Wardsman

When you get into Urban Fanasty it gets to be much less of a disadvantage. Pretty incredible things are possible with technology, including large scale holographic projections, "terrorist attacks", gas leaks, hallucinogenics, and just plain mass hysteria. Things caught on film get dismissed as editied or doctored, pictures are photoshopped, etc. I would say with a decent PR department and 10 points of wealth you'd never need to worry about it short of hundreds of people turned into frogs permanently or the like. The Dresden Files covers this in some depth with the reporting that Karen Murphy does through SI.

 

- E

When is last time you saw holographic displays on the street?

Ah, I had forgotten that little tidbit. (page reference: 6e1, 314) So End would be:

 

17 (AP of Naked Advantage): 2

20 (AP of STR used to raise attack to 2d6+1): 4

 

So 6 END per use, 18 END if you strike 3 times.

 

- E

He is using 5th.

I have managed this question by going a little outside of the existing rules and creating my own disadvantage. Mind you, this is a custom house rule definition, so your mileage may vary. However, it is at least defined by a common Hero System disadvantage: Limited.

 

 

"Materials:

Limited Power, Uncommon: -1/4

 

Materials is a limitation defining a spell that requires a physical item to be consumed when cast. Unlike charges, which establish an absolute limit on how often a power may be used in a given period of time, materials are easily recovered and do not limit the caster to a number of castings as long as the materials are present. Normally, there is no need to keep track of the materials while the caster remains close to a source. If a caster maintaining a constant spell loses access to his materials, the spell is immediately interrupted.

 

Materials have an inherent "obvious" disadvantage: it is clear to anyone observing that the caster is using these materials to maintain or fuel her spells. Materials are common in nature: sand, bugs, incense, water, twigs, braided long grass, special colored stones, bound strings, etc. They are easily accessible (normal combat maneuvers to grab, disarm, etc. may remove them). However, for all their vulnerability, they are also extremely easy to replace, and pose relatively little delay if they are lost.

 

Preparing new materials in battle from your own storage (in next pocket, in another pouch, from the backpack, etc.) is a 1/2 move action.

 

Examples:

 

Lored, the Druid, uses acorns to cast his “Nature’s Wrath” spell. Whenever he wishes to smite a disrespectful interloper, he hurls a charged acorn at his target, which explodes on impact. While he casts the spell, the acorn glows brightly green, is hot to the touch, and hums audibly. If he was to lose his bag of acorns, he would not be able to cast the spell, but it would be easy to obtain replacement acorns… as long as he was close to a forest.

 

Kayl, the Water Master, uses a small water pouch to feed his powerful water spells. He shapes and guides his water to form a wall to protect his comrades from the archers on the tower, while they attempt to escape by climbing the keep’s outer walls. The water in the pouch glows and floats around him while the spell is active. As long as he has the water pouch on him, he can maintain the spell. However, a clever magician, knowledgeable in Water magic, spots Kayl’s pouch, and correctly deduces that he is using it to power his spell. With a well placed fire bolt, he burns the pouch to a cinder and all the water spills out. Kayl’s water wall collapses. Fortunately, his friends have already reached the other side, and are out of sight. Kayl knows all he has to do is get a new pouch and fill it with water to be back in the magic business again. But first, he must run away."

Why not use focus expendable? is it  just simplification on your part?

I do that with my custom light effect that just images at half price.

I would argue at least OAF in the above case.

<shrug> Okay, your game, do what you want. I was just trying to help.

 

- E

Look at the example at the bottom of p. 279, 2nd column,  5th Ed. FH.

They are running the previous example of a sword creation on p. 278 through the alternate process. In both cases they give OAF and then some.

Remember under this version of Create Effect you don't get the -2 independent bonus on the item.

I'm just going by RAW.

Right, but you are applying the limitation twice. If you apply the -1 on the first step you should only apply the -1/2 on the second. You don't get the -1 for it being a focus twice.

 

- E

sez who?

Technically the focus in the second step is raw materials not the the finished wand.

Huh? Emphasis mine:

 

What am I missing?

Example: Wand of Magery

END Reserve 50 END with 5 REC: 10 AP

+2 to all KS related to magic: 10AP

Total 20AP

Limitations: OAF -1

Real cost of Wand of Magery : 10 PTS

Create Wand of Magery: base cost 10 AP

OAF Expendable: Wand must be crafted from wood from a rare type of tree that has been struck by lightning. -1 1/2

I don't -- not for my Dagrike setting, at least.

very low magic. I'm building a basic toolkit myself that may change from setting to setting.

Mostly on spell where spell END comes from.

For my part, I go with the expanded Weaponsmith Skill (5E FH p. 96-97) and more advanced additions to the Fine Weapons list (p. 183-184). The idea is that magical weapons and other objects are created by master craftsmen, not wizard enchanters. The Skill Roll penalties for magic effects are of course steeper than for the more mundane ones, and can only be created under exceptional circumstances and only once per effect.

You can have both and I like your thinking on that.

You think a crit on Swordsmithing  would create an unreal weapon?

But how do you build a  wand of fireballs?

LTE is a trivial barrier for item creation. 

Skill is not expensive either, generally. And I would greatly prefer wands to swords, myself. =)

 

So I would probably want a couple of recipes. The first would probably be that Wand of Magery to make it easier to make other wands later.

 

8 PS: Wandmaker 17-

2 KS: Wand Making 11-

2 Wand of Magery

3 Wand of Fireballs

 

So for 15 points I can make a wand of Magery. That gives me a bonus to my rolls for wandmaking, meaning on average I will make a regular wand of magery every hour (I make my roll by 6 on average after the complimentary KS roll offsets the -1 for AP). If I make 8 of them a day (start at 8am, stop for lunch and take a long siesta, start again at 5:30 PM after dinner and make 4 more before bed), I will suffer 0 LTE for the day. I would probably wait for a really lucky roll on one to get me a wand that added +4 instead of +2, since that would help future wand creation.

 

That should give me enough money for the supplies for a few wands of fireball. If they are 30 AP you would need an additional 1/4 limitation to make the points 3 RP (I would suggest dropping concentration and switching to Full Phase). My Improved Wand of Magery would offset the AP penalty for this wand and I could start turning out wands of fireball pretty quickly as well.

 

This is just a demonstration of what could happen. Obviously, YMMV. You will probably want to require research for new "recipes". 

 

Steve Long suggests the active penalty be applied to both rolls, I tend to go -1/ 5 AP. Both would affect how much a boost a player gets. I have to mull my tradition -1/5 over in regards to that.

after all 10% of 15 active points isn't much. It takes a 50 point spell to hit 5 points per 10 %.

I was looking at a way to build a weak (low active point) enchant that could on a good roll create  moderate item.

Looks like like if I did that I need to boost the bonus and start all enchant spells at low lever for balance or come up with a reason ther 50AP spell only get 10% boost while the 5 or 10 AP lowlevel spell gets a higher boost.

 

A couple side notes: You are double counting the OAF limitation, I think? The wand is made from the rare lightning struck mulberry (or whatever), correct?If so, then the OAF would be -1 on the "create wand" then another -1/2 on the "create wand of magery", instead of -1 1/2? Also, these wands have unlimited charges? Or you require some sort of limitation on offensive ones? 

Strangely enough I only have -1 OAF, It should have a more due difficulty in finding a lightning struck tree.

I didn't have a Focus in the Create Wand. Though you could argue it does apply with expendable.

 

Sounds like you are tending towards magic items being both powerful and reasonably easy to create. If that is what you want, should work fine.

 

- E

 

yes and no. You still need to spend some time and LTE to do it.

And you need an appropriate craft skill.

A wand maker won't be able to forge a sword unless he has that skill as well.

I'm finding out that a lot of people are not familiar with the Create effect.

 

I must admit it took awhile for me to warm to it. Mostly because I dislike enchanter class or schools. I think you should have to go to a pyromancer who knows how to enchant to get a Ring of Fire.

 

I dislike Enchanter classes that can make Ring of Fire one day and a Wand of Cold the next without knowing those spells or schools of magic.

However Wayland the Smith and Dwarven Artificers don't bother me. 

No I don't know why.

 

Anyway the Create effect goes back to FH 1st edition. Tula Morn has Smith style of Magic built on it. And I've been thinking about a ritual system where it is the main effect and the characters must build their tools.

 

It is one way to do in enchantment(create magic items,curses)  in Hero System. By default it uses an existing power effect with all its modifiers as its base effect to which you add advantages and limitations not unlike differing Differing Modifiers for Usable By Others on page 177 of the original 5th Edition Hero System.

 

The Create effect I'm using is from page 279 of 5th Edition Fantasy Hero, top of the second column. I've been told there is a version in 6th editions FHC.

A non-fantasy use would be to use it to stat out Green Lanterns ability to create backup  power rings. Or a nanotech seed that creates bases or vehicles.

 

In such a system you don't use the independent limitation. Nor do you pay character points for the magic items or enchantments on the land or other characters. The cost is time and LTE to create the enchantments!

 

You start by defining the effect you want in the item or enchanted on a person or place. Remember, rules as written, an effect with its modifiers is a different effect than  the base effect. Example 3D6 RKA Fire AoE Conforming,  is a different effect than 3D6 RKA Fire. Add your advantages and limitations for the effect. This becomes the base effect for the Create effect which has it's own Advantages and Limitations.

I think this bit of recursion is where people's minds rebel.

 

 

The base time for Create is 1 day per 10AP. It is considered to be No Range, Instant power that cost 1 LTE per 10 AP.

Shortening the time is an advantage .  I think there are adders for doing multiple items. And you can add standard advantages and limitations.

 

 

Example: Wand of Magery

 

END Reserve 50 END with 5 REC: 10 AP

+2 to all KS related to magic: 10AP

Total 20AP

 

Limitations: OAF -1

Real cost of Wand of Magery : 10 PTS

 

 

 

Create Wand of Magery: base cost 10 AP

OAF Expendable: Wand must be crafted from wood from a rare type of tree that has been struck by lightning. -1 1/2

If I wanted to require that this be done in his Sanctum Sanctorum, Casting Circle,Spell Lab or Inner Sanctum I would add Immobile

Basic Incantations , Gestures, and Concentration (1/2 DCV) - 3/4

Requires two skill rolls (Wood Carving and Magic)                  -3/4

 

Total limitations -3

Real cost : 2.5 or 2

Create Wand of Magery Cost  2 character point, -1 to rolls, costs 1 LTE to cast

 

Description:

 

Using wood collected from a rare type tree that has been recently struck by lightning,  the mage takes a day to handcraft the wand before enchantment.

 

Note: The magic Item does not cost character points but can be destroyed by dispell or suppression.

The same is true for Create effects where the target is the land or a character. (I'll post the tattoo magic effects later)

Found some interesting rules in ultimate skill.

Since I'm going to require two skill rolls, one create or forge the item and one to enchant,  I thought I'd use them.

The first idea is to reduce the time it takes to make the item based on how much the roll is made.

The base time is 1 day  per 10 active points unless modifiers are applied.

I think I will let the player shorten that based on his crafting roll.

Say making it by 3 point moves it up one step on the time chart.

Meanwhile making his enchant rule by a few points could lead to a more powerful item if the player wants to expend the extra LTE.

if the Skill Roll is used to operate a power with the Requires A Skill Roll Limitation, for every point the character makes the roll by, he can (if he chooses) increase the effectiveness of (i.e., Active Points in) the power by 10% (or some other amount). The character must pay the extra END for the bonus Active Points used.

 

I think that might add some flavour to the system.

Originally I was going to apply a +3 to enchant rolls if the character made the item himself and -3 if he didn't. But the using the Create Effect system has its own bonuses and negatives for that. I still may apply a negative if someone else makes the item but allow complimentary rolls like I had originally planned.

How about you create a simple table that ranks how likely/coincidental it could be, and then assign it an appropriate modifier.

 

Easily Explained: +0

Curious: -1

Odd: -2

Downright Weird: -3

Ok, Something's Going on: -4

DID YOU SEE THAT?: -5

 

Alternatively, you could make it exponential, and assign much larger penalties.

 

Then you just need to evaluate what the kind of criteria divides these groups. I'd suggest most of the weight is in the SFX, so people who take IPE are more likely to get "subtle" scores than those who take the Visible Limitation.

I see also being very situational a fireball near a known gas leak is much coincidental than normal.

The luck scale may help in discerning how radical an effect is.

Some people may not care about this unless running a urban fantasy.

Harn is the first traditional fantasy I've seen with is built in. It surprised me.

Mage: The Ascension, Mage: The Awakening, and Shek-Pvar magic from Harn all have a concept of mages doing magic that could be explained away. The first two games call it coincidental magick. They have system that penalizes blatant magic. I haven't seen anything in the Harn rules that gives bonus or negative yet based on how obvious the magic is. Doesn't mean that Harn doesn't have system for it.

So do any of you have an idea for building systems to replicate this? Say bonus on casting if it can be explained or a negative if it is blatant magic?

Apprentice level Ring of Spell Storing

This item is for settings were casting spells take longer than a phase.

Naked Advantage-Delayed Effect for up to 15 AP: Active Cost 18.75

Limitations- Obvious (ring glows on spell release) , Inaccessible Difficult to replace -1

Increased END -1/2 extra time -1/2 (if spell already has this move down the charts) -1

                                                                                                                total limitations -2:  Real Cost 6 Points  

This ring allows an apprentice to precast up to 15 active points of spell and store in the ring ( Limit INT/5 or whatever GM decides).

All normal spell limitations are fulfilled during precasting. The ring requires the spellcaster to take extra time and energy above what is normally needed to cast each spell.

Releasing a spell is a 1/2 phase action and ring wearer is full DCV. END is pay during precasting not the release.           

addendum: One could treat the 18.75 Active points as int and give the ring four spell slots independent of what the mage can prepare in advance.

I am looking to create a set of lower powered magical items for use in FH generally. These don't have to be fully built powers, although if you want to do that it's obviously fine as well. The purpose is to have a list of minor items that can be used as treasure or made available for purchase (where appropriate). I will start with a couple and add more as I come up with them. I am primarily looking for items that will not greatly affect the gaming world, are low in active (15 and under) and real points (5 and under). Expendable or not expendable are both fine. Please don't assume any particular type of magic must be present (nothing that relies strictly on Vancian or RM magic systems for instance). 

RM?

I do not see how you need Hulk or Banner in Abdominations/Emil Blonkies trial. You have dozen of eye witnesses for the Abdominations misdeeds, one of wich is a Multiple-Star General.

 

Because we have this thing called the constitution. You may have heard of it.

Ok  th

I'm more worried about letting the continuous No range EB provide light as a SFX.

But I think it legal as long as the area small at most a hex.

 

Just rechecked Sphere of Shanakar. I will have to rethink that last line. At 10- roll in Hero terms the spell illuminates a radius of about 25 ft(just over 8 yards/ meters or 4 inches). 

It does 2d6 ethereal damage(harn system) if you touch with it, You can't throw it except at much higher levels.

 

This is looking like a in the spirit translation of this effect. Not unlike the D&D fireball exercise. How many different versions have I seen of that?

 Ok looking at source the main effect is the illumination the damage is secondary.

I've decided to have a light effect based on Images for 5pts( unless I change my mind and use Change Environment).

a 4" radius is +1/2 for 7.5  or 7 AP  --- No range -1/2 , RSR -1/2,  restrainable-1/2 , Incantations and gestures, casting only -1/2 total -2 real point = 2 CP

EB 1d6

AVLD Only natural defenses apply (3/4),  Lingering  1 minute (+3/4)*  12.5 or 12 AP      --- Common limitations -2, linked -14  6 real points 

                                                                                      Total AP 20                                                                  total real points 8

(20 ap /10+ 8 RP/10) = 2.8 Level

I was shooting for first or second level, but it is a start.

Will use rules either 5th edition FH or Ultimate skill that let the mage boost the effective active points either based  mage rank or how much he/she succedes.

Since the description is an 2" globe of ethereal flame and the damage is not the main effect may reduce eb further and let skill boost raise it. 

I'll work on it some more. Will go with the Susceptibility for ethereals

* lingering is in 5th FH.

Well then, just bake the two together into an And power, or Link them. I'd go with link.

 

And others than mages can use Multipowers. There are weapons that make the most sense written up as MPs -- there are a couple of threads (probably archived) that discuss the Japanese weapon kusarigama, as an example, or an axe with a backspike would be a MP with a regular HKA slot and one slot with a HKA, AP. Not to mention a boatload of other, personal abilities.

I just don't like frameworks in heroic. Not wrong per se It is just not how I learned to do things.

Also makes hard to build this as a low level spell if you have spell levels.

It does bring up an interesting theoretical point. What determines if the attacker pays for an effect or that the effect is built into the defender's power as vulnerability or susceptibility? This actually comes up a lot in fantasy.

Since all ethereals are supposed to be affected by Ethereal Fire and Water like the regular elements affect regular matter, it could argued that that should be required in all desolid builds in the campaign.

I'm more worried about letting the continuous No range EB provide light as a SFX.

But I think it legal as long as the area small at most a hex.

Just rechecked Sphere of Shanakar. I will have to rethink that last line. At 10- roll in Hero terms the spell illuminates a radius of about 25 ft(just over 8 yards/ meters or 4 inches). 

It does 2d6 ethereal damage(harn system) if you touch with it, You can't throw it except at much higher levels.

This is looking like a in the spirit translation of this effect. Not unlike the D&D fireball exercise. How many different versions have I seen of that?

Multipower, with one slot EB, and another with RKA, Affects Desolid.

Might work but a bit complicated for a simple spell.

I also tend to shy away from frameworks in heroic level.

1. Seems too much like SH, Frameworks in heroic level didn't pop up until 5th edition
2. It is not fair to give "mages" frameworks and not fighters, thieves etc.(yes I know some people do)

Can't the Champions Universe, as published, merely represent the future as it would become if heroic PCs didn't (don't?) sufficiently alter the world in a previous age?

Nothing states you can't change or tweak things in setting.

UNTIL was always call UNIT in my games and Viper Hydra.

Transdimensional?

I'm thinking stun only EB with NND or AVLD(natural defenses). And requiring a susceptibility or vulnerability on desolidification to let the ethereal element attack to affect the desolids.

One spell I saw was small ethereal fire globe to provide light. At lower skill level it stayed in the hand. At higher level skill it could be thrown.

I'm thinking making that a small EB as above and let the light be a SFX be a gimy.

What to do about Ethereal Fire and Water?

Fire mages can conjure Ethereal Fire. It requires no seed(fuel or flame), does not interact with inanimate matter(armor doesn't affect it), and it has lesser effect on living beings but affects ethereals like normal fire affects normal matter( sounds like stun only EB by treat as normal fire against desolids).

So how to model that in 5th?

As I recall from the section on LTE, one point of LTE is worth 3 CP for calculating the effect of Adjustment powers.

that is in 6th Right? I also hear the cost of END reserves has changed in 6th.

Maybe. You don't get all your END back at the 5 hour mark, you get to take a Recovery. If you don't have the opportunity to rest, you only get your Recovery per day. So it's possible you get your END back for the next fight, but it isn't guaranteed.

Add to that you must be resting to get that LTE recovery or else you only get your LTE recovery back per day.

I assume that the daily is due to a nights sleep but the books don't say.

This looks about right, as far as the proposed toolkitting goes. It will have the side effect of making everyman skills less reliable. I'd still suggest making familiarities and proficiencies characteristic-based (but I have to admit it's partially because I like that optional rule so much), but have them be (4+(CHAR/4)) or less for Familiarities, and (6+(CHAR/4)) for Proficiencies. This gives your baseline character the same chances of success with their everyman skills, but slightly rewards players who invest in a characteristic, and encourages them to build their skills up from familiarity to standard over time instead of waiting until they can afford a standard skill to buy it.

 

The next section to bang out the costs on, and one that is going to be much more important to your players is the costs of Skill Levels. In an ideal ruleset their cost needs to drop by 20% to remain even with the base ruleset... However we run into the issue that some types of skill levels have no room to drop (SLs for Science and Knowledge for example), and others might become overly efficient if you drop them even by 1 CP. I'm really not sure what to propose as a solution...

If you leave the costs of SLs the same, it becomes more expensive to counter the penalties associated with Requires a Skill Roll. If you also raise standard skill roll penalties from the book by 25% you are effectively nerfing everyone's aggregate chance of success by about ~15% (this value is based on my gut, I don't have the math skills to actually calculate the actual probabilities).

If you don't change the penalties you are instead increasing the chances of success for true superhumans slightly across by board, while slightly nerfing the everyman. Which might be okay, you just have to go into the campaign knowing when to expect so that you can plan your encounters and environment accordingly.

In either case I expect that you are going to see more players invest in standard skills over familiarities and proficiencies (unless they are characteristic based as mentioned above), having higher base characteristics where possible (because it is "cheaper" than SLs effecting all the skills associated with the characteristic), and using broader skill level groups over narrower ones (I don't remember the specific SL costs in 5th anymore, so I can't predict exactly which SL groups will be preferred, but Overall levels look pretty tempting in this system and if I recall they are cheaper than in CC/FHC).

I think SL's are cheaper in 6th than 5th but I'm still reading.

But back to the original thought of this thread. I think having ideas on stating apprentices could useful as they could DNPC's or followers.

Back when I played Murderer Hobo's, we use to let players run their henchmen and even use them as PC's when the main PC's were stuck in downtime actions.

Also starting a newbie on the IC process of gaining skills might be a good thing. I've been looking skill learning in Ultimate skills for ideas. This is usually waved in the main gateway RPG. But in Chaosium games somebody is always learning new skills sometime in game.

I remember my quest in RQ to learn Blacksmithing , Ceremony, Enchant and other skills to build my character a sword of power.