Sammael

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

I've been mucking about with some low point JLA members, based on their Silver Age appearances. A lot of them do more or less work. I'm looking at 350/400 point characters (5e/6e), but essentially built to "Low-Powered Superhero" benchmarks.

 

The problem is that there are a small number of characters who can't be handled like this. Wonder Woman and Superman are obvious examples. Batman and the Martian Manhunter might just be possible, but both would lose a lot of detail.

 

I'm using a similar approach to how I wrote up a bunch of JSA characters last year, only with an extra 100 points. The idea, of course, is to create characters that are fairly simple, and easy to upgrade to higher power levels.

 

I'll post some examples in the next day or two, assuming I still care about it enough. My attention span is like that.

Well, if you do, I'll certainly check them out.

Re: Champions Complete Freebies And Errata Now Available

The character sheet PDF is still available on the website. I agree it would be nice if it was included in the zip tho.

 

The errata does not appear to be available yet. Its not in the zip or on the main errata page.

I found the 6th Edition character sheet on the website, but not the Champions Complete character sheet, which does have some differences. It would be great if it were made available. Hint, hint.

If there is significant errata, at least it's not been obvious to this new guy, though I'm still reading.

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

A few months ago' date=' I soloed upgraded versions of my Justice Society builds through Wrath of the Seven Horsemen. This was the late Golden Age lineup - Wonder Woman, the Flash, Green Lantern, Hawkman (and Hawkgirl, upgraded to full membership), the Atom, Black Canary and Dr Mid-Nite.

 

I had most of them on 600 points, except for Wonder Woman, who was on 700. Black Canary and Dr Mid-Nite had lots of points to spare.

 

They were able to handle the scenario, once I worked out the correct tactics to use. Initially they got beaten to a pulp, which is genre-appropriate. The biggest issue was that half the team were essentially non-powered Mystery Man types, who were horribly vulnerable to Killing Attacks.

 

Their starting point versions would have been toast in the scenario, barring serious depowering of the bad guys.

 

My point is that while it is possible to build near-enough JLA equivalents on starting points, it's not hard for them to get stomped by no-name opponents. (Come to think of it, most of the "real" JLA's opponents are pretty no-name anyway...)

 

One thing that strikes me as particularly important is to get the relative power levels right. I don't necessarily mean theoretical "Superman beats everyone" power levels, but the power levels actually shown in the source material (whatever subset of the source material you choose).

 

A mistake that is sometimes made is to try to apply Normal Characteristic Maxima to characters like Batman. The problem with it is that it is not consistently applied. Batman is actually one of the faster and stronger members of the JLA - certainly at the top end of those that don't have those attributes specifically included as part of their superpowers. Mechanically, however, the application of NCM will ensure that Batman ends up at the bottom of the heap. I very strongly suggest avoiding this.

Actually, I did look at Normal Characteristic Maxima as the basis for a soft cap on characteristics, but I eventually walked away from that, as it felt contrary to the spirit of super-heroic role-play. I'll take your advice and write NCM off my list of tools to use.

And I'll take a harder look at Batman.

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

Re: My version of Superman and the rest of the JLA

 

Certain assumptions had to be made to get all the characters in on the same points (350/5er or 400/6e). With Superman, it was that he pretty much starts out with all of his powers at the start of his superhero career. He might increase his skill with using them with XP (ex: buy off some of limitations on senses) but his basic power level starts really high. It's skills (both combat and non-combat) that he is deficient to begin with. Think the first season of Superman: The Animated Series. Batman when used in a full superhero setting with the JLA comes from the opposite direction. He's like a "what if" an experienced Dark Champion's (street hero) character graduated to the big leagues. So he's practically maxed out on skills from a street level setting perspective but will end up spending most of his future XP on more KS skills and Perks like bases and contacts. If either is to be used as more faithful to JLA continuity NPC's then it makes perfect sense to throw more points towards the builds. However, if they are to be used as player characters then I think they all work on the budget presented.

All player-characters are original designs and homegrown. We'll fight evil with the DC Superheroes, not as them.

Nice to have the behind-the-scenes too. Thanks.

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

One of the reasons for Power Limitations is not only to simulate superhuman powers such as those that come from being an alien, but also for play balance. Superman, for example, could have a power limitation "Does Not Work During Red Solar Radiation Exposure (-1/4)" on his powers. That means he gets more points to build his powers, but will lose them from time to time, as he often does in the comics. I don't see why The Man of Steel or any character has to be build on more then 350 Points, or even 250 Points (my personal choice) if all other major characters are built at the same level. To build a Hero on an excessive amount of points means that their powers will be shut down half the time and the entire universe would be after them, and their psychological limitations will prevent them from making any common sense decisions.

 

Further a lot of extra points are spent on "stunts". These are powers or skills that the Hero has used once or twice in a specific comic. Even George Reeve's Superman passed through a wall once on the show, but the Man of Steel doesn't have Desolid normally. This is what VPP, Power skills, and Cramming are for.

Not necessarily. With the higher point builds you assume a certain amount of experience on the character' date=' which allows you a lot more leeway in building.[/quote']

 

Hey, Cassandra, you make some good points that I needed to read. I'm not used to the Champions style of character building. I'm so much more used to a la cart class-based and skill-based character generation systems. I've got to make sure I remember there is more than one way to do pretty much anything in Champions. What I'm looking for, and part of my attraction to the JLA (apart from simply enjoying them), is the higher experience level that Greywind talks about. I want my players to feel like they have genuine bad-asses to play with. One of my problems, at the moment, is that I really don't know how many points I need to make them. I originally thought I would need 650 points, which would presumably work, but I've been persuaded that I can do it with far fewer points and accompanying headaches. So I'll try less. I'm thinking really hard about the Standard 400 point superhero. Of course, this puts me right in line with the point you made!

 

"I love it when a plan comes together."

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

There are quite a few JLA members you can semi-plausibly build on standard starting points. You'd just have to avoid the high cost ones like Superman' date=' Wonder Woman and Batman, and instead focus on the likes of the Flash, Green Lantern, Hawkman, Aquaman and the Atom.[/quote']

 

Hyper-Man has some 400 point write-ups of Superman and Wonder Woman that look good. I agree with you that they'll look better with a few more points and I'm considering throwing 50 points at 'em just to top them off. I'm thinking Aquaman is a lock, since one character is an ancient pre-sinking Antlantean wizard. Well, that, and I've always been fond of Aquaman.

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

I had the old DC RPG with that system' date=' never got to play it but it was a good read. i really loved the "trading cards" of the DC heros that came with it. Was tons of fun reading up on all those stats [/quote']

 

I was late to the system. I never owned it until Blood of Heroes: Special Edition, by which point the DC stuff had been removed due to loss of license, and never had the opportunity to play it.

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

As someone already beat me to the punch about my JLA thread (thanks Kirby!) I would also suggest digging into the Code vs. Killing Complication/Disadvantage (there's a link in my signature below on this topic as well).

 

Welcome to HERO!

 

You also might find some useful info at this great fan created website:

http://www.killershrike.com

(A good place to start might be http://www.killershrike.com/GeneralHero/HEROAnatomy.aspx)

Thank you, Hyper_Man! I love your JLA thread and write-ups. They are inspirational reading.

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

Another thing to note for this conversion. I do not know how DC Adventures handles things, but due to HERO's concepts of "getting what you pay for" "accurate" (and I use that term VERY loosely) representations of published characters can vary wildly. Building Superman in HERO with accurate representations of his stats would easily come out to 650 or more points (based on the guidelines given for stats in the examples) However, some characters, like Batman, could easily be built on far fewer points (depending on how far you want to go with his gear.)

 

Of course for what you are doing it is really easy to "modify" the scale of the stats somewhat to allow them to fit into the game. For instance, if you are running a 400 pt campaign you might state that the "max" stat is 60-80 pts. If you consider Superman to be the strongest person in your campaign, he gets max Strength (say 60 for this discussion. Its a fairly common cap) You then build the rest of your heros relative to that (Even tho 6e suggests that STR 60 can barely lift 100 tons, in YOUR campaign STR 60 is as strong as Superman and everything is relative to that). You can do the same for other stats as well. (Flash is the fastest character, so his DEX is 40 and that is the max, everyone else buys DEX relative to his 40, Batman has the biggest EGO, so on and so forth).

 

I have frequently seen recommendations that you keep SPD within a range of about 3-4 points. Flash may be the fastest man alive but it would generally be recommended that he still only have a SPD of about 7 (due to issues with the gameplay experience if he is faster). Average heroes about 4-5, etc. You also want to keep OCV/DCV into a relatively tight range. A difference of about 5 CV is generally enough to be considered an autohit (if OCV is higher) or automiss (if DCV is higher) and even a difference of 3 is enough to make it a fairly safe bet. Just something to keep in mind.

According to the DC Adventures Hero's Handbook, Superman - built on 290 points - has a Strength of 19 with Enhanced Strength 4, Limited to Lifting (giving a 23 STR for lifting purposes allowing him to lift 200,000 tons). DC Adventures uses the MEGS philosophy of (roughly) doubling scale with every point of ability. In case you don't recall Mayfair Games' DC Heroes RPG, MEGS stands for Mayfair Exponential Game System and improving an ability by 1 point doubles the power of that ability. To double it again, just add another point. It's obvious, even to a newcomer like myself, that Champions Complete is not a MEGS-style game. I'm ok with that. I like your idea of capping characteristics to reflect the prowess of the iconic members of the JLA. Tasty food for thought there.

I really appreciate the heads-up on the SPD/CVs. This is pure gold as far as I'm concerned.

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

Just to add my two cents to this, most "Standard" characters, using the "non-lethal" blasts, could actually put an "everyday Joe" in the hospital in one hit, if not the grave. Designed lethal (Killing) attacks would kill most normals in one hit as well.

 

But you wouldn't do that, right?

Sammael. Really?

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

Walk before you run.

Sound advice. I think I'll follow it.

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

Standard is where most start. Most of the leaguers are "standard" heroes. Only a couple are mythic.

You're right of course, but I can't help feel that I'd more often rather play Batman than Robin. Having just visited a thread where some of the JLA big guns were crafted at 400 points, I must say that I'm a lot more inclined to consider Standard.

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

Welcome to the boards!

 

I would actually use the KISS method and keep it simple. With you just starting, I would say to use the 350 point character method if you have 5E, or whatever the 6E is if you have that (I think 400?).

 

For starting out, I would use pre-made adventures so you (hopefully) don't get stumped. Now, to get a better feel of the game, you might get your players to have one character each (again, I'd recommend pre-made) and you do combat against them with one villain per character and just do a knock-down-drag-out fight to understand combat. The noncombat skills are pretty much self-explanatory and/or understandable by reading their entry in the rules book.

 

Also, let your gaming companions understand that Batman wouldn't be built on the same points as Wonder Woman, who wouldn't have the same points as Superman. But in the HERO System, you can make Batman-like, Wonder Woman-like and Superman-like characters on the same amount of points so that everyone starts off the same. In Champions (5E; presumably in Champions Complete) for 6E), the superteam called Champions has Nighthawk who's based off Batman and Ironclad who's based off Superman and Kinetik who's based off the Flash (minor differences, such as Ironclad not flying). Just modify them to fit your preferences.

 

EDIT: Hyper-Man actually created a thread called The Classic Justice League starting members on 350 points. I haven't seen that thread in a long time, but I believe it has some (if not all) those characters in 6E form strewn about as well.

Thank you, Kirby and I'll look for that thread right now.

In Champions Complete, a Standard Superheroic character is based on a maximum 400 point budget. I must confess to being prejudiced by the "Standard" portion of the term. It sounds weaker than Justice League. Silly me.

EDIT: Just discovered the link in your post. Thread is very good and will be a great help to me. Thanks!

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

Welcome to the Boards Sammael! and to Champions. Hope you enjoy it.

 

650 is a really high benchmark for your first campaign in the rules. You may need that to create copies of the JLA that you feel are accurate representations, but that is A LOT of points for this system and can bring in a number of issues.

 

Unfortunately I am unfamiliar with DC Adventures and so cannot comment on any conversions.

 

Mostly just wanted to say Hi!

Hello psyber624!

Well, if 650 is that high... I'll have to think harder about it. Thanks for the tip.

The main thing for me is that I don't want the players to feel like they've got Heros just starting out in their careers. I'd like them to be roughly comparable to the Justice League.

Re: How do you feel about House Rules?

I've too many other demands on my time these days to work on many House Rules. I used to game with a few cleverly hand-crafted rules every game I ran and I ran most of the games our group played. I do have a couple in a DC Adventures game I'm currently running, but that's only because the rules are so poorly done. The Champions Complete game I'll be running next look to be sans House Rules (so far).

Though, you never know... I might just HR a d20, roll high replacement mechanic.

Ok, just kidding.

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

Alternatively, is there any sage advice for a new Champions GM?

I've recently started a DC Adventures Campaign that I'm switching over to the Champions Complete rules set when I can (I'm still reading the rules). I'm not in a hurry to make the switch. I want to do it right. So I'm learning the rules now. Once the theory is down, we'll play some combats then a couple of one-offs before actually switching. I plan on using DC characters and plenty of home-brew characters. The DCA Power Level of the campaign is 16 (out of 20). I'm currently considering 650 point characters. I'm looking for any advice I can get as to point levels and any caps or restrictions that might be prudent for a JLA level team.

Re: Champions Complete. This is more like it!

Thanks for the kind words' date=' Sammael. Glad to hear you're enjoying the book! [/quote']

 

I am enjoying the book very much, but thank you for making that possible!

Hello everyone! I'm new here. New to the forums and (mostly) new to Champions.

Until now my only experience with Champions was way back with the release of the 4th edition hardcover. I was to be a player in a campaign that never got off the ground. We rolled up characters and that's as far as it went. I recall loving the character creation (I designed a shape shifter), though it really was too much freedom for me back then. I also remember feeling very nervous about the mechanics of the game. Still, I had never before played a superhero game and I really wanted to.

Decades later, I've decided to get back into roleplaying and I'm going to run a superhero game (because I still want to play one and this will be the only way that'll happen). I checked out the 6th edition Hero System/Champions option, but declined after I discovered it would require 3 large books and, worse still, I was having trouble tracking down a physical copy of 6E1. In my searches I failed to uncover the fact that Champions Complete was being released soon.

I ended up with DC Adventures, primarily because it reminded me of Champions. The rules look alright, in general, but they are sloppy. 9 pages of errata sloppy. Had I checked into the errata prior to purchase, I would've saved myself some cash. The slop goes much farther than the errata, though. The rules are poorly organized and poorly written even where they're correct. So, in growing frustration, I cast my eye once again upon the available superhero roleplaying games.

And I finally saw Champions Complete. I bought it on the spot. I'm still reading it now, but what a contrast to DC Adventures. Champions Complete is well written and well organized. It's a joy to read and wonderfully cross-referenced. The book itself is not as lovely as the other game by design, but also because the lamination is already beginning to peel away from the cover. Still, I'm in love. This is how rules should be written and published.