knasser2

7 hours ago, unclevlad said:

IF the players are familiar with it.

 

And IF they realize that running away is not only acceptable, but downright wise.  Call in Juan Rico!!!

To reassure, my games are very seldom heroic punch-the-monster style adventures. Which I suspect many Hero games are because it was designed for comic books. My games are usually intense, twisty little things where you seldom know who your true enemy is till the end and there's genuine risk of failure. And my players know that. I do have difficulties with new groups or new players. Especially those that come from a background like D&D and use phrases like "Level Appropriate". Many players do not like playing a game on Nightmare level.

But there's a type of player that needs to.

"Hello!"

8 hours ago, zslane said:

Hey, it could be a lot worse...it could be an "historical" scenario, and the PCs are stuck on Macragge when Hive Fleet Behemoth attacks...

Space Rome is attacked by a giant swarm of toothy monsters. Got to love 40K. But now I want to exploit a player's knowledge of the setting to scare them silly.

"So what's this planet we're going to called, anyway?"

"Cadia".

7 hours ago, massey said:

 

If the players are familiar with 40K, they will know what the Genestealer is and treat it with the appropriate amount of caution.  If he's talking about running an Inquisitor level game, then letting a Genestealer get into hand to hand is a potential total party kill.  And the players should know that going in.

 

If the Genestealer gets the character in a position where he can use the Transform, then he already could have torn the character to pieces anyway. 

Even if they're not familiar, they'll be getting plenty of hints. This will be the capstone mission in a (I think) trilogy of adventures. And yes, it's an Inquisitor level game. So it's more like Alien 3 where direct confrontation is very dangerous and they're thinking on their feet on how to kill it. Only unlike Alien 3 there's a creepy cult aspect to it as well. If the players aren't rigid with fear by the climax, I'll have been doing it wrong. I'm not worried about them blundering in thinking it will be a cakewalk.

13 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Then you HAVE to examine the cost and see if this is reasonable.  No, you can't just say, I blew your character out of the water with my DM power to build whatever I want.  DEAL WITH IT.  Me?  I'd probably walk.

 

How do you envision this encounter developing?  What's the situation that brings the PCs into contact/conflict with the 'stealer?  Do they have a chance to say No, we're going elsewhere...or at least, to get some info to understand what they may be getting into?  

 

Otherwise, it feels too likely to be an execution, and that is simply not fair.

I run games where people die. I'm for players who like to have to be smart, who like to know they're up against something nasty and who like to feel they've achieved something when they beat me. It's not for everyone, but then what is? The way I figure it is if the creature could as easily kill the player then they're not any worse off if they lose their character some other way. In fact, as I've written this it's considerably harder to pull this off than to simply kill them. Their team mates will have chances to rescue them that they wouldn't if it just slit their throat.

It's really going to depend on the GM what circumstances they use genestealers in - I intend to share the WH40K conversion when I've done it all (currently about a third of the way through them). But for myself, I have an adventure in mind where there's a single Genestealer purestrain in part of the underhive (A hive is a megacity, an underhive the lawless lower reaches of it). They'll be investigating a growing cult. If they're reasonably smart, they'll have a good chance to prepare for their final attempt to purge the cult. E.g. obtaining better weapons, roping in some NPCs to help with the hunt, creating some maps of the tunnels with the help of local gangers, etc. It's entirely possible some of them get picked off one by one. If it gets down to a single PC stalking alone through the underhive, playing cat and mouse with a wounded genestealer for the sake of the city, that's going to be about as tense as it gets.

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

The only reason to stat it out is to recognize its relative power. 

There's also simply learning the system (which I am currently doing) and that I want to share this supplement with other people. For it to be maximally useful, I want to have the powers properly written up.

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

The attack here won't come into play because the 'stealer is gonna be RUNNING!  It'll be trying to kill the PCs, and probably shouldn't even think about adding to its brood.  Takes too long.  Goal is to get away, with some remnant of its existing brood if possible, but if not, they're replaceable.  Somewhere else.  With less heat.  Everything posted here says, 'stealers are seriously risk-averse and selfish.  Alignment:  Chaotic Evil Cowardly.

Actually, they're fearsomely aggressive. They're essentially the WH40K version of the Xenomorph from Aliens. Yes - they use Stealth and strike and withdraw. But not really to run away, more to just keep stalking the rest one by one, picking them up. They hide rather than run unless the odds are really against them. They're absolute monsters in HTH and use the stealth to get close without getting shot more than because they're cowardly.

2 hours ago, zslane said:

In that case, I'm not sure what the point is of writing it up at all, except as an academic exercise in building powers. The "relative power" of it is immaterial if it will never be used against PCs in normal play.

I absolutely do intend there be a chance of the genestealer using its power on a PC. I alluded to it earlier when I said I expected a player to roll up a new character if it happened, but with the possibility that they'll carry on playing this one for a bit if the other players don't know they're infected.

9 hours ago, massey said:

Of course what none of them know is that the cult is really just a beacon.  The growing psionic signature from the cult attracts a ravenous swarm of Starship Troopers-style space bugs.  They intend to eat the planet, every last microbe.  When the Hive Fleet approaches, the Genestealer Cult feels an irresistable urge to go out and cause chaos.  They become a doomsday cult, blowing up bridges, assassinating important people, preparing the world for the coming of the Great Devourer.

Leave it to 40K to take a scenario where people are abducted, implanted with alien DNA and then made part of a creepy cult and ask themselves how they can make it even more horrible... "Oh, I know - lets add a bit of horrified realisation when they find that the star gods they've been worshiping are rounding them up for the digestion pits with everyone else."

11 hours ago, massey said:

Transform is cumulative by default.  I'd go with the basic 4D6, and just require that the Genestealer sit there and keep hitting you with it.  Think of it cinematically.

 

Phase 3 -- The Genestealer moves out of the shadows towards the unsuspecting crewman.  Rolls its Stealth at 14-, rolls an 11.  The crewman rolls his Perception of 11-, gets a 9.  He thinks he hears something for a moment, then shakes his head.  "Nah."  The Genestealer gets within half-move range.

 

Phase 5 -- The Genestealer rushes forward and attacks.  The crewman makes another Perception roll.  This time he makes it.  He turns around with a panicked look on his face.  He gets his full DCV.  It's a 3.  The Genestealer (OCV 9) attempts a grab.  -1 OCV for the grab maneuver, it needs a 16 or less to hit.  It rolls a 12 and hits.  The Genestealer has a Str of 25.  The crewman has a Str of 10.  They roll dice and compare Body.  The Genestealer wins.  It slams the crewman into the bulkhead.  One massive claw grips him by the throat.  Another grasps him across the chest and pinning his left arm by his side. 

This person gets genestealers!

11 hours ago, massey said:

The alien's third arm grabs his right wrist, applying pressure and forcing him to drop the mop he was holding just a moment before.  

This person gets 40K! In the 41st Millenium, lonely, steel spaceship corridors are still swabbed down by tired men with mops.

11 hours ago, massey said:

The player and the GM argue for a while.

This person gets Hero!

11 hours ago, massey said:

Phase 10 -- The GM tells the player to shut up. 

This person gets my GM'ing style!

Great post. Very helpful and totally the atmosphere I'm going for. 'Stealers are the Xenomorph from Alien, for people who thought it wasn't creepy enough. Presence attack is a nice touch. I'll let it use that.

15 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Cool.

 

We don't know the power level...and translating between systems makes this doubly hard.  He did say, this was something to face up against high-level characters, so it's not a 300 point monster.  

 

And, yes there is a point...to see, oh gee, this really is frightening.  There are occasional examples of glass cannons...monsters whose Risk is extremely high relative to their defenses.  In old D&D...the leprechaun.  Polymorph any object...for a 1 HD critter.  HUH?  And, IIRC, exceptional magic resistance but almost no physical.  Of course, your sword's now a long feather.  While it's not a physical Threat...as a challenge, it's quite a bit higher than one would anticipate.  Another, the cockatrice...that stoning attack.  Another lesson was, "It won't work very often" does not counterbalance "and...you're dead"  when it does work.

 

The point of all this is to say...recognize that the Transform is super incredibly powerful.  Honor that by not trying to cheese out the build.  If it is a 300 point monstrosity, it's a 300 point monstrosity...even if you can build it on 50. It's all too easy to lie to ourselves as players and GMs...but as a player, hopefully the GM's there to audit things.  The GM doesn't have that, so IMO has to be much more stringently compliant.  One aspect I'm so strongly against your slow, ongoing Transform is, you're taking a cheese approach while also hand-waving away quite a few problems, as I mentioned...and kind of patting yourself on the back for pulling it off.  Hey, ok, if you have to hand wave on one point, that can be ok...but so many aspects?  No.  Don't do that.  That's too much like the path the GM took that I'd mentioned, where he'd make something that legitimately cost 600 points, but ignore this, fudge that...and admire his own cleverness for squeezing 600 points of combat powers onto a 350 point villain. 

Thanks for this. It gives me a better understanding of the sort of things I have to be on guard for as a GM with this system.

18 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Yes, The attack hits once, but the target then takes 1d6/day for the next 32 days while only getting defense up to their  total power defense.

 

Because transform has codified rules for  how many points you can add to the target, you can use standard effect or just take average and build exact templates for changing normals into vampires, werewolves or xenos by adding a set number of points and varying  dice and onset times.

I thought this over and realised it didn't work. The effect really needs to kick in much more quickly. It would be fine if the urges to go away and breed crept up over the next couple of weeks, but the character needs to become accepting of the Genestealer far more rapidly. I'm also inclined to agree with unclevlad, whether it's legitimate, that it's far too cheap. Not so much for the effect on the victim because as I've pointed out, you could probably kill them as easily, but for the benefit to the attacker. It's effectively a way to create a loyal supporter with a uncapped level of personal power.

5 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

Actually, this is an insanely cheap power.  You just have to take your time.

 

1d6 Severe Transform, Damage over Time  +1; 32 charges, +2;  Targets defenses only apply once,+2;  one charge/day , -3; 30 active points. Tack on your limitations and you've got something in the neighbor hood of 10 real points.

 At first I thought that would be far too slow for what it represents but on second reading, you mean the actual attack can be quick but the effect starts to manifest over a long period of time! It's never specified exactly how quickly this happens in the fluff but I like the gradual change. It seems quite fitting.

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

This could also be done via trickery, and anyone Entangled or deeply stunned is at risk.  Yeah, I get such a person could be killed by simpler means, but still.  

 

First, while scaling a Transform for something like this is tricky...I don't see 4d6 being *close* to enough.  

 

Seocnd...why try to make the point cost sane?  This SHOULD be insanely expensive in points, given the consequences.  IMO, it's a pretty common flaw to look for price breaks because we're so focused on points.

 

Last...those Psy Lims aren't the end of it.  Is the victim aware, in any way, of these changes?  They are at the genetic level.  I think the "OMG what am I now???" hasn't been captured at all.  You're also missing the "run away from everyone that I know" that's another essential part of this.  You're also missing some MASSIVE Hunteds that would be implicit...because every other race out there, presumably, would have Kill On Sight against any Genestealer or progeny.

 

Part 1:  if this is an all or nothing to create at least 40 points of Psy Lim...that's 12d6 to me.  I get the special effect aspect that Ego Def doesn't make sense...but is this why you're not taking the Mental Transform stuff...or are you trying to cheese the cost?  Concentration throughout on the extra time?  I don't see that.  Where's the 0 End?

 

Part 2 represents a fundamental restructuring of the victim's DNA.  OK, that's a BODY Transform by my lights.  So, to start with, you need to do 2x the BODY.  You started at 4...without recognizing the doubling aspect, that might be close.  You want to make sure that it takes a VERY bad roll for the Transform not to happen.  I'd push a little higher.  Then...double it?  9 or 10d, if you want to maintain the All or Nothing.

 

Last, there's no recovery at all.  Fine.  Pay for it.  Delayed Return Rate, 5 points per 5 years *at least*....+3 1/2.  Another at least +1 to say the transform's not affected by Regen...or is it?  Or by Healing.

 

If this costs 400 points, it costs 400 points.  It doesn't matter anyway.  This is pure, unadulterated plot device.  All you need is the time required to pull this off, and the fact the vic has to be incapacitated, because those are aspects of the plot.  Nothing else has to be particularly formal...except perhaps to cover What If?  Like, what if the vic has 20 points of Power Def?  Or 2 Body per Turn regen?  But those are corner cases that you can wing as they arise.

Thanks for the full reply! I appreciate it. To clear up any misconceptions, I'm the GM. Whilst it may appear I'm trying to "cheese the points cost", it's actually just me going through the power description and the modifiers trying to work out what applies. I actually have fairly limited experience with Hero and am just trying to get everything right. I don't mind if it costs a lot - Genestealers are a very high level opponent that could solo a typical Inquisitor-tier party. Hope that context helps clarify.

Regarding if the victim is aware of these changes. Yes, more or less. But they're okay with it. It's not deception so much as it is a fundamental change in their attitude. They suddenly feel their biological need for children and starting a family. A sort of inflicted version of turning thirty, if you will. They know that other people regard the genestealer that infected them as a monster, but it's because those other people "don't understand yet." Ditto not recognizing that their child is "special". Best way I can think to put it is that they're inflicted with a sort of "family bond" to the genestealers that doesn't interfere with their thinking, just their goals. If there's someone they're especially close to they may even try to get that person implanted to so that "they can see the light".

I see what you mean about 4d6 being too low. I misread the power as needing to exceed the BODY, not 2xBODY. So probably 10d6 would be about right. That way there's a chance even if the victim is pinned, it wont succeed on the first go giving a little longer to rescue the character. Part of my difficulty might be not knowing how high BODY is likely to get in a campaign. I'm mainly basing everything on the Character Ability Guidelines table in 6E1p35. But unfortunately it doesn't include BODY, STUN, END or REC so I'm a bit in the dark as to what are normal values for these at any given level of play.

Yes - pretty much every other faction will try to kill genestealers on sight. (Or more likely run for their life to return later with a mob). I didn't get into Hunted or similar because I anticipate a player will roll up a new character (though may want to carry on a little longer for fun if the other players don't know about the infection).

No, the transform shouldn't be affected by Regen unless it's something very odd that would actually "reset" the body to a previous state (can't think of anything like that in the setting). Is there any way to make this permanent other than bulk-buying Delayed Return Rate? I can estimate something for humans (although with rejuve treatments a human could live for a couple of centuries - maybe even three). But if it infected an Eldar (Space Elf), they can live for thousands of years.

I'm porting over these lovely fellows for my epic WH40K conversion. Their reproductive cycle is giving me difficulties (and the odd nightmare). The bare bones version is that they implant their genetic material into a victim via an oviposter-like organ in their tongue. This suffuses through the body inserting itself into the host's cells. There's no cure in the fluff so far as I'm aware and it's depicted as Game Over generally. The host remains themselves in nearly all regards but their own progeny will be hybrids. Additionally they take on a few psychological compulsions. They begin to desire settling down and having children. They generally get the urge to withdraw from society (though just having enough privacy to raise their hybrid child without questions will do). They become accepting of the genestealer itself, sometimes even respectful, calling it "grandfather" or similar. Subsequent hybrid generations look more and more human until at the fourth generation they're almost indistinguishable. They can then head out into the wider world and their children will once again be full "purestrain" genestealers, starting the cycle over.

I was originally going to do this with Mind Control but the problem is that the change is permanent and there's no chance to break free. The only people I could see "fighting it" are legendary level characters such as Primarchs or Lord Inquisitors, which is way above most PC levels. So I hit upon the idea of using Transform to impose psychological complications.

This is pretty much the end of a PC, but then in order to do this, the genestealer has already got the PC in a position where it can kill you, so it's kind of a wash. You're rolling up a new character either way.

So does this look suitable costing?

Genestealer Kiss

Slot #1 (Transform 4d6, Severe, All Or Nothing -½, Inaccurate (0 OCV) -½, Extra Time (1 Turn, No Other Actions) -1½). Active Points: 60. Real Points: 17.

->Psychological Compulsion: Start a family

->Psychological Compulsion: Regard Genestealer as Friend.

Slot #2 (Transform 4d6, Severe, All Or Nothing -½, Inaccurate (0 OCV) -½, Extra Time (1 Turn, No Other Actions) -1½, Linked -1). Active Points: 60. Real Points: 13.

->Offspring are Genestealer.

Total Active Points: 120. Total Real Points: 30.

Even though it's a Mental Transformation I've skipped the Works Against EGO and AVAD modifiers because it doesn't make sense. A physically weak person with a strong mind is still going to be at a disadvantage to a large, powerful person when this thing tries to implant its seed in them.

Did I put this together correctly? Just looking for confirmation or pointing out anything I missed.

8 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

As I see it, if you have a limb that can grab and some STR usable with the limb, you don't NEED to pay points for a basic non-martial "Grab" maneuver.

 

Conversely if you don't have a limb or any STR, I for one don't think you can get the ability to grab even if you do buy a Martial Grab maneuver. It would be like buying a Fencer's Thrust or Parry without equipping the character with a sword.

 

I can't drive my Pontiac Grand Prix up to you and grab you, even though it has a STR score, because it has nothing to grab WITH. If some mad scientist equips my car with an Extra Limb, then it will have something to grab with and can do so.

 

But in accordance with the principal that if you pay points for something it should be useful, I can see allowing a vehicle with Martial Arts to be considered to have a "free limb."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I'm riding a palindromedary. How does that grab you?

 

Well then the answer has been pretty simple all along. It's just buy "Extra Limb" and perhaps a modifier to that power to lower the strength!

Thank you.

6 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

My definition of an indie game is one put out by a solo person rather than for a company; self-published.  Like the original Champions game, typed up on pages for edition 1.  Once Hero Games became a company and paid employees it wasn't independent any longer

Indie bands still hired recording studios, paid someone to master their tracks, mail out their marketing material. In fact, it was that they did all these things themselves rather than struck a deal with a recording label to handle it all for them that made them Indie.

22 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

Extra Limb.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary also suggests: A Limitation on some of the STR (Not with Extra Limb) and Stretching (With Extra Limb) to extend reach. Oh, and you can buy Martial Maneuvers:

Usin' da Klaw

Grab 'em:  1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, -1 DCV, Grab Two Limbs, +10 STR for holding on; FMove

Knock 'em down:  1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, STR damage +v/10; Target Falls; FMove

 Smash 'em or Run 'em Over:  1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, -2 DCV, STR damage +2d6 +v/10 Strike, FMove

I was looking for a way to buy the Grab Manoeuvre. That was my original question. But there's no points cost for it which is why I started the thread.

5 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

Why I'm bringing this up in the first place, however, is as a way to perhaps reorient the way we try to present the game(s) of HERO System. If you look at Jason Walters's new update of the "Champions Now" announcement, it sorta taps into this notion. Perhaps Ron Edwards is seeing what I'm seeing: presenting a light version of the Champions rules (a la Amorpous Blob), recast in the more contemporary, and perceived "indie," approach of narrative games. 

I don't think the Indie brand will help sell it (but can't hurt). It's not what people think of as "Indie". It's not small, it's not fluffy, and it has a tendency to bite. The big thing that holds Hero back - and it's also the big thing that makes it valuable - is that it's a programming language. And the market for programming languages is programmers. Most people want a finished piece of software.

Maybe that's putting it too strongly. If you want to whip up a Superhero game, I guess you sort of have to take the Hero approach to make it able to cover all the different character types. But the fact remains that you're buying a box of bits, not a box of toys.

I presume FHC and similar are a recognition of this and an attempt to provide a pared down and more focused version that people can get into more easily. A recognition that a huge blank sheet is simply too much for some people and they'd prefer a small blank sheet they have a reasonable chance to fill. And I think that effort needs to be taken. But I don't know if it's the right approach. It's still very much a blank sheet. My attempt to solve the issue was to build a much more specific setting and rule system using Hero. I may market it one day, I'm quite proud of it. But what I did was to create specific character templates not in the way Hero supplements usually do, as suggestions of "hey - you could do something like this" but as specific "Choose one of these six races. Choose one of these twelve classes". I built D&D in Hero 6e. I provided choices rather than freedom.

And it worked. I had a few people telling me I was flying against the whole intent of Hero. And you know what? I totally was. I DID turn it into D&D. But you know what? It was a better version of D&D. Because Hero is a very powerful and well-thought out system. I took what I found valuable in Hero (great rules and balance) and used it to make a finished game that people could pick up and get stuck in. If they ever want to use Hero, well, the appendix has the points breakdowns, but they don't need to. I'm convinced it has the potential to be successful if I ever get it to publishable form. I think that's what Hero needs for mass-market appeal. Sell complete games made with Hero, rather than hope to make Hero more universal by exposing people to subsets of it at a time.

22 hours ago, unclevlad said:

And what's 'big'?  Honestly, is even D&D 'big' right now?  It certainly was in the early 3.0 to 3.5 days, but now?  I'll grant that I've not even been in our B&N to check out the gaming shelves much the last several years, but my vague recollection is, it's been pretty dry.  Now, of course, D&D is the antithesis of indie, given that WotC is part of Hasbro.  Hasbro is most definitely Big.  Fantasy Flight might have quite a few products, but what's their aggregate sales?  Same with Onyx Path.  I wouldn't necessarily say that having a staff disqualifies you from being indie.

Fantasy Flight produce the X-Wing and Armada games, tonnes of board games and several role-playing game lines including WH40K (three related game lines) and Star Wars. The latter has churned out at least twenty hardback books. Even if odd games are small, their ownership or marketing by big companies like FFG disqualify them. Indie was a music term (along with an advertising schtick of "Oooh, isn't the Music Industry evil... Fight it by listening to us!") meaning not owned or marketed by a larger business. So even games like Pugmire which is small and was the brainchild of a single, home author with community support, isn't really Indie because Onyx Path bought rights to market it under their label, just like EMI bought up small, promising bands to market them. Indie really means "we made it and it's ours". Not Indie means "we made it for somebody else". Whether that "somebody else" is another company or a board of directors. It's why Monte Cook is considered Indie - because even though he's established and long-term figure in the industry, he's still someone making his own product and selling it, no matter how successful. And Richard Thomas isn't really, even if he put together a Kickstarter for Pugmire and it looks like a small press game - because he partnered with an established RPG company that deals in RPGs to market and sell it.

Hero *is* an Indie game so far as I'm aware. It's the labour of a few people (plus a lot of supplemental help) who sold it to the public themselves.

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

By that interpretation, how much non-indie is left out there?  I'll grant I'm not keeping up with the industry these days, but "big gaming company" that's not WotC seems largely an oxymoron.  Shadowrun shrank down.  Same with Storyteller's lines.  Pathfinder?  Not indie, but also weird because it's the last vestige of 3.5 D&D, and the later versions have...issues.  Would you consider Steve Jackson Games to be a "big publisher?"

Well there's Fantasy Flight Games. You can't call them Indie and they have several RPG lines. And Onyx Path might try to look Indie, but even if they're not big, they're still a professional outfit with permanent staff. Catalyst Game Labs which bought Shadowrun can't really be called Indie unless failure through your own terrible decisions counts as Indie now (it doesn't). Cubicle 7 has a real small press feel to them and I don't think they're big. But they crank out great stuff with licences like Doctor Who and Warhammer, so also not really Indie.

But honestly, it's not a word I usually think with.

51 minutes ago, whitekeys said:

Was it resent?

 

Or restab?

 

The ORKZ I know are familiar with those words.

I SENT A GROTZ FOR ME SHOOTAH ONE TIME. AND HE COMES BACK WIT ME CHOPPA. SO'S I HADZ TO RESENT HIM BACK AGAIN. IS THAT WOT YOU MEANZ?

29 minutes ago, whitekeys said:

Restraint?

OI! WE JUST TOLDS YER WE DON'T KNOW WOT DAT MEANS.

1 minute ago, eepjr24 said:

Your game, your choices. ?

 

A skill roll penalty alone is going to be way easy to beat if they face Wave Serpents on a regular basis. If you go that route, I would make it an opposed skill test. The first time or two you can assume the pilot / gunner is unaware of what they are trying. Later they can be more aware and have higher skills as "only the fittest" survive combat. If it turns out to not be a problem then no sweat, just let them keep trying.

 

All this assumes that they have something that can dent a Wave Serpent once they get past the force field. In that case, then maybe just the threat of being able to get past the FF will change the enemy strategy and make them drop troops further back or just bomb them from orbit.

 

- E

Ah, the Inquisition approach.

Opposed roll works for me. I like it and, as you say, it gives the pilot a way to respond which I like.

I don't think this will be a commonplace occurrence, don't worry! But when they do come up against one it'll probably be in some sort of siege scenario where there are convenient heavy weapons points for them to man. I run quite gritty, tense games. So every now and then I like my players to have a Christmas morning experience where they get to break out the big toys. Can't have a triumph without a challenge!

If the game line is more or less its own company, I'd call it Indie. Owned by a larger company, I would not. Smaller companies like Cubicle 7 might edge their games into the category just about, even though technically they shouldn't. The term "Indie" feels more like a cultural affiliation than a technical category to me. A sort of "We're not the Man, man!" branding. There were lots of "Indie" bands from Seattle that were corporate as Hell. Whilst something like Pugmire might be produced by Onyx Path but somehow feels more small "labour of love" game than you'd think.

5 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

I don't know Eldar stories that well and there are a ton of them out there, but I have never heard of someone exploiting the timing of a wave serpents shots. If someone wanted to try it, I would probably impose a skill roll and OCV firing penalty. I assume there are countermeasures in place for this type of thing, like random cycle times, etc. So something along the lines of a System Operations roll at -6, maybe -4 if you have absolute time sense. And then OCV penalty of -12 or so, this is considerably harder than something like a head shot in my mind.

 

- E

OCV -12 is a bit strong at the power levels for this game. Though Space Marine characters might pull it off. And I want the shield to still be struck if they fail. I think I'll just keep the first part and have a pre-roll to get the timing. It'll ramp up the excitement for the coming Attack Roll if they succeed at it. I might modify it if they have Autofire as that would make sense.

I don't expect this to be a routine thing, but I'd like to let them try.

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

Secondary aspect:  is the FF the tank's only defense?  Or does it have armor?  The FF might be taking it from Pretty Tough to Darn Near Untouchable as long as it's running.  OK, *now* you can impute the whole activation roll on the FF, only in the segment where the cannon fires, and call it a 14-.  The armor takes a bit of a pounding from time to time.  I'm still not sure that I'd ever let PCs improve on this, because again...enemy combat weapons systems have everything to exploit this, fundamentally built in.  So if it can be done, it would be done.

A bit more context. It's a troop transport / deployment vehicle and the shield is only at the front. So PCs have the possibility of getting round the sides and back with good tactics. The primary military intent of it is to charge forward into and possibly through enemy lines and disgorge a squad of soldiers (typically CQC specialists) in amongst them. It's a setting where people have actual chainsaw swords. It's pretty gonzo.

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

What IS the original?  You're inferring characteristics that may or may not be accurate.  Does this feature actually get exploited in the original material?  Does an enemy actually ever get attacks in while the shuriken cannon is firing?  

 

If the answer is No, then we have to believe the design intent is it is *not* exploitable, ergo the window is short.  A rail gun like that can be multi-barrel and the potential RoF is *insanely* high.  I'm hearing something like a capacitor-discharge kid of approach where you build and store a charge, then just *flush* the capacitor in next to no time to fire.

 

If the answer is yes, it is occasionally exploited, then that's saying the window is open for a decently long period of time.

Personally?  I don't buy it's open for long at all.  Or this thing would be toast.  Forget the PCs doing it;  ANY ENEMY would understand this one heckuva lot better from combat observations.  And with laser weapons and computerized weapons control, 1/3 of a second is an absolutely *fatal* window of vulnerability.  The enemy has the sensors, the sensors are linked into a fire control system, and the weapons have the kind of speed to exploit the characteristic.  Think of these things in the original context.

Okay. This is for my WH40K conversion. The tank is an Eldar Wave Serpent. Eldar are essentially Space Elves. Only they make regular elves look positively humble by comparison. The Eldar word for humans is "Mon-Keigh". Their technology is highly advanced. The fluff and rules for Wave Serpents has varied with the years. The originals were pure troop transports and had no armaments. Later versions made them flying tanks and added projectile weapon armaments. The force field is not their only defence. They are also quite well armoured physically. Around the same level as a human fast tank, a hair under a human main battle tank. And far faster.

Human society in the setting is verging on post-Apocalyptic. They have advanced technology but don't understand it. There are whole automated factories that churn out tanks and nobody dares tough anything for fear of it stopping and them not being able to start it up again. Technology is worshipped and ritualised. A skilled tech-priest might figure out how to pull off what you're talking about (especially if they're a PC), but chances of it becoming a widespread feature of human weapons is effectively zilch. Humanity has essentially become a cargo cult. And ork technology is a complicated subject to say the least.

The fluff doesn't say it flickers. (Though it ripples, apparently!). However, I see the RPG version as an opportunity to fill in some of the fine points that the wargame doesn't. Players will certainly ask how it's possible to go through it one direction and not the other so it's either flickering or declare you can have one-way force fields in the setting. I dislike the mental image of the latter so flickering is how I'm explaining it.

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Well there is no rule stating that your extra limb has to use full strength of the vehicle ?

WE IZ ORKZ! WE DONT KNOW DA MEANING OF RE... RES... DAT WORD WOT MEANS NOT KRUMPIN SOMEONE AS 'ARD AS YOU CAN KRUMP IM!