Wardsman

Another quick question. If I said that these villagers were for an Oriental themed game, how would that effect the build?

Which country and time period? That is needed for east or west.

The question was, can a level based game system handle X character?  And I think I've demonstrated that they can.  The question wasn't "can a level based game system duplicate X character at 1st level" or "are level based systems free of any problems".  Because clearly every game system has its issues.

 

But slamming D&D or Pathfinder because you can't perfectly mimic some character idea at the very beginning isn't fair.  Hero doesn't do that either.  You can't play an archmage at 100 points.  Not very effectively anyway.  A 1st level character is supposed to be someone at the beginning of their career.  Saying "I want to play a character who already has a lot of experience" is fine, but the mechanic for that is to play a character with a few levels under his belt.  It's not really a valid criticism to say "this game is bad because I can't play a 5th level guy in a 1st level game".

This meaningless without context. What constitutes an Arch-Mage depends your setting and magic system.

D&D for better or worse has certain assumptions on power level, what constitutes a high power spell, etc that not everyone likes. Nor does it translate well into most skill based systems

Nor do their ideas of what is a high level spell always work.

• The golden oldie is the Wish spell. In AD&D it took a Wish (9th level) to raise a stat permanently.
• How about Cacodaemon (8th I think)? That can be a much lower level spell in Hero.
• In fact the whole spell level concept has to have special rule in Hero, Haven't found one for Wizard level I like

I don't use Wish spells BTW. There are better ways of simulating if it is needed at all.

I'm  running into this with Harn as well. What might be a a Level X power in Harn  Master is level Y in Hero unless I want jigger the rankings.

Would you say a Rune Rank (Priest, Rune Lord or full sorcerer) in RQ is weak?

Runequest shies away from twinkle twinkle and twenty orcs die in its magic. Though a Sorcerer with high enough multi-spell could pull it off. But their High level characters are dangerous in their setting.

D&D makes assumptions in world setting and style of play that doesn't always translate well into other systems . We discussed this in the paladin thread. I've tried tell people this in Rune Quest. If you want play a wandering Rogue you don't play an initiate to a Thief God. Those gods are city specific. Wandering Rogues initiate as Trickster. His shrines are everywhere and yes he has Thief and Murder aspects as well as Jester.

Thieves running with Paladins? Really? I Always stated that since Dwarves tend to be Lawful Good and their thieves suck a picking pockets and sneaking, that Dwarven Thieves are Locksmiths.

System matters as well. How damage works plays a part. Go read the threads on mimicking saving throws . My question is why bother? Why have two classes that based on European crusading knights(except one can't use a sword)?

Why can't mages heal? Why is someone mucking around in a cave in full plate? Now there is a game designer who has never been caving.

massey, on 25 Dec 2016 - 6:04 PM, said:

I also think he's a knight without armor in a savage land.

His fast gun for hire heeds the calling wind

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Paladindrome, where do you roam?

Who is?

I view paladins as an elite, religious class of knights, Charlemagne or Knights of the Round Table, who vow not to their liege but to their faith.  The religious orders try to bring peace and justice and truth to the world, but sometimes they have to draw that sword, and that's when the paladins ride.

But what separates them from another warrior or knight?

First you need setting info, especially metaphysics. But assuming we are talking about a something akin to a D&D paladin. I'd say build a warrior or knight that has a made an oath or pact with a power. Thus receiving the package deal that gives him whatever paladin powers you want him to have. However it should reflect the power he has bound himself to.

Sometimes paladins look like this

 

broken link

Im writing up some villagers and im thinking that in villagers would have a social limitation. The question is how many points. And perhaps a cleaver name for the disadvantage.

I'm facing this myself with a Harn conversion. the Genteel folk will have perks in 5th terms while thralls, serfs and such limitations.

Haven't got details filled out yet.

One thing that often gets ignored in Fantasy games is the notion of chivalric weapons and how only nobility can wield them.

This varied with time and place though.

Translation: Hero is unfamiliar and they have already invested a lot of time in learning a complex system. The investment to learn a new system seems steep. Plus, there is the urban legend that Hero==Difficult Math. I know this to be an urban legend because I am about as mathematically inclined as I am avian. I can build characters and play Hero just fine.

Dude don't you know? As Hero system gurus we all have differential calculus at 18 or less?

According to this Paladins have expanded somewhat in fifth edition.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?373592-A-Guide-to-the-D-amp-D-5th-Edition-Paladin-through-the-eyes-of-a-3-5-Player

Now here is my problem, why can't a ranger take Oath of Ancients?

It seems to me the weapon styles should be fighter/warrior related. The oath powers and other tricks could be powers based on the warrior dedicated himself to a cause/religion/ or power.

This is the point in the discussion where I like to point out that the word "paladin" has a long history and originally referred to a high-level government official. The word originates in Rome, referring to people who worked for the agencies on Palatine Hill (from whose name the word "palace" also derives). The concept of paladins as chivalrous warriors more or less started with the Twelve Peers of Charlemagne, who were mostly warrior types (like the famous Roland) but were a diverse lot and even included a sorcerer. Yeah, back then, a wizard could be a paladin, because "paladin" referred to your place in the org chart, rather than your abilities and proficiencies.

 

Having said that, I have to agree that the strongest distinction in my mind between a "cleric" and a "paladin" is that I picture a cleric in robes and a paladin in plate. I can't really generalize beyond that without having more information about the nature of magic and divine powers in the setting (which hasn't been specified).

 

In my homebrew fantasy setting, there's no such thing as divine magic. Lots of members of religious orders are also mages, but that has more to do with their access to an institution of higher learning and nothing to do with power of the gods. Divine intervention is either much more subtle than that or much, much LESS subtle. There's also no reason that a mage can't wear armor, so you could certainly have a warrior monk who knew magic, and that would look a lot like the D&D Paladin class.

 

I guess in my world, a "paladin" is just a priest who knows magic, is rich enough to run around in plate, and plans to get into enough trouble to make wearing plate worthwhile.

 

So, I rambled a bit, but there's your answer.

Good historical background. Didn't know about the sorcerer amongst Charlemagne's peerage.

Most people only know Cleric and Paladin from D&D usage. When you say paladin they mean a D&D style one. My Knowledge of D&D is dated to AD&D where Clerics wore armor and  arguably carried chivalric weapons. I assume current rules haven't changed them too much.

Originally in the Harn setting Priests didn't have spells. But everyone had Piety Points to ask for miracles. I kind of like that.

Glorantha also informs my ideas on holy warriors and priests.

A lot depends on the setting!  Is it based on Medieval Europe? Monotheistic vs Polytheistic?

What does your pantheon look like? What are powers of the Gods? Do they interfere directly and in an obvious manner? Or are bound  by some compact to do so in a mysterious and deniable manner(Harn)?

That will help define the followers of those gods and their powers. A Warrior of Raa or Horus might it some ways look like a Classic Paladin but differ in others. What about Warrior of Set? Set wasn't evil just a rival of Osiris and Horus. There is even a combined God Form of Horus & Set

Classic D&D Clerics and Paladins assumes a certain metaphysics that I would argue doesn't even work in most current D&D settings.

IE All clerics can Turn Undead even in polytheistic settings.

​They are like little powers, or talents, that affect other skills. Things like jack of all trades, linguist, etc., have an affect on the cost of related skills. Check 6e1 96 for a quick rundown. There is a much more detailed discussion with more applications like you've been discussing, including how they may be created, in Hero System Skills, pages 46-52. See especially the "expert" skill enhancer on page 47. It relates to the other discussion you directed me to, I think. There's also an in-depth discussion of skill trees and how they relate and affect each other in chapter 2. Check it out if you haven't.

He seems to be referring to 5th edition Ultimate Skills. Excellent book. I'm basing my spell research rules off of ideas in it.

I'm also tweaking heroic stat range a skill breaks based on ideas in it to fix complaints about characters in low power settings.

Standard Skill enhancers are usually limited to  one type of skill. 

"Expert" is one that crosses types but restricted by subject.

I'm thinking of creating one called Student of the Arcane.

 

Okay, as it turns out, I summed up the notes on the idea for a pool based around skills in one post in the rebuilding MA from scratch thread in the Hero Discussion forum. Hopefully, this link works, If not, I'll copy the whole thing.

 

http://www.herogames...-6#entry2544607

 

Ultimate Skill also discusses skill interaction with power frameworks on p. 60.

It discusses putting skills in pools.

need social limitations and perks for social status thrall, serf, slave freeman.

Yes there is a distinction between slave and serf. Thrall is nordic and kind of inbetween.

What is interesting is that it is a true medieval setting and a lot common fantasy weapons are chivalric and cannot be carried unless you are the proper status (well born).

I see them being very similar as well; priests are the ones more interested in souls, in caring for the people, in teaching and healing, while Paladins are the ones that go out and dispense justice, fight evil, and protect.  Very similar missions but one is more proactive than the other.

The problem is/was in AD&D that clerics still wore armor, carried morningstars and at low levels could hold their own with fighters

Even the earliest editions of the game they tried to come up with a non-warrior cleric. They were called cloistered clerics but were more of an npc class than a pc class.

What I Learned Playing Hero System

 

I learned that I don't have to play just "A Fighter."

 

There are a thousand ways to be a warrior, from Assassin to Zombie-Hunter, from rude Barbarian to cultured Duelist, from unprincipled Bandit to chivalrous Knight. And no matter how I express my character as a warrior, that still does not have to define the whole character. The deadly Gladiator who goes berserk in combat may, in between fights, long for the day he can retire and never again have to shed blood. The Ranger's skills at pathfinding, wilderness survival, and the stealthy infiltration of enemy camps, may be as valuable to her and her allies as her skill with bow and sword. The literate, cultured Mercenary Captain may have studied, in addition to history and tactics, just enough dweomercraft to sense the presence of magical energies, and may even have an assiduously practiced counterspell in store as a surprise for an ambushing wizard.

 

I'm not playing D&D anymore, and I haven't been for 20 years. Instead of having to use one of a limited number of character concepts concocted by the game designer, I can come up with any character concept I choose, give it the abilities justified by the concept, and if the Game Operations Director agrees it's reasonable, I'm ready to play.

 

 

 

 

I learned I don't have to play a "Mage."

 

I can play a character like the Gray Mouser, a dabbler in magick.

I can play an alchemist who brews potions and makes some items but doesn't "cast spells" as such.

I can play a character with a wild talent, untrained and perhaps untrainable.

 

If I'm running the game, I can have any magick system I choose. I can even have one like Runequest, where EVERYONE has some spells.

 

I'm not playing D&D anymore, and I haven't been for 20 years. Instead of having to use one of a limited number of character concepts concocted by the game designer, I can come up with any character concept I choose, give it the abilities justified by the concept, and if the Game Operations Director agrees it's reasonable, I'm ready to play.

 

 

 

 

I learned I don't HAVE to play a "Cleric" as defined by D&D

 

A religiously oriented character does not HAVE to have "spells."

A character good at healing people does not HAVE to be some kind of priest, nor do they HAVE to wear armor or be exceptionally good at fighting.

Contrariwise, a warrior who is skilled with a sword can also have First Aid, Herblore, and possibly even (setting permitting) a Healing Spell.

 

I'm not playing D&D anymore, and I haven't been for 20 years. Instead of having to use one of a limited number of character concepts concocted by the game designer, I can come up with any character concept I choose, give it the abilities justified by the concept, and if the Game Operations Director agrees it's reasonable, I'm ready to play.

 

 

 

 

 

I learned I don't HAVE to play a "thief."

 

Just because I want one or more of: Stealth, Climbing, Detect Traps, Disarm Traps, Pick Pockets, Pick Locks, Pick Locks on Pockets, etc. does NOT mean I MUST buy them all; nor that I cannot also have spells, martial arts, or the use of any kind of weapon or armor I care to. And it most certainly does not mean I have to take Kleptomania, or a Watched by the Watch, or anything else that restrains how I play my character or specifically defines me as a "thief."

 

Instead of having to use one of a limited number of character concepts concocted by the game designer, I can come up with any character concept I choose, give it the abilities justified by the concept, and if the Game Operations Director agrees it's reasonable, I'm ready to play.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

What I learned from a palindromedary....

Golf Clap!

I find Paladins and Clerics to be two sides of the same coin. After all they are both based on the same archetype, the Crusading Knight.

When begin converting Clerics and Paladins to a skill based system like hero. It becomes very obvious.

Clerics become better at holy miracles while Paladins are better at combat. But each can do both.

My suggestion is that their holy schtick be built on end battery or charges that only recharge when they perform rituals or prayer to their god.

As well as having a -1/4 limitation power only works with the favour of the god.

For a different take on divine warriors look at Rune Lords from Runequest.

Orlanth and Stormbull are gods that let barbarians be divine warriors who fight Chaos.

Zorak Zoran's Death Lords are an berserkers who rage at both Order and Chaos.

The Swords of Humakt are closest to D&D paladins but even they have a twist.

Posted Today, 08:47 PM

I'm all about not paying to suck.  END Reserve in that respect has bugged me forever.  That leads me to a house rule: if you have an END Reserve that has its REC Limited in some way, you can take a Limitation on the Powers that draw on it.  Call it something like Draws On END Reserve With Limited REC, and its value is related to the value of the Limitation on the REC.  Half that Limitation's value?  I'm not sure yet, but that feels right.

 I must respectfully disagree with crusher bob. I can Remember when END reserve was a limitation. I remember when it changed too(4th Ed). And I agree with the change. Broke my heart to rebuild him but I understand why.

The Amazing Starfire (Light Elemental) had all his powers bought through that.

Here was the problem. Since all of Starfire's powers  ran on an END battery. He could get knocked out, recover with just 2 stun and END, groggily stand up and cut loose with a laser attack that would slice open a tank.

That is why it is no longer a limitation. That is why your not paying points to suck if you use end reserves!

We had team set in Atlanta during the late 80's called Metaforce.

One the of team members negotiated a team sponsorship with Coca-cola. We reluctantly went along ic wise most of the team found it distasteful and dub the team member who pushed for it "Capt. Lunchbox". Sometimes to his face.

Though we did  a few promo tours. At least one game involved how we could use our powers or looks to promote product.

I was running a light elemental with holographic powers.

I like the idea of a wizard being worn out after using magic and needing a rest. My inclination is to use LTE rules for magic, but that seems a bit too costly and limiting. A warrior could swing a sword all day, but a wizard could only cast spells until his LTE is drained, and wouldn't be able to do anything even more mundane to be useful because he'd be too exhausted, with no recovery until much later. It seems too punitive. Is there a way to manipulate the LTE rules so that it returns at a rate faster than REC/5 hours (if I remember the rule correctly)?

 

So I'm thinking an Endurance Reserve with the Double Endurance Limitation. This would draw END from the reserve as well as personal END. The END could be recovered, but the Reserve would only recharge as a slower rate. This way a wizard could cast spells until the Reserve is spent, but still have the END to do other non-magical things. He wouldn't become totally useless to the party. The drawback with this is that it doesn't make using magic costly enough for my taste. Is there a way to allow for END to be used when LTE is spent, but then only recovered at the rate of LTE? 

 

If I do go with the Endurance Reserve, what's a good number for that? Any ideas? I'm thinking spells in the 40 AP range for beginners, with some of them, like defense spells, being constant. It seems the Reserve would have to be big enough for defense to be practical for several Turns while also using attack spells. But what's a good number for the Reserve? I have no idea on this one.

 

Any suggestions are most welcome!

First question why isn't the fighter facing LTE if is pushing himself?

One thing I haver been thinking for a setting is Mages must gather the spell energy into an END reserve that does not recover.

That costs LTE but all other spells must use that reserve.

Assuming 6th still uses 1 END per 10 active points, make every spell use 1 END per 5 active pointsas a campaign rule.

Or require LTE at 1 per 20 active points.

Delayed effect is optional. 

In fact there is nothing stopping you from allowing players to have instant spell attacks and/or half phase actions.

If you don't want the rapid spellcast for your feel of magic that have to tweak the system.

Now Rune Quest has three types of magic.

Fast and easy Divine

A slightly slower but still combat oriented battle or spirit magic.

And a long and involved sorcery system not suited for battle unless they learned to hang spells or were in the backlines.

Only because Batman hangs on to the kryptonite and will use it when the man of steel gets too big for his britches...

Melting or dissolving kryptonite(an element, isotope of iron in DC) would not stop its radiation effects.

Fantasy HERO doesn't have any of the system's core rules, it is longer because it has exhaustive descriptions on how to run various genre's of Fantasy, lots of optional rules, and lots of random useless quotes from various books/shows. You can't play Fantasy HERO with just the Fantasy HERO book. Meanwhile you can play Fantasy HERO with just Fantasy HERO Complete. The expanded equipment and equipment price tables are my favorite thing from FH, with my next favorite being the Alternate Item Creation system (where you purchase custom powers which represent the ability to create a given magical item, instead of paying for the item it self).

If you just need a price list though, you can use Pathfinder's Economy without too much trouble. Just look for Ultimate Equipment online, the Pathfinder Reference document is freely available online, and contains all of the price tables from the aforementioned book in a neat, easily searchable format (you can even easily bring it up on mobile devices)

1. Cantriped you really must explain how the 6th edition Alternate Item Creation system compares to the 5th edition
2. We had the economics debate before. I haven't seen pathfinder but tend to not like the D&D prices. I did acquire a copy of the well recommended by the board rolemaster supplement "And a 10 Foot Pole". And it looks very useful. But I have 12th century prices lists from the Robin Hood Supplement. Not sure if Lionheart has a price guide. I heartily suggest those sources for those who need them. & a 10' Pole has multiple time periods in its lists. It goes from the Stone Age to Information Age.

 

More constructively, I'm starting to look at how I would put together a magic system in this game. I've discovered "Charges" and this seems the way to replicate a D&D wizards "memorize spells in the morning" system. How in general should I handle that a Wizard selects only X amount of spells? I.e. I could create a Fireball spell and a Lightning spell that both had three charges, but how would I simulate there being three charges in total that you could allocate between them so that a player has to choose which they think they'll need in advance? Is there a way?

I don't know what it is called in 6th Edition but previous editions had an advantage called Delayed Effect which allows a mage to precast the spell then "hang it" as some people say.

Delayed effect assumes there is a campaign rule that limits the numbers of spells a mage can have active.  Say Int/5 or so many actives points. I use int/4.

FH 5th edition also suggests also having a campaign rule for how many spells a mage can have prepped. Say 2 or 3 times what the active limit is.

Personally I don't like the memorization feel. But i get something similar in my Harn rules.

I require all arcane spells to take at least take extra time (1 turn) limitation. 

They can get around that using the following:

• Fast casting at a -3 added to the arcane roll which lets them cast in a phase instead of a turn
• Build with the lingering advantage
• Build with delayed effect advantage
• Build with Trigger
• Learn to enchant items

You can make all spells instantaneous or require long rituals. Or you can require mages to gather energy in focuses (END reserve) via a tiring ritual(costs LTE) and that energy is used to cast spells.

You are not stuck with the D20 model if you don't want to.

Killer Shrike has good points his/her site for replicating D&D or building something different.

Things from 5th edition or their 6th equivalent I suggest as good limitations for spells.

1. Ritual Limitation, you can still cast spells as rituals without it by voluntarily taking extra time and using teamwork rules to gain a bonus to arcane rolls. But a spell built with it must be cast with X amount of people depending on the level taken.
2. Window of Opportunity limitation, This is the only cast during the full moon (Once a month) or only during Solstice and Equinoxes (4 times a years) limitation.
3. Side Effects or Backfire, Usually Side Effects only happens if you fail to cast the spell. Backfire is when it happens no matter what.

If you want spell levels I suggest (active points +real points)/15. I haven't found a Wizard level system I like yet.

I may just use a perk system mimicking the Harn setting. Or not bother.

Don't forget that items made of  metal were heavier and often tougher than modern stuff.

Xtra time in application/casting.

I like the possible dispelling by water or some other substance depending on if it was mud like or not  say like a dye.

If it could be washed off maybe continuous effect?

Think full body magical ointment. Historically it was camoflage.

But in RQ it was a magical ointment that acted as armor.

What limitations represent having to cover the whole body and little or nothing on?

RISUS is roll high. But I do not know about Role Master.

My experience has actually been the majority of games I play use roll high. And all of the most popular system do (D&D X/Pathfinder, Story Teller, Fate, Palladium, & Savage Worlds). So for me it is a matter of taste some like roll high, others like roll low and I don't care which. But for my 7 year old roll high is easier.

I think you need to double check on storyteller Roll high doesn't work with 9 again an 10 again mechanics.

The target # is normally 8. Characters with 9 again or 10 again mechanics hit easier not harder.

To me the d20 roll high should just the way of AC.