ideasmith

Normal Range (-1/4) (6E1 page 154)

Alternate Combat Value (-0) (6E1 page 318)

Attack Versus Alternate Defense (-1) (6E1 page 325)

Perceivable (-1/2) (6E1 page 387)

Subject To Range Modifier ( -1/4) (6E1 page 388)

Works Against CON, Not EGO (-3/4) (Seems About Right)

Responds To First Person To Give Relevant Command/Statement (-1/2) (Seems About Right)

Belongs To Different Sense Group (Mind Scan/Telepathy only) (-0) (Seems About Right)

Total (-3 ¼)

But:

Based On Con (-1) (6E1 page 153)

Why the discrepancy?

Re: Duplicates that are smaller

I suggest Shrinking, No Endurance, Persistent, Jointly Linked to Duplication. The cost depends on both the number of duplicates and the active cost of the Duplication power.

Edit: Since both the primary character and the duplicates would presumably have this, the duplicates would not therefore be different from the primary character.

Re: Sleep Deprivation

Those rules seem a little harsh to me.

Does the edit fix this, or is it still too harsh?

IIRC' date=' the old 4th ed Horror HERO book has rules on Sleep Deprivation. I could be wrong though, it has been a while seen I read through it. Someone want to open up their copy and confirm this. [/quote']

 

I haven't read that book.

 

Funny' date=' I was just asking about this.[/quote']

 

Not coincidence, as it happens. Your question inspired me to post this system.

 

I think the effect should vary by genre - Dark Champions and Horror would likely have more harsh rules than Golden Age Champions or Pulp.

 

Any specific suggestions?

Sleep Deprivation:

If you have slept fewer than eight hours in the past day, you have one level of sleep deprivation per hour you are short. If you have not slept in the past 48 hours, you have one additional level of sleep deprivation per 24 hours without sleep after the first 24 hours. Thus a character who has not slept in a week has 14 levels of sleep deprivation. Sleep deprivation is recalculated as needed.

Each level of sleep deprivation inflicts one level of incompetency (6E1 page 419). In addition, you regain one less Stun and one less End per level of sleep deprivation each time you take a recovery. The incompetency is ignored on any phase in which you spend Endurance, but the recovery penalty is not.

Sleep Deprivation and Life Support: A character with Diminished Sleep replaces 'day' in the above with 'week' if 1 point of diminished sleep or 'year' if 2 points of diminished sleep. A character with 3 points of diminished sleep is immune to sleep deprivation.

Re: Staggering SPD- 5th Ed.

Per 5ER page 361, Post-Segment 12 Recovery has no effect on Held Actions.

Re: Post "gotchas" here

Just to be a jerk...why is that the purview of images instead of Change Enviroment again...sorry' date=' this always BUSTS my logic processes[/quote']

 

As far as I can tell, nostalgia for the pre-4th-edition way of handling light. (I might have a different answer if I saw any point in the no-positive-effects rule for Change Environment.)

Re: Post "gotchas" here

Quick question for those of you who accepted the "flashlight as Images" build (I always preferred Change Environment, but Images seemed to become canon):

 

 

Did you handwave away the "successful PER roll makes it dark again" thing? Seems reasonable, since I can't imagine anyone wanting to turn on a flashlight and not see it, but I'm just curious. This discussion has me considering trying something in the structuring of all three powers....

 

Thanks!

The answer for 5ER is: Since Easily-Perceived Images (5ER page 191) don't have any chance of fooling viewers, the PER roll is presumably treated as automatically successful (since the base effect of succeeding at the PER roll automatically occurs).

Re: Summon Willing Targets

 

Teleportation, Usable As Attack +1, Ranged +1/2, Line of Sight +1/2, BOECV +3/4 (target can choose whether standard defense or Mental Defense applies), MegaScale (1" = 10,000km; can be scaled down to 1" = 1km) +1.5, Only vs Willing Targets -1, Increased END Cost (x3) -1

Active Points: 42 / Real Points: 14 / END Cost: 12

Why 'Usable As Attack'? Since only willing targets are to be summoned, wouldn't 'Usable By Others' be sufficient?

Re: 6E1 & 6E2 help

 

Now there is a lot to digest, it took me a while to go from the level/class everything is handed to (some say forced upon) you style of games to the wonderful wide-open toolkit that is Hero System.

Mutants and Masterminds does not have character classes, and Mutants and Masterminds 'character levels' are nearly identical to HERO System AP Maxima.

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

Gotcha, thanks. I assume the Limitation aspect will be those occasions like ice-ramping straight up or something, when you could simply cut the beanstalk out from under him?

 

Or does having a Physical Manifestation successfully target turn the power off for a period of time?

I an enemy hits the ice slide and gets through the ice slides defense, the ice the characters 'Running Usable as Gliding' is turned off until the character turns it back on. Since Running and Gliding are Movement Powers, this would be a Half Phase movement action.

As written, Physical Manifestation turns the power off. It does not prevent the power from being turned on again.

This seems a good time to repeat that I do not have 6E yet, and my comments refer to 5ER.

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

Thanks to both of you.

 

I'm a bit confused, though: an "ice slide"-- which I would assume sort of sits there for a bit, particularly if you're riding it across a river or something-- has the same DCV as the character? Wouldn't a large immobile object have a DCV of 0? Certainly no more than 3....

The ice slide is being formed as the character moves (as per Ice Man of the X-Men), and breaking an old piece of ice slide would have no effect on the power. The portion of ice slide which one needs to hit is moving with the character. (And it's the characters base DCV, not the characters DCV.) Not that stationary objects shouldn't be a possibility, but Ice Man style ice slides aren't effectively stationary, since the portion to be hit keeps moving, even though the ice slides per se are stationary once created.

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

Ideasmith: can you explain "Physical Manifestation" to me? I don't have 5er, and am hoarding my cash for 6e.

Physical Manifestation as currently written works as follows: When the power is turned on, an object appears which has the DEF and BODY of a Breakable Focus and DCV equal to the character's base DCV. When the object is broken, the power turns off.

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

(I don't have 6E yet but my 5ER comments maybe relevant.)

I only allow the Focus Limitation if the object actually gets taken away (as strongly implied in 5ER pages 292 and 295). Non-Focus power armor that is part of the hero costume would be Only In Heroic Identity (5ER page 302). Non-Focus power armor that gets broken would Physical Manifestation. (Alas, a version which is not in the book. I hope that Physical Manifestation (5ER page 302) got greatly expanded in 6E.)

I still think that calling the Limitation 'Gets Taken Away' rather than 'Focus' would add much clarity.

Re: Post "gotchas" here

Although I understand the reluctance to disclose game design philosophy in the rules, I really wish Steve had put his philosophy on AP caps directly in the book. He has indicated (although I'm not sure whether it was on the Boards) that he does not consider AP caps to be a rule of Hero system, and he will not design the system to accommodate AP caps.

 

I'm inclined to agree. A power that only does knockback, or is otherwise heavily limited, also becomes problematic with AP caps. Many unusual abilities that are fairly costed using real points have inappropriate AP costs. Changing that would require a revision much broader than anything changed between 5e and 6e, and I include the loss of figured characteristics in this.

I am not sure that having 'active' Limitations which count towards active cost and 'passive' Advantages which do not is that big a change. Even if it would mean sometimes using the real cost formula for active costs and the active cost formula for real costs. Nor am I sure that this wouldn't solve (or mostly solve) the problem.

Re: Normal Human

Oops. Sorry.

And I quote my previous post...

 

 

Champions 5E. Not HERO 5ER.

 

Upper LHS of page. Column on edge rather than in main body text. Page number is even in the alphabetical index at the end of the Champions 5E sourcebook.

 

The only reference to NCM in 5ER is on p19-20 tacked inappropriately under Age.

(Inappropriate because actually -reading- the section makes it clear that Age and NCM are independent DisAds. One can take both Age and NCM simultaneously. NCM is not a sub-catagory of Age RAW although NCM limits can be modified by Age.)

 

EDIT: Ghost_Angel quoted below

Re: Normal Human

Someone asked for a 5ER reference to a GM changing NCM for game balance purposes.

 

Champions HS5E p58 _Adjusting Normal Characteristc Maxima_

 

I am so pumped to be able to finally provide the references people ask for!

*bounce a bounce a bounce*

Page 58 of 5ER has the descriptions for three skills (Demolitions, Disguise,and Electronics). It also has a picture of a guy with a "KICK ME!" sign on his back. It does not have any reference to Normal Characteristic Maxima.

Re: Normal Human

Elite MA => DEX at NCM

Tough as Rasputin => CON and BODY at NCM

smart as Sherlock Holmes => real close to the NCM cap but not at it. Say 18 in a 20 NCM world and 23 in a 25 NCM world.

(Remember even Sherlock said that both his brother Mycroft and his arch-enemy Moriarty were smarter than he was.)

Also need very high Intuition and Deduction skills to simulate Bats mental talents.

 

Don't see how any of this penalizes Batman.

 

 

Nope. I do not have 5ER.

5ER page 41 gives "Elite martial artist" as the Benchmark for Legendary Dexterity.

5ER page 40 defines Legendary Dexterity as "21-30".

5ER page 41 gives "Rasputin" as a Benchmark for Legendary Constitution.

5ER page 40 defines Legendary Constitution as "21-30".

5ER page 41 gives "Sherlock Holmes" as the Benchmark for Legendary Intelligence.

5ER page 40 defines Legendary Intelligence as "21-50".

The description of "Legendary" (5ER page 41) includes the sentence "The upper limit of Legendary is the upper limit of human attainment."

Re: Normal Human

I really really want to just bow out BUT just look at NCM double cost for anything over 20. You know maybe its for the best those crazy inflated stats need to be contradicted. You did bother to notice anything over 25 is legendary even then. Look at the frickin' STR chart and seriously tell me they need stats in that range. I can't beleive youcan't see any way but your own

 

 

Here's a decent NCM Batman in this thread

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67230

 

Now I'm done Ideasmith you're now on ignore so I won't reply back.

The link is to a 250 point "write-up" of one of the most experienced characters in the genre. I can take it for granted that Batman has a lot more than 250 points. This 'Batman' has neither a Batmobile nor a Batcave.

Re: Normal Human

That GM would be a moron.

Probably true, but also beside the point.

Re: Normal Human

We are not talking about Powers. We are talking about stats.

 

Unless most PCs in your game world tend to have better stats than Kal El, Supes does not have the right to the NCM DisAd.

 

Bats and Cap get NCM because they are ordinary flash and bone who regularly face opponents with stats and physical characteristics impossible for the human body as we know it IRL to encompass.

 

I don't house rule NCM to fit characters. I house rule NCM to fit game worlds.

 

In a world where agents can and do sometimes have primary stats as high as 25 w/o being supers, NCM being based on a primary stat limit of 25 makes sense. (...and having NCM fit the game world has been canon since at least 4ed.)

 

Making NCM 1.25x higher allowed me to have more variability in what "normals", including agents, can do. That made it easier for me to keep agents at ~ -3 to hit supers for game balance purposes.

Sound like you have also moved the top of the 'competent' category 1.25x higher. However, setting the Maxima at the top of the 'competent' category will penalize characters such as Batman, who is as agile as an Elite Martial Artist, about as tough as Rasputin, and about as smart as Sherlock Holmes, to use Benchmarks from page 41 of 5ER.

Having NCM fit the game world may have been canon in 4E, but I see no such rule in 5ER. Do you have a page reference?

Re: Normal Human

Only if he were still on Krypton...

If the GM is willing to house-rule the Maxima up to Superman's level, it doesn't matter whether Superman is on Krypton. (More GM's would adjust the Maxima that high if the campaign were set on Krypton, but that's beside the point.)

Re: Normal Human

I don't have a Batman but I have other characters that do just fine.. I don't see why you need to see a write up to know you can make these characters without going going over the NCM and "losing points" If fact as long as you don't go over the amount gained by the disadvantage I don't see how you're losing points. skill levels etc can handle just about you need for performance. note I feel champions universe does suffer from characteristic inflation so that may be your disconnect.

Every write-up of Batman I have seen – and I've seen a number of them while websurfing, so this is not specific to my gaming group – would have lost points from NCM.

I have never understood this complaint. If you take NCM and stay within NCM or under the amount you gain from it you don't lose points. if your game is such that normal humans need to go higher then don't use it.

 

I really don't understand this losing points unless (a) you abandon internal logic and normal humans can go crazty with above 20 stats or ( the character is about as normal a human as Captain America and shpulddn't take it.

According to the rulebook (5ER page 40-41), characteristics don't count as superheroic until 31+ for physical characteristics or 51+ for mental characteristics. Your 'internal logic' contradicts the rulebook. Yes, characteristics above 20 are for exceptional normal humans. Any normal human superhero is, almost by definition, exceptional.

Re: Normal Human

This is easy.

 

Use whatever stats represent peak human genetics in your world (if they are not 20's, then you will need to redefine NCM to that maximum. I use 25 in my game worlds).

 

Then throw in a few Heroic Talents.

 

Then buy mondo amounts of Skills and MA.

 

Toss a few General Levels in for icing.

 

...and you get the Batman that even Supes does not want to F with.

(Because, as has been demo'd many times in the canonical material, Bruce -can- and -will- defeat Clark if allowed to dictate the circumstances of the ecounter and is given enough time to prepare.)

If one is willing to house-rule the Maxima upwards to fit the character, one can give Superman NCM. After all, NCM has not effect on what Powers you can have (5ER pages 329-330).

Re: Normal Human

Sounds like a problem with your write ups to me. Just face it' date=' such sweeping statements do not stand up to all campaigns and there are campaigns like Ki-rin's and mine where it works just fine and is a useful tool.[/quote']

 

If you have a write-up of Batman that does not lose points taking NCM and can do what Batman does in superhero teams, let's see it.

 

Until I see such a write-up, I will assume that forcing Batman types to take NCM penalizes an genre-appropriate character concept.

 

If I feel the need to identify normal humans with a game mechanic, I will pick a mechanic that does not cause this problem.

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

Except that for a character to NOT have blood or a brain usually requires the purchase of multiple automaton abilities as well as possibly shapeshift and life support.

While characters with no blood or brains will usually have Self-Contained Breathing &/or Takes No Stun, there is a big difference between 'usually' and 'always'. (The other power stems you listed seem irrelevant to whether Choke Hold works.)