Wardsman

Cross posting Hero and Harn Forums

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93658-harn-hero-2016/page-2?hl=harn

http://www.lythia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=22167&p=211967&hilit=hero#p211967

Harn uses an approximate 10 second turn with spells(those that can be cast in combat)

Taking 1 or 2 turns if not more.

Hero has a 12 second(segment) turn with 2 to 4 action phases for characters.

Some Hero translations use a phase + a segment in their translations.

Harn does allow fast casting at a penalty.

Page 16 & Page 35 of Ultimate Skill 5th Edition has rules letting successful skill rolls allow faster completion for activities that take a turn or more.

So I'm leaning towards extra time(at least 1 turn)  but allowing mages to fast cast per p. 35 Ultimate Skill and bring down to a phase for -3 on skill roll.

In Harn unless the Mage declares otherwise spells are cast with incantations and Gestures.

In Hero I'd require those as well but allow to be bypassed with a penalty. Both 4th and 5th edition Fantasy hero have ideas on penalties for bypassing limitations.

I'm back and forth on Aura. Part of me likes the idea that just because you are strong willed or smart doesn't automatically give you magical strength.

But Harn calculates its magic skill base as (Aura +Aura+ Int)/3 [or in other versions Stats or Skills appropriate to convocations or College, IE Strength for Metal element]

If you do have Aura stat and you use that 3 stat formula you would want to divide by 15 to get the Hero skill roll.

Elves get a bonus on Aura while dwarves take a hit. Both are magnified by using Aura twice in magic roll Calculations.

Aura is also used along with Will In various types of mental conflict. But Will gets counted twice in that formula.

Aura could be used as a basis to calculate Arcane Defense and/or Mana in Hero as well if you use those rules.

But basing a Characteristic Skill roll on 3 stats is non standard for Hero. Another option is using whatever Arcane roll you like  based on Aura , Ego  etc . But using RSR- two skills  with the second a convocation skill or allow complementary rolls for convocation skills.

I would also apply Convocation SB modifiers and astrological SB modifiers (page 9 Shek-Pvar, Columbia Games/CG4501) straight as bonuses or minuses to the hero magic roll.

Yes that means a nasty diametric element modifier. But source material is clear, only those with a strong Aura(or whatever you replace Aura with) can master opposing elements.

Any ideas on how to handle morality points?

Religious characters gain and lose morality points that affect their rolls to get intercession.

I was working on updating some of my Champions conversions on my web site one that I've been working on for a while is an adaption of Robotech to Hero 4th edition rules.

 

One of the biggest points of contention I have in converting characters is so I simply convert the characters for (very) low cost characters, and allow them to pilot massive expensive mecha as vehicles, or do I write them up with the character, equipment and mecha on the same character sheet as foci.

 

For instance, here is Dana Stealing:

 

http://mattcave.fcpages.com/PDFs/DANASTER.pdf

 

Here is the Hover Tank she pilots:

 

http://mattcave.fcpages.com/PDFs/VHTANK.pdf

 

I converted them as a 144 point character with a 412 point vehicle!

 

Now another approach would be to simply convert the whole character and vehicle on one page, with the mecha they pilot done as a focus for some powers.

 

For instance here is a Robotech Masters Blue Bioroid done one on character sheet for 197 points. His mecha and hover sled are simply equipment. No vehicle used.

 

http://mattcave.fcpages.com/PDFs/BIOROIDB.pdf

 

So which way do you think I should go on a Robotech Hero write up? Should I maybe provide BOTH versions on my page?

Did you know about this?

One think i love in rolemaster is: the roll mean something. When you cast a spell better your roll is more difficult gonna be the resistance roll. Better your attack roll is better is the result. In your fantasy game do you have something similar? If you need to hit a 5 DCV and you hit 8 or if you make your magic skill roll by a large success is it change something ?

Hope i am clear 

English not my first language.

 

Steph

5th editions Ultimate Skill has such rules plus other ways hacking or adapting the skill.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/store/product/86-hero-system-skills-pdf/

One I'm using is reducing the time needed to something is reduced by good rolls.

Another one I plan use is a bonus effect based on the power skill roll effect.

How do you see the Spell Limitation interacting with the power skill?

Might some of the more formulaic textbooks spells be built with it but practitioners who make power skill magic rolls go on to develop versions without it?

As an aside, I am currently working a grimoire of spells for a group called "Academics". They have "fixed" spells, or formulas, meaning that once you learn them, they cannot be altered. You increase your power by learning the next more power version, which requires having learned the previous less powerful version. The costs are low, because not being able to change the spell is a good disadvantage, and all such spells are bought into a multipower (which serves as the game power balancer: you can't have a spell with more active points than your multipower) into fixed slots.

 

This drawback (spells being immutable) is balanced by the fact that you don't have a "Requires A Skill Roll" disadvantage. The spell formulas are "tried and true" and never fail. So, here's where the above effect comes in. Master wizards can research new versions of their spells, rebuilding their spell books with spells that are designed to have very few disadvantages, effectively creating a feel of wizards that only may need to "wave their hands" to make a spell happen. Like in the above example. =)

 

(As a point of cultural flavor, different academic schools across various nations have different philosophies on how they build spells: some favor physical expressions (gestures, incantations, concentration, etc), some favor risks (side effects), some favor different devices (foci: wands, staves, rings, ect), some favor charges or components. The schools maintain a level of "friendly" competition that keeps their adherents "loyal" to each school. A bit political.)

 

Academics are balanced by "Shapers", which are the D&D equivalent of sorcerers. Shapers cast spells by what ever way they wish. They don't use any power frameworks, so the disadvantages are pretty strong, but they have the freedom to alter the spell's parameters, do maneuvers with them, cast them at lesser power levels, haymaker them, or do research to alter their structure. Where an academic wizard may have to learn 3 or 4 spells, a Shaper only learns one. The balance point for Shapers is that they DO require a "Skill Roll", so have a magic skill they have to pay for, and have an actual chance of spell failure.

 

I am slightly off topic, but I only bring this up in because I still feel it will be up to you to establish the flavor of your campaign's magic. You can go with the already know "high magic" D&D concept, or you can play to any level or feel you desire. It's pretty much open territory as I see it.

I'm shooting for something that is a mix of the two myself . There is formula but there is improve aspects also.

Not at all MrK.

 I've been delving into Harns magic system a Hero translations of Harn magic.

The idea is a low level spell that at higher levels does more stuff is how that seems to work.

I also been looking at ideas from 5th Edition Ultimate skill for both research and boosts due to good skill rolls.

Harry Culpans Hero Harn notes, which I snagged before his site went down, mages have a talent (Arcane Discipline) and spells have a rank. 

A mage can learn spell rank -1 spells equal to his talent level. Doesn't pay points just takes research time. It is an interesting system.

Now he did use the spell limitation and allowed Combat maneuvers to be bought with spells.

Which fits the Harn setting.

And Cantriped I don't see anything wrong with buying of some limitations at higher levers.

The spell rank system I'm eyeing treats A spell with a lot limitations as a lower level of the same same spell with less limitations.

What does a haymaker with a spell look like? And should that be allowed if spells must take extra phase or extra segment anyway?

If they can justify buying instant change, then I don't worry too much unless I want to make things interesting.

Otherwise yes it is a real issue in my worlds. I like to keep it real. And that is a real issue.

Sometimes the players will surprise you with their ideas.

I didn't know about multi power attacks. Just read that for the first time. Doesn't seem to fit flavour for me.

Also be hard for my Arcane schools since I use RSR for Arcane. Divine is different matter. That may set divine apart.

I'll have to think on that.

Haymakers for other attacks than punch , Hmmm  I'm trying to think if w used that in 4th. Too long ago.

Could be useful. Don't have an opinion.

Tend to agree with MrKinister on Autofire yet Magic Missile is a thing.

I could see bouncing a fireball of stone or metal but finger of fire? not so sure.

I really don't see the point of stopping them from dialing a power down.

I do want magic to feel more like magic and not a super power.

But some of those tricks might not be a deal breaker.

There has been some ink spilt on these forums about this. Some of it I have seen.

But not enough discussion as to the pros and cons of using it.

Ok recap this limitation seems to prevent a lot combat maneuvers with powers being used with spells. 

Spreading the attack, Varying the output , Multiple power attacks etc. With mages having to buy combat maneuvers with spells if the GM allows it.

Detractors simply state that it should be assumed as campaign rules with no bonus.

There are couple assumptions built into this as I see this.

1. Non mages can't do some of those effects in a normal fantasy
2. Non-mages don't have access to magic
3. All spell colleges should have those limits

I generally agree with #1 but it doesn't necessarily follow in an urban fantasy or a campaign where non-mages have access to powers for any reason.

#2 not all settings exclude magic from non-mages.

#3 there might very different styles of magic. some where spell limitation fits and some which do not

#4 It may be appropriate to let advanced mages to by off that limitation.

Also in 5th edition anyway there is a lot of talk of letting mages with a power skill magic do tricks or power stunts.

Does it make sense to forbid that in one sense then let do it with a power roll?

On the other side, what genre conventions or sense of balance does limiting powers defined as spell in this manner does this promote whether you get a bonus or not?

A lot of those links were from before the current iteration of the Hero forum I believe. I would guess that the materials linked are no longer available unless you use something like the Wayback machine or something.

Search site mite find them. A person who was familiar with those links could pick better criteria.

Found an interesting site. But the links that point back to these forums are broken!

So does any have access to this system? (Looking at Killer Shrike)

Can we find those old links?

http://www.curufea.com/doku.php?id=roleplaying:hero:conversions:fantasy_hero

You might find this interesting.
http://www.herogames.com/forums/store/product/161-the-book-of-dragons-bookpdf/
 
Oh here is a video of Aronra doing the Taxonomy of Dragons for grins and giggles at Dragon con.
 
Draxonomy
"My main presentation at DragonCon was about the Taxonomy of Dragons. A silly and seemingly impossible task, I know. But I had some fun with it." AronRa

I'm trying to come up with some school names that would be good for my Aquarian Age campaign setting (where the Fae returned to Earth in the mid-1960s).

 

I've been looking for good names for the following:

 

A private school for those of Fae blood trying to get a handle on their abiiities (something like a magic version of the Xavier School from X-Men).

 

A private school for those aligned with the Unseelie.

 

A public high school in a mid-sized American town where Fae settled decades ago and now exist openly.

 

Any ideas for elementary schools are welcome as well.

Public schools are usually named after community members or something linked to the area. I don't see one being named after a fae.

Now that doesn't mean you can't use the name to foreshadow. You just have to be creative.

Mountain Laurel High or Rowen Academy

Same for the private schools unless instigated at the time of the event. I don't see a reason for them to be named in such manner, directly.

Now if there were cults or conspiracies trying to bring the fae back, that may be a different matter altogether.

How multicultural are your fae? Are there African Eshu and Native American Nunehi?

Or just celtic types?

Haven't checked any of this but just found this. 

Here is some stuff for Spirit Storm setting I found.

http://usandacat.com/thelair/category/games/game-news-spiritstorm/

http://usandacat.com/thelair/category/games/game-news-spiritstorm/

http://usandacat.com/thelair/file-downloads/campaigns-and-adventures/#spirit

Harn

http://usandacat.com/thelair/file-downloads/campaigns-and-adventures/#harn

The page has many things for various hero genres.

http://usandacat.com/thelair/file-downloads/campaigns-and-adventures/

He will be genuinely missed. I really  appreciated his errata documents. He also has an "Integrated Traveller Timeline" that he was offering on the PDF download sites. Always excellent work.

got a link?

A dragon fight with hero (fantasy). With the great fantasy classic dragon like Smaug. Great intelligence, Huge, fire breath, Spell caster.

 

Steph

Don't forget acidic or caustic blood.

I've said it before and I will say it again, what is the source of powers or triggering event?

What is the nature of the powers?

• Magic
• Science based
• Psionic
• Biological
• Technological

Answer those questions and a lot of the squares get filled in.

Is it something human science can understand , manipulate, and replicate?

Start with that.  Figure out why or at least how it happens and work from there.

Doc's right.

Define the term "Dragon" and in what system?

I remember in my AD&D days a lot articles in Dragon Magazine with the purpose to beef up dragons and their combat.

I particularly remember hacks to breathe damage and wing buffets, tail smashes, and foot stomps being added to the repertoire.

Never had a chance to throw one in hero to players. But the hero system stats for Shadow World Dragons looked awesome.

But that depends on the power level of your hero's now doesn't. How many points are they built on?

50? 75? 100? or more?

Suppose that we have a society that is similar to reality, no mutants, aliens, power armored heroes/villains. Everyone/everything operates in the same manner that people expect it to in the real world. Now something happens that causes random people to form mutations and develop powers according to the conventional superverse. Obviously at first there will be no laws, groups similar to Viper and PRIMUS or power armored beings. I am wondering how long it would take for such groups to develop and super advanced technology to appear. In addition, how long would it take for governments to step in and tell people what to do and in what order. In what order would things happen?

We talking WWII or post 911? That shapes a lot right there.  20 or 30 years ago I'd say it might take a while see powered armor. Now I'd expect an apollo style program to have something in 5 if not less.

I have all of my player's character sheets (thanks, HERO Designer!). So I know their CHA by heart. This past Saturday, one of them was attacked by a Mentalist who scored +30 on her Mental Illusions Roll (rolled pre-game, mind you). I said nothing about an attack, just played another hour or two of the game getting input from other players as if nothing weird was going on. After the Player revealed their safe house and many important and terrible things had been done over the course of 2 Illusionary hours, he snapped out of it with help from another player (1 Phase later in game time).

 

Then they learned he'd been under the influence the whole time. The bad guys beat them back to the safe house, nearly killed some campaign NPCs and made off with Arachne's Tapestry and the Important Mysterious Female NPC.

 

I think I did okay, but the pre-rolling feels dishonest. Hearing 18 dice hit the table really clues a bunch of PCs to the notion that bad doin's are afoot.  

 

Your thoughts?

No.

That is how I would handle it. But different groups have different styles and tastes.

Some people like 250 point champions while others insist on 500.

and some people just hate mentalists and it was all dream scenarios.

The above posts are correct in that no Star Hero book was ever published for Fourth Edition Hero System. However, a manuscript for said book was in development, written by David Berge, Albert Deschesnes, and Shawn Wilson, and edited by Bruce Harlick. In 1994 a playtest text copy of that manuscript, along with a playtest updated starship combat system, was circulated to the Hero online community of the time. Shelley Chrystal Mactyre has it as part of the huge diverse archives from the classic Red October BBS, the hub of Hero net gaming back in the day, which she now generously hosts on her personal website. (Many rare gems can be unearthed from those files.)

 

The SH stuff has been freely available for download from that site for many years, so I can't see the harm in Attaching the ZIPs of them here:

Ahh Red october. I used to hit that with my modem. It is where I first saw Forgotten Futures a game of Scientific Romance.

They took Victorian SF settings from books in the public domain and made campaigns out of them. The one I remember was a setting of Kipling's where Heavier than air craft never took off but they rays and some form psionics.

Now mind you this before Steampunk!

Just to add a clarification to Tasha's helpful post: To be precise, the rules for any of Hero's stand-alone genre games previous to Fourth Edition weren't really "based" on any particular edition of Champions, except to the extent that they shared a number of common system features, particularly the way Characteristics were bought and how they affected each other. While they were all labeled as variations of the Hero System, the games were all unique, similar but not really interchangeable. They came with many assumptions intended to reflect the writers' preconceptions as to how their genres "should" be played. Mechanically, Fantasy Hero spells or Justice Inc. "Weird Talents" were not constructed the same way as Champions Powers; weapons and gadgetry in the other games didn't employ the Champions Focus classifications; Martial Arts from Danger International functioned very differently from how they did in Champions; the mecha construction system in Robot Warriors bore little resemblance to vehicle stats and rules in any of the other books. Each game included unique Skills, Modifiers, and Disadvantages, and sometimes ones with similar names or in-game functions were bought or operated differently.

 

Champions went through three editions while the other genre games were still in their First Edition, which is why they're often referred to that way. Fourth Edition Champions was actually the first iteration of Hero System to take all of that, combine and harmonize many elements, completely redesign a number of things like Vehicle rules, to make the universal Hero game system we've all come to know and love.

As Tasha and LL said , a lot of us picked and chose what were wanted from each genre and mixed it in other games

I gave Cheshire Cat from Champions aura vision  from Justice Inc because I thought his weak ego blast was lame.

I still lean toward using Cloak over Invisibility for Fantasy Hero. It has a nice feel to me to have the perceptive character be able to see through invisibility.

I remember when 4th hit we went thru and commented where the new stuff came from. Example Dispell and suppress came from Fantasy Hero.

You could also use Luck as a modifier. For every level of Luck rolled, the summoned being is friendlier and/or weaker willed. For every level of Unluck, they are more antagonistic and/or stronger willed.

 

You could just be catching them on a good or bad day.

Not bad idea. 5th did introduce alternative forms of luck. However RSR seems to rely on the traditional must roll 6 system.

I'm also unclear how active point penalties apply to luck rolls in that situation. 

So while may not build the spell with luck in mind personal luck should probably be a factor.

Complication #1: Requires two skill rolls

 

Let us say you require two skill rolls.  One is KS Etiquette or Protocols of the 9 Hells or the Courts of Chaos(or something like that) while the second is Power Skill Magick or Summoning.

The Etiquette or Protocol roll gets its results off the Amicable/Antagonistic chart while the Power Skill Roll gets its results of the Weak-Willed/Strong-Willed chart.

 

Complication #2: Must know target's True Name (need a value) in conjunction with unfulfilled limitation rules.

 

Both 4th and 5th Edition have suggestions on allowing wizards cast a spell without fulfilling all the limitations with a penalty.

Sometimes it is endurance or a skill roll penalty. The latter is what I'm thinking in this case.

 

 

This kept me up all night for some reason. I kept thinking about an idea for a summoning grimoire.

It starts off with descriptions of protection amulets for the caste(Arcane Defense), containment circles(Forces Walls), a treatise on protocols and etiquettes when dealing with beings from other planes by class (knowledge skills), and a key of True Names.

This before it gets to the unique style summoning in the book. For every summoning spell or ritual has a special limitation.

One I call You Shall Be Answered. (need a value)

As the preface of this grimoire states and warns, your skill and mastery in the art calling esoteric beings from other planes does not determine If something answers with this powerful school of magick.

No your aptitude determines the subject's demeanor and the level of control you have over it.

So what I'm thinking is a roll chart. The better the roll the target has higher levels of the  Amicable and/or Weak-Willed advantage. if you fail and the worse the roll the target has levels of Antagonistic and/or Strong-Willed limitations.

Complication #1: Requires two skill rolls

Let us say you require two skill rolls.  One is KS Etiquette or Protocols of the 9 Hells or the Courts of Chaos(or something like that) while the second is Power Skill Magick or Summoning.

The Etiquette or Protocol roll gets its results off the Amicable/Antagonistic chart while the Power Skill Roll gets its results of the Weak-Willed/Strong-Willed chart.

Complication #2: Must know target's True Name (need a value) in conjunction with unfulfilled limitation rules.

Both 4th and 5th Edition have suggestions on allowing wizards cast a spell without fulfilling all the limitations with a penalty.

Sometimes it is endurance or a skill roll penalty. The latter is what I'm thinking in this case.

Yes boy and girls the author of our grimoire, who disappeared under mysterious circumstances,  may have gotten some of those True Names he listed wrong.

A few thoughts. You Shall Be Answered limitation could be based on Side Effects. But even so I want them to be considered different.

Side Effects with Summoning for me are calling something else up Like a gaggle of annoying imps when you try to call a duke of hell or EDM with a gate (you tore a hole in reality, one that leads to hell).

Suggestions please.