

All that said I really like Hero for fantasy games and gritty games over M&M (which is why I'd prefer if the core book was Hero System instead of Champions Complete). Unless I want to be able to run on the fly... despite using hero for a long long time, I can run M&M on the fly easier than just about any game (hits a sweet spot in crunch and ease of use for me... simpler systems often fall flat for me).

 

Heroes Unlimited is definitely a description based game and is saddled with (IMHO) an awful idiosyncratic system with a ton of subsystems (I've never been a fan of Palladium).... plus random generation is the norm where build what you want is what I often prefer (although a good random generator is great for stimulating ideas).

 

There are a bunch of other options out there for supers from this thread the top recommendations and their comparison to Hero are:

• Champions - the game in question
  
• M&M - Already lightly compared above.
  
• Marvel Heroic Roleplaying - Excellent genre emulation from what I understand but not a traditional system with precise measurements - more new agey mechanics (powers are pretty loosely defined). You might think it as rules lite but the dice mechanics are very fiddly so I don't. There is no real character creation system as it is focused on picking up and playing existing characters they provide writeups for (there are some very light guidelines I don't see as a system).
  
• FASERIP - The old marvel system. Definitely description based focused on random character generation. You use a table to figure your chances of success. I'm not fond of the game because the random generation can leave you with unusable characters - like one I was saddled with who's mightiest power could maybe be as strong as a normal person's punch working with people who could destroy mountains.
  
• BASH - A somewhat effects based system. I'm pretty fond of the character creation mechanics but don't like the default dice rolling system (which multiplies dice roll by your ability) but there are optional rolling systems. It is a lighter system than M&M but offers similar options as it and Hero (less granularity certainly).
  
• ICONS - FATE inspired, random character generation, and players are the only people who roll dice (I don't like those sorts of games as I like rolling dice and often have to run). M
  
• V&V - Quirky old school game with many different mechanics and random generation. Like it more than Heroes Unlimited but that doesn't say much.
  
• Marvel SAGA - Semi-random generation, description based powers, card based mechanics, players are the only ones who play cards.
  
• DC Heroes - Description based powers, point buy like hero, power of two scale like M&M3E, with a table lookup needed for action resolution. I liked much of DC Heroes but would have liked an effects based system and a few things worked out (like the base points given making it hard to make someone as mighty as robin).
  
• Supers! - Very rules light system with very abstract powers (use a power for whatever you want as long as it makes sense based on what you called/described it as... but only twice per turn). Doesn't sound like my thing.
  

 

There are many more. For me it comes down to Hero or M&M.

Re: After The Magic

Ever read "The Magic Goes Away" by Larry Niven.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magic_Goes_Away

Magic Goes Away Collection

Basically magic was a non/renewable or slowly renewing energy source so it was eventually eaten up by gods and magicians. Gods were first to go when the magic dropped to low and eventually it got to low for even magicians and the world was taken over barbarians (actually magic being used up in an area was the reasons civilizations like atlantis fell).

In first story I ever read the main characters wanted to bring the magic back. Seems that magic gets stronger the higher up you go (some renewing from the sun I think) and they get the idea that the moon is basically magic. They waken a lost god who decides that is a good idea, he will crash the moon into the earth and bring about a new age of magic. Not to worry about everyone dying ... he will have enough power to remake everything he wants.

The main characters aren't too pleased about humanity getting under the thumb of the gods again.

Anyway the books have some good ideas of adventures in a world where magic dwindles... getting old magic items that have the old power, cities crumbling as the enchantments fade, rising of a new form of magic (shamanism), etc.

Re: What do I need? New to HERO.

Here's a direct link to the core books:

 

https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=256527

https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=240411

Important to note that the warning "Damaged Cover" really means there is likely just some small scuff or dogeared corner. I'm very happy with my damaged cover and keep wishing more of the books would meet such an unfortunate accident so I could get a discount .

Others were right on the money. Get the 2 core books or wait for Champions Complete (still wish it wasn't champions focused and just was "Hero Complete"). That is all you need really if you are willing to "do the math" and make everything else up. Fantasy Hero gives some great design ideas and I'd really recommend it.

After all that, there are some supplements that would provide premade goodies: Grimoire for spells, maybe some of the new Magic Spells pdfs for more spells, the Besitary for monsters. You could even reach back to hero 5th edition things like "Enchanted Items", the Asian Bestiary, and others. Converting isn't that hard.

Re: Announcement: The Monster Hunter International RPG!

As I said in the Champions Complete thread. I am not as thrilled by having the rules take up a part of the book. I DO understand that in this case it will probably help sales (esp with no core rule books on sale currently). I will suspend judgement in this case and will buy the book for the other bits (which hopefully will have as big or bigger page count than the rules). I just can't shake the feeling that Hero is going back to the old days of the game where we have many slightly different versions of the rules customized to a particular setting.

In the same boat as Tasha.... not pleased by the bundling of rules and setting. I've found that over the years I target generic systems (Hero, Savage Worlds, kinda GURPS ... don't like GURPS much) because of the one rulebook covering multiple settings. I typically stop buying books when I'm sold the rules again (White Wolf).

Now if the rules are really customized then maybe.

Too bad I've had MHI on my list since reading his other books the Grimnoir Chronicles.

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

I guess a better way to say what I mean would be, I wonder if they should have used the name "Champions" for the universal RPG. After all, there's nothing inherently superheroey about the word "champions;" it's not like the original game was called "Masked Capes of Justice" or something. There are many kinds of "champions."

Very true "champions" isn't tied to supers. But it might have confused the champions universe setting name. Course there is the multiverse concept in champions (now, cant recall if there was then) so the other games could have just been alternate worlds and kept the conceptual tie.

Thanks! I tried twice to reply over on rpg.net' date=' but the reply didn't seem to go through either time... [/quote']

I did get them... one 2 days ago and one just now (and responded). Was behind on my correspondance and sometimes the rpg.net server is a bit wonky so may not have told you nicely that I got it. Doesn't help rpg.net often fails to send me notifications now... used to but now it seems I don't get many.

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

I just want to say I appreciate the effort it took to format that post.

No problem. Wrote up a big post, organized responses into sections, but then realized I really didn't want to inflict a "giant wall of text" on someone

Got things off chest and available if anyone cares. Could probably have improved the text... but had to get back to work rather than write a dissertation.

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

Been busy, missed some of the posts so I'm catching up a bit. I directly dropped a line to Derek to express my excitement about CC and Eternity Island. Had a 25+ year love of Hero (not always playing) that I don't intend to stop now.

Long winded stuff below hidden in sections to not be such a bother.:

REGARDING HERO SYSTEM vs CHAMPIONS COMPLETE

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

I was honored to be part of the review team that Derek assembled to bounce off ideas. I really enjoyed the sections that I reviewed. Couple things I noticed about the review process and the sections we were given to review...

+ Derek impressed me with how much he valued clarity. In a couple of cases we went through a given section several times before he was happy.

+ Derek really listened to the review teams crazy ideas even if he did not agree with them.

+ The text is light at the right times and heavy when it needs to be. It has a great flow and distinct lack of detail overload. Hard to explain..."elegant crunch".

 

I honestly think folks are going to LOVE Champions Complete. Can't wait to order it and play it with my gang!

Despite wanting "Hero System" rather than "Champions Complete" (would rather have a multigenre core book than a supers focused one); I am really looking forward to the book. I love it when authors listen to feedback and like the idea of "elegant crunch".

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

well said. my FLGS has heaps of HERO books but i notice that none of them move. noticeably absent from the collection is 6E1.

Yeah, really hard to sell supplements when you can't get the main book. I have a very hard time selling games to my group when they can't get the rulebooks... and my group will play just about anything I run.

Hoping that CC sells well and stays in print.

That's a tough one' date=' IMO, and one where discussion of the "Complete" structure has bogged down in the past. CC will have all the rules, plus discussion of the Supers genre. Let us suppose, for a moment, that Hero publishes Fantasy Hero Complete, Star Hero Complete, Pulp Hero Complete, and Cyber Hero Complete. How many of these will a typical gamer purchase before becoming irked that he is re-purchasing the core rules multiple times?[/quote']

Definitely would bother me. Several games have done this (White Wolf games for example) and I just don't play/buy them.

 

However' date=' if we don't have "Other Genres Complete" and the only way to get the rules is through Champions Complete, does that reduce the appeal to non-Supers gamers? Probably.[/quote']

Does for me (no interest in Champions; other systems do a better job for my supers needs), but I know Hero well enough to look over that because I know the rules are for any genre. But I know several people that refuse to play superhero games and wouldn't buy a game that looks like it is for superheroes. Heard of people that feel the same about fantasy or sci-fi.

 

Options like a Hero System Rules (ie CC without Champions or any other genre) and genre splatbooks (maybe even including a Champions splatbook hived from the CC product) need to be considered as well. I'm not sure where the right answer lies. Perhaps Fantasy Complete' date=' rewriting the rules solely to change examples from Supers tone to Fantasy tone would be a great seller, and a better option than, say "Genre Complete" being sold as a shrinkwrapped 2 volume set (Rules + Genre Book) with single volumes available as well. Maybe not. Gamers are an inconsistent and fickle bunch.[/quote']

I'd personally rather see a rulebook with a small discussion of different genres (like in the main books now) and genre books. The model works very well for Savage Worlds and the Hero 4th generic book still has an honored place on my shelf. That way I'd know that there is no chance of them trying to sell me the rules again. I know some people keep griping on rpg.net that it wasn't clear that Champions was a genre book ... I can sorta see that as the disclaimer that you need the rules is in the interior of the book a couple paragraphs down in the intro. Put the disclaimer on the back cover with a logo on the front indicating it is made for Hero6E.

 

But I'm not privy to any marketing info about Hero... maybe Champions will sell better than a generic book. I'm going to buy CC out of brand loyalty and to see how the writing style for the concise version works in hopes of a generic book.

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

No matter what I may gripe about below; I'm very excited about "Champions Complete", think it will do well, and congratulations all around. A single $40 Print + PDF book is very approchable and I have high hopes it will bring new people to Hero.

Okay' date=' everybody who's been saying this is the kind of product they and their game groups have been wanting for years... time to pony up![/quote']

I've been one of the ones clamoring for "hero concise" for a while and do plan to pony up! I'll be getting at least 3 copies... and if a game actually materializes more.

 

A bit sad that it is Champions focused as I'm more interested in showcasing Hero as a generic system than having a superhero game (I've got 2 games I prefer for superhero play but love Hero for other genres). But I totally understand that Champions might sell better. Still I played Champions since 1st then Fantasy Hero and was super happy when Hero came out. What I've wanted is to see 6E slimmed down to a 4E size book with a cross genre cover.

 

I hope that the cover of "Champions Complete" is evocative of the genre rather than the plain blue with an icon of Basic and v1&2. Many people judge a book by its cover or get attracted by the pretty pictures. If a generic book is ever put out... it should have a cover more like Hero 4E or the recent Storn cover for "Other Worlds" http://otherworldsrpg.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/cover-mock1.jpg

 

Jason specifically said it is...

 

Vanilla HERO. As Jason has noted elsewhere, one of the intentions is for Champions Complete to be able to take the place of 6E1, 6E2, Champions, and Basic in the Hero Games product line, so it essentially serves as the core rulebook, in addition to a superhero genre book.

 

 

No. The Heroic-level rules are still included. Everything is treated with less extensive detail than it was in 6E1 and 6E2 (that was probably the primary design goal), and the Heroic rules are perhaps condensed even more than the Superheroic rules are. But they're in there. (After all, not all comic book stories are about superheroes... )

Glad to see that while the cover and examples will be geared toward Champions, it is still the full generic Hero I know and love.

 

I'll be sad to see the full 6E1&2 go though. My wife and I talked about things and what we thought would be great is a concise book (like the one being made) but still having the more lengthly explanations and examples of the big books available is helpful for clarity. But I've got the full books and really only need one set to help clarify things. Maybe there will someday be a "Hero Explained" or "Hero FAQ" to fill in the gaps.

 

Overall having one complete book is much better than basic and 2 full books. Much more approchable and easier to sell to new players.

 

That's about it. The place where folks will notice the most "change" is in the presentation. Aside from the obvious more concise approach -- removal of a lot of repetition, elaboration, detail, and examples -- one noteworthy re-arrangement regards Power Modifiers.

 

In Champions Complete, Adders, Advantages, and Limitations that can apply to one-and-only-one Power are listed with that Power's description. All other Adders, Advantages, and Limitations -- even if they can only apply to two Powers, or only apply to Vehicles or what have you -- are listed alphabetically in a single Power Modifiers chapter (and the description of each one indicates which Powers it can apply to). Consolidating things in this way will hopefully make things easier to find as well.

I'm going to really enjoy this reorganization I think.

 

I would think that part of the ideal market for any RPG is the people who have tried other RPGs in the same genre' date=' come out seriously dissatisfied, but still want to play in that genre. That's the [i']Pathfinder[/i] formula as far as I can tell -- grab the people who love the fantasy genre but have become disenchanted with where D&D has gone. I can easily see Champions appealing to disenchanted M&M players who want something meatier and more readily customizable.

Actually I'm in this boat somewhat. I've played/run M&M and love it but was getting back into Hero for several reasons. One thing I wanted was a better explanation of things as M&M3E is very vague in parts (shapable area of effect). Another thing I wanted was a system that covers other genres better.

 

I do disagree that M&M is less customizable in the superhero genre but it is less usable than hero cross genre... everything feels like a superhero comicc in M&M (especially 3E). Hero works less well for me as a superhero game than M&M; even back in the Champions 1st edtion days I had trouble with the concept of tracking endurance for a superhero (rarely do I see superheroes hiding behind a wall to take a recovery). But Fantasy Hero 1E did things so much better than D&D (then and now).

 

Another possibility is to do the same thing with powers' date=' also akin to what M&M has been doing. I think small, affordable PDFs for powers and archetypes would be pretty cool [/quote']

With Hero 6E there are already some very complete power databases, spells, etc which should all be compatable.

 

I'd hope that Hero doesn't do what M&M is doing with the power profiles as those products irritate me. By itself the power profiles aren't bad but you buy each one for $1.99 and there will be about 52 of them. But they are likely going to do what they did with the threat reports - collect them all into one book and resell at the end for less than half what you would have paid buying them one at a time. But what irritates me is that they added new material to the threat report collection... in a sense punishing me for buying them individually at the increased price or making me pay more for the collection (felt like an abused fan). So I'm refusing to buy any more power profiles and will just wait for the collection.

 

 

While I'm saddened that Steve's work on the 6th ed is kinda sorta (I know it's not really; that's why I said "kinda sorta." I didn't fall off a turnip truck, you know) being pushed to the side/replaced, I think this is a good direction for Hero to be going in.

As I mentioned above, I think that Steve's work is great reference material to explain things in detail. I've got some power gamers and people that like to do strange stuff in general and having a detailed explanation helps. But for general use I've wanted a more concise version.

 

I also liked the 10 templates and power blocks mentioned in other posts... just thought I'd quoted enough for one day

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

Excellent, I'll pick up one or two. Don't really plan on using it for Superhero games but a concise writeup with all the rules is exactly what I want.

Re: 5E Fantasy Hero hardcover

Nope; fairly old zip code.

Might be worth a try to see if they have fixed it... or report the problem. I've been able to sell some vintage rpgs on ebay (that I had multiple copies of... a collector so it is hard to let go).

Another option might be selling to Noble Knight Games ... I've considered doing that for a bulk sale (shelves getting crowded and baby toys displacing space in house) but I'm not sure if it is worth it for one book.

Was top of my mind because I had to write some code for it a few weeks ago (matching by zip strings instead of geocoded zip that might be from old data). Still need to import new geoshapes for all the new zip codes. Zips are a pain but shouldn't be for old ones.