CBikle

Re: WWYCD trapped in a quarantined, plague-infested city?

Just a reiteration of the original post' date=' a part that most people seem to have missed since they apparently think that [u']their characters[/u] can do better than every other hero in the world with applicable powers . . .

That's a valid point, except, in your premise, the scientists have dropped the ball in the PCs lap, because they (the scientists) don't want to make the BIG decision. I don't think it's unreasonable that PC super-scientists would want to consider going with a different alternative.

It doesn't help that the scientists seem more concerned with how this'll affect their careers, rather than solving the problem.

Re: WWYCD trapped in a quarantined, plague-infested city?

Here's how I'd fix this if I were GMing it as a scenario.

1 All the PCs would be in the infected city or the option of enviro-suits would be presented to the pcs if I decided to not have them be present at the quarantine. Starting a F-T-F game with the PCs being separated will just slow the game down too much and present other problems.

2 I'd expand the plague part of the scenario. One of the investigative pcs might try to find out more about the plague's origins in the hopes of finding a cure or more info that way, perhaps discovering that the plague was engineered by Viper/Martians/Commies/whatever which would presumably lead to the base run by the Viper/Martians/Commies/whatever which might lead to some important info regarding the plague and/or the little girl that might allow the scientists to facilitate a cure faster.

Plus the base might also have useful resources (captured scientists, ultra-high tech equipment, other captive test subjects or perhaps even the antidote itself).

3 I'd probably add a sub-plot where it gets leaked (perhaps by one of the scientists) that the girl might lead to a cure, which causes an unruly mob to form (perhaps led by the scientist who leaked the info); this'd possibly lead to the PCs having to keep the girl nearby so that they can protect her while doing other stuff.

Re: WWYCD trapped in a quarantined, plague-infested city?

Like most WWYCD threads, I have trouble getting past the premise.

1 This one forces the player into choosing option A or B when more often than not, PCs will choose options C, D, E or a combination thereof.

I don't think most players will limit themselves to the two options you presented (whether or not to use the girl as a guinea-pig)

2 It's pretty unworkable as a face-to-face scenario for a game with more than one player (you can't expect the other players to hang around while you run the trapped PC through a solo adventure).

3 The distasteful (11 yr. old girl as guinea-pig) and cynical (scientists wanting the hero to make the decision so they can cover their ***) nature of the premise will throw some players into a tailspin. Personally, I'd be OK with it though.

The scenario is Iron-age in nature, which is fine, but most iron-age type characters won't necessarily find this to be a tough choice (especially "Do What Has To Be Done" type characters). Most Silver-age type characters won't be in this scenario simply because the PC won't play ball with the GM's premise.

Re: Follower/Contact variant option: Ally

In many games I've been in (including the current one), the "Ally" rule sort of unofficially happens anyway. Often it is in the form of a friendly GM NPC who covers areas the regular PCs don't (cleric, inventor, etc) and accompanies them on adventures and is often run by another player in combat and/or if the player's regular character has been taken out of the picture.

For me, I think the key difference between contacts and followers is that PCs run their followers (robots/AIs too), but I run the contacts and contacts pretty much never get involved in combat.

Re: A mentalist who takes it for the team

If anyone's up for another round: a few aid questions --

(1) Does 5x autofire for aid cost +1 or +1/2?

(2) Aid is not ranged (so i need to buy a ranged advantage to use it at range) -- right?

(3) To aid cv I need to actually aid dex and have it count only for cv (like a -1/2)?

(4) I've never ran an aid character before. What are good, in a bang for the buck meaning of the word, aids to buy? What are good drains?

Hi Assface !

1 Before you do all the math, make sure your GM is ok with the idea.

2 Yes.

3 that's one way to do it, yes.

4 This all depends on how many points you have to work with and what power caps there are in the game. the ranged, autofire AID is going to be , very expensive.

Hope that helps Assface !

Re: Ruling on this situation...

Some systems actually spell out how much you can actually lift while flying (Chaosium's SuperWorld did it this way).

Personally, I like how Hero does it.

I think the whole "flier can't fly while grabbed" is partially a game-balance thing and partially to have it mesh with how TK str works.

How I (and others) have always run it, is that you can fly while grabbed if your strength (and any extra str from using unused movement as str) exceeds the grabber's weight.

I still don't get how this happens every game (does the character have that dopey clinging damage shield power ?)

Re: UV vision

I was actually thinking of starting a thread about U.V vision.

For 10+ years, I've run a character with it in a Champs game with multiple GMs.

To this day, I've never been able to use it beyond sometimes being able to see in dark conditions.

How do other players use it in their games and what kind of techno-babble do they use to rationalize those uses ?

Re: A mentalist who takes it for the team

Hi Assface !

Sounds like an MP is actually the way you want to go (at least for the attacks).

Re: Alcohol in Star Trek

ST:TNG has its merits, but in just about every way, the original series was a lot more fun.

Maybe it's because it was set in the 60's, but there was occasionally a strong

"Rat Pack" vibe to the show (Chekhov=Joey Bishop).

Re: Legal Woes- How do you handle?

When this comes up, it paralyzes our games.

One of the characters is a super-super straight shooter when it comes to the law and this often curtails our ability to "investigate" (breaking & entering, sneaking into other countries, etc.).

Re: Ruling on this situation...

Isn't the flying guy taking damage from the grabber ?

My take is that the flier should be able to fly unless the grabber's weight exceeds the flier's strength and movement used for strength.

Even then, flying straight up halves movement. Doesn't seem to me that the flier would be moving all that quick unless that's his main thing.

Re: Mental combat - when would dice be rolled here?

Maybe I have dice in my mind' date=' then No dice were harmed (or used) in the making of that example [/quote']

 

Right, this was just my take on how this might play out with Hero System mechanics.

 

 

If the situational bonuses allow for a roll to go against the statistical probability, an outcome might be other than everything we would expect. But then the dice are outweighing the roleplaying. But if the bonuses/penalties are so effective that there isn't any such remote chance of the unexpected, we may as well not roll; the system can't decide success or failure, just measure the degree thereof.

 

The dice don't completely decide the degree(s) of success, but they do play a factor.

 

In my games, information-based skills are broken down into 2 categories:

Knowledge based and Interaction-based (sometimes a 3rd category would be Luck-based).

 

The information players receive from Knowledge based skills are based on these factors:

 

1 How defined/specific a skill is: A PC with a KS: super-powered beings will tend to get less defined answers to a successful skill roll than someone who has a skill with a narrower range (KS: super-powered urban vigilantes).

 

2 How specific/concise a player is in his description of how he uses the skill (ie: "While searching the mayor's apartment, I'm especially interested in appointment books, expense journals, rolodexes and any scraps of paper tossed into wastebaskets. I'm also going to want to check out the medicine cabinet.")

 

3 How much the skill/characteristic roll/whatever was made by including any relevant skill modifiers.

 

Interaction-based skills pretty much work the same way, but are further modified by PC roleplaying and dialogue (these are usually even more important than how well the player makes the skill).

 

All of this helps me figure out how much info/success a PC achieves through usage of a skill.

Re: Mental combat - when would dice be rolled here?

The example provided, reads like a series of rolls related to a mentalist PC using his Power: Telepathy/Psionics/whatever skill to evade another mentalist's mind scan/detect: minds/whatever.

Each of the GM's follow-up answers looks like his interpretation of the PC's skill roll. Perhaps the GM initially decided that the task would require 1-3 skill rolls to accomplish this, but then decided on more due to the PC's lack of success in rolling and/or his plan (maybe staying mobile makes it difficult for the opposing mentalist to get a lock on him; in this case, the player's choice to remain stationary was the wrong one).

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

It's tough for me to comment on the tone of your campaign without knowing what OTHER common actions are considered heroic/not heroic. However, I would reiterate that, to me, it's no more "Heroic" to beat someone near to death so you can haul him off to Stronghold than it is to Mind Control his ally into beating him up for you. It sounds like you (and your former GM) have simply decided that mental powers are somehow inherently less heroic/more devious and underhanded than physical powers.

I agree, if you routinely blast thugs with radiation-bursts, it's kind of hard to moralize against mind control effects.

I think this is more of a case of GMs not being comfortable with these powers and pre-emptively neutering them by having them villainized in the campaign.

The Champions Universe sourcebook defines mental abilities as being semi-legal so that GMs can control how the PCs use them (I believe).

Re: How would you have handled this (GMs)?

It does seem like you are stretching to create a justification for disliking CLOWN. You can just dislike CLOWN because they are not your style and you’ve had nothing but bad experiences with them. There are plenty of published character’s past and present I felt that way about.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think you're the one stretching a point here.

I never said they were completely unusable, but their is stronger potential for CLOWN to piss off players, than say, The Ultimates or really, just about any other villain team and I've presented a few reasons why this might be the case (the combination of powers and their SFX)

I've only played in one game with the original version of CLOWN and observed another with the 4th ed. version. Neither went "swimmingly".

On this board (and going waaaay back to the cybergames days) I have read many CLOWN "war-stories" (few good).

To be honest, I've spent more time posting about these guys than I EVER thought I would and I think all of my relevant points are in my earlier posts so I'm bailing on this thread and I'm giving you the last word on it.

Re: How would you have handled this (GMs)?

 

I've never quite understood some of the more adversarial aspects of gaming. For instance why the assumption that if a GM is using CLOWN (or Foxbat for that matter) they're out to screw with you.

I think many players (me too I guess depending on the GM) see introducing CLOWN into a game as "a shot across the bow" (but still not as bad as Dr Destroyer).

I mean it's a different thing if your campaign's tone is gritty and dark, and the GM pulls out CLOWN. Maybe not such a good idea, it's jarring and messes up the setting. But if you're running a game where the tone can be changed from time to time. Gritty, dangerous, light hearted, etc, well as long as you have the ability to overcome said threat what's the harm?

 

No one sees Superman flipping out and melting Mr. Mxyzptlk into a grease spot, or grabbing him and shaking him violently while screaming into his ear and foaming at the mouth:

 

"Think that's FUNNY! HUH! HUH!" *beats on Mr. Mxyzptlk again and again* "Come ON! Tell me it's FUNNY!"

 

In general he doesn't act that way because the tone of the specific episode with Mr. Mxyzptlk is supposed to be humorous. Watching Superman beat Mr. Mxyzptlk to death in a comic who's tone is supposed to be light heart that week would come off looking strange.

This sounds pretty much what happened with Avatar (an iron-age character in a silver-age game played by a player who may've been in a bad mood to begin with and was looking for the combat to be "cathartic". The perfect storm of bad RPG situations).

Re: How would you have handled this (GMs)?

It's interesting how much hatred we reserve for those who make us look foolish, like CLOWN.

 

I would think if anyone were going to break Bats' C vs K, it would be the psychotic killer who has killed or maimed several people close to him, not someone who makes him sing and dance in public, but harms no one.

I think this is more of a case of overriding the player's CVK.

In addition to the other attacks I mentioned, CLOWN also has three members with fairly annoying transform attacks (targets get turned into photos, dice and animals) which may or may not completely remove the targets from combat.

If you've spent the better part of a game just watching it because your character was turned into a photograph...

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

If a GM doesn't feel comfortable with certain powers like telepathy or clairsentience and has to water them down to the point where they're just "plot devices" (precognition with "No Conscious Control" comes to mind), why have players spend points on them at all ?

Telepathy with "consentual only" as a limit, sounds like a plot device to me.

Re: How would you have handled this (GMs)?

I disagree with you of the 15 members only 6 have any form of Mind Control (7 if you count Merry Andrew, who can configure his VVP to have a Mind Control slot). Of those 6, only three are limited in the commands they can give. Of those three only two are kind of silly. One of those two is on the week side, and the PC has a heck of a lot of lee way in how they can interpret that command. Going back to the original six, only one of them has Mind Control as their primary schtick.

 

April Foolmaker - is really the biggest problem of the bunch of mind controlers. She is the one who really enjoys getting people to do silly stuff. Mind Control is also pretty much the whole of her schtick. Of course the END costs of her powers is going to really slow her down.

 

The Trickster - I would say is another problem, but I would have to question the sanity of GM that is pulling out that 2200 point character in the same scenario as the rest of CLOWN. Heck, he is the team's patron, more than an actual member of the team, which is obvious if you read his background. Also if the GM has The Trickester actually engage anyone directly, so that he is using his Mind Control in anything other than a subtle way, the GM is just screwing with the players and is ignoring the character's write up completely.

 

Toe Tapper - is another problem. Mainly because of the powers/tactics write up. Removing the the Mind Control from the character sheet really doesn't hurt the character. Even so we are back to looking at how limited the Mind Control is. Toe Tapper has no way to prevent the lowering of the Break out Roll. He can only use it 8 times, and it is an OAF (there is also an implication that it should be No Range, but it isn't officially on the character sheet). Also, the commad doesn't really stop most characters from being part of the fight, just sort of requires them to do something else at the same time. A GM just has to consider if their PCs are going to mind dancing at the same time. Some will be bothered by and some won't. Don't use Toe Tapper against the ones who would be bother by it, any more than you would use Menton's Mind Control against a female PC to turn her into his concubine for the night, if you know that the player (or really anyone in your group) has a problem with that scenario.

 

Trump Knight - is another one of those "why did they bother giving him that?" situations with his Mind Control. Yeah, it is to give him a "Hearts" related power, but still it seems like the one offensive power that he would use the least, if at all. It is a whopping 9D6 with the command of "Love." With a command like "Love" there is an awful lot of wiggle room in what the character would do. With only 9D6, the GM is either going to allow that the results are not too silly, or only allow the power to really have any major impact on people with relatively weak EGOs, unless Trump Knight gets a better than average roll. (With an average Roll you only get the +20 effect on people with an EGO of 11 or less.)

 

Random - is the third of our limited Mind Controllers. I don't really see the command "Stop" as being all that embarassing. She also only has a 3 in 36 chance of that being the Multipower slot that she uses.

 

Beuford The Bard - is not limited to giving only a silly command, and there is nothing in the write up to encourage you to have him do so. His write up clearly states that he is cautious about using his Mind Control to make sure his team mates are not in the area effect, which is quite large.

 

Merry Andrew - There is one Mind Control in his selection of sample gadgets. There is nothing indicating that the GM should include it in the selection of slots that Merry Andrew has for any given adventure, which means the GM should consider if it is appropriate to use against his PCs before putting it in the pool.

I was also including Popgun (even though he was expelled), who has a mind control slot in his multipower.

Re: How would you have handled this (GMs)?

I think you have just hit on the heart of the problem. It is too easy when running a comedy character to forget that they shouldn't be letting the players feel like the GM is screwing with them. I'm sorry' date=' but that isn't a fault of the character. I could run Foxbat true to concept, and still have the players feel like I'm screwing with them. [/quote']

 

I agree, but the "embarassing the PCs" thing is built into CLOWN's design. 7 out of 15 members have mind control (usually a limited version which is used to force the target to act silly in some fashion). That's a lot.

Re: How would you have handled this (GMs)?

As far as Foxbat being the brunt of the joke. Yeah, usually that is the case, but two of the most common uses that I've seen for Freddy are even more embarassing to the player. "You're Foxbat's hero" and "Be Foxbat's vallentine" are designed to upset the PC who is the object of Foxbat's attention.

Right. Players don't seem to be bothered by that as much, probably because Foxbat doesn't have the "GM is screwing with us" vibe that Clown has.

Plus, Foxbat always seems to get his comeuppance, whereas CLOWN doesn't.

So do you have as much trouble with Binder?

Actually, no. I like Binder (and the rest of the Ultimates---they were the first super-villain group in Champions), I've never run them as comedy villains or seen any other GM run them that way.

Re: How would you have handled this (GMs)?

As has been pointed out it is very easy to use CLOWN to humiliate the PCs, which is a bad idea.

Part of CLOWN's intended use (going back to the original organizations book)

was to humiliate superheroes (PCs). Unlike CLOWN, Foxbat actually works as a comic-relief type character because he's the brunt of the humor as opposed to the PCs.

In game, PCs seem to be forced to play 'Elmer Fudd' to CLOWN's 'Bugs Bunny', whereas Foxbat is closer to 'Daffy Duck/ Wile E Coyote'

Also, part of it is that many PCs may not find fighting CLOWN fun, as most of their attacks are flashes, mind control and entangles. Attacks designed to waste your actions and make you look stupid while doing so.

Re: Compensating for PC Abilities

Did the player buy his mental entangle to affect machines, animals and aliens ? If not, he should, seeing as the SFX ( time stop) should affect those characters. By having to add those advantages, it might warrant having to bring it down to a lower-level to keep it in the same relative point range. Problem solved.

I'm also wondering if Mental Entangle is the best attack to represent timestop. I'm thinking more of a Transformation attack. This might also solve the problem in that odds are he'll need 3 + shots to "freeze" the target.

Re: How would you have handled this (GMs)?

Last night, I dug out my copy of Classic Organizations and checked out CLOWN's character sheets.

A lot of mind control, flashes and entangles all for the purposes of humiliating the characters and frustrating the players.

Although Avatar's violence towards Toe Tapper was over the top (and perhaps a little out of character; I'd figure that a war-god avatar would choose to focus on Tag, the more obvious and appropriate target), I wonder how much of it was fueled by the standard PC irritation that occurs whenever CLOWN pops up.

The one legit and in-character excuse that Avatar could give for his actions:

"The fight was between Tag and I; by interfering in our duel, Toe Tapper dishonored me, and, as a result, suffered the consequences. I don't think Toe Tapper will ever do that again."

Re: How would you have handled this (GMs)?

I can see this, though part of what I never liked about CLOWN is their plans often got handwaved to not result in the death and trouble that it should cause, because they are 'funny'.

Exactly. Clown's "Fake Mechanon" scheme is the super-hero world's equivalent of yelling "fire !" in a crowded movie theater.

I think if CLOWN could work at all, it'd be in a hardcore silver-age game where it's accepted that there are fewer consequences to this kind of stuff.