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Crypt

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  1. Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Do you think it would be possible to merge Blast, HTH and Killing ?

     

    For instance:

    ATTACK (----(LAST EDITION: Nov 16th, '09 at 09:13 AM)----)

    Base cost: 1DC/5pts

    + a mandatory 'No Manipulation' (-1/4 ) limitation (it cannot be used to do anything else but damage. It cannot manipulate things. So by default Attack is a limited form of STR)

    By default:

    - No Range

    - Normal damages

    - 'Normal' method of rolling damage (total=stun; 'pips'=body)

    - Add to STR : +1DC/5 STR

     

    Some possible advantages:

    - Ranged (+1/2) (or any other range advantage)

    - Killing (+1/2) (This is the official killing damage, as usual, as it works on 6E2 page 104. The cost of this advantage is the same as an AVAD vs Resistant PD or ED. Actually this IS such an AVAD, cf 6E1 p326. +1/2 is also the same cost as the one of a Resistant advantage applied to PD or ED, cf 6E1 p 275)

    - Increased Stun multiplier (+1/4 per +1)

     

    Some possible limitations:

    - Doesn't add to STR (-1/2)

    - Decreased Stun multiplier (-1/4 per -1)

    - UKM (-1/4): Uses the 'killing' method of dice rolling (total=body; body X 1/2d=stun) instead of the normal one[/b])

     

     

    Note: about Stun multiplier increase or decrease with the normal rolling method see Advanced Player's Guide p81: add or remove a number of Stun points equal to the number of dices rolled for each +1/-1 Stun multiplier.

     

     

    So:

     

    A 'HTH power' = Attack 1DC/5pts , No Manipulation (-1/4)

    (= 1DC/4 pts)

     

    A 'Blast power' = Attack 1DC/5pts , Ranged (+1/2) , Doesn't add to STR (-1/2) , No Manipulation (-1/4)

    (= roughly 1DC/4.286 pts)

     

    A Range 'Killing power' = Attack 1DC/5pts , Ranged (+1/2) , Killing (+1/2), UKM (-1/4), Doesn't add to STR (-1/2) , No Manipulation (-1/4).

    (= 1DC/5 pts)

     

    A HTH 'Killing power' = Attack 1DC/5pts , Killing (+1/2) , UKM (-1/4), No Manipulation (-1/4).

    (= 1DC/5 pts)

     

     

    Or with 1 level of decreased Stun and without UKM (in order to get results similar to the killing rolling method while using the normal one):

     

    A Range 'Killing power' = Attack 1DC/5pts , Ranged (+1/2) , Killing (+1/2), -1 Stun multiplier (-1/4), Doesn't add to STR (-1/2) , No Manipulation (-1/4).

    (= 1DC/5 pts)

     

    A HTH 'Killing power' = Attack 1DC/5pts , Killing (+1/2) , -1 Stun multiplier (-1/4), No Manipulation (-1/4).

    (= 1DC/5 pts)

     

     

     

    If we merge those advantages and limitations into the base cost then the costs are very close to the official ones, except for Blast:

    'HTH power' = 1DC/4 pts

    'Blast power' = 1DC/4 pts

    Range 'Killing power'= 1DC/5 pts = 1dK/15pts

    HTH 'Killing power' = 1DC/5 pts = 1dK/15pts

     

    If i use the normal rolling method for every kind of damage (i want to do that :) ) by removing UKM then the costs are:

    'HTH power' = 1DC/4 pts

    'Blast power' = 1DC/4 pts

    Range 'Killing power'= 1DC/6 pts

    HTH 'Killing power' = 1DC/6 pts

     

    then if we add the -1 STUN modifier to the two Killing attack the cost is again :

    'HTH power' = 1DC/4 pts

    'Blast power' = 1DC/4 pts

    Range 'Killing power'= 1DC/5 pts

    HTH 'Killing power' = 1DC/5 pts

     

     

    ////////////////////////////////////////

    EDIT: some explanations =

     

    - The Rolling methods = (====> UKM limitation)

    N atks do 1.5 more STUN than K atks

    N atks do 1.17 less BODY than K atks

    But BODY costs twice as much AP as STUN and characters tend to have twice as much STUN as BODY.

    So the ratio is 1.5/(1.17X1.17)=1.09 = very close to 1 so the rolling methods don't favor one or another kind of attack when taking AP into account (and i believe we must consider that when dealing with HERO rules. AP are the final referee.)

    BUT if we take CON into account (and i think we should) then the ratio is still 1.5/1.17 = 1.3 in favor of Normal rolling.

    Score: N1/K0

    => so the UKM limitation makes sense.

     

    - The defenses (6E2 p 104) = (====> Killing advantage.)

     

    Normal and Resistant DEFs work against N Stun and N Body

     

    Normal and Resistant DEFs work against K Stun

    Only Resistant DEFs work against K Body

     

    So K is clearly advantaged here, isn't it ?

    Score: N1/K1

     

    -The intent of the attack:

    Sometimes we don't want to kill even with a Killing attack.

    Sometimes we want to kill even with a Normal attack.

    Score: still N1/K1

     

     

    N1/K1 = no winner.

     

    ///////////////////////////////////////

     

     

    My question is = do you think this house rule would unbalance the game ?

     

     

    (About the UKM limitation : i must confess it gives me a way to get rid of the killing rolling method...I don't like using several different rolling methods, i like homogeneity and simplicity so i may use the normal rolling method all the time, simply by not selecting the UKM limitation when building powers ;) )

  2. One roll to rule them all (6E)

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: One roll to rule them all (6E)

     

    Was there an inspirational source' date=' by any chance?[/quote']

     

    None i am clearly conscious about.

    Maybe MEGS or another system where action and effect are linked.

     

     

    There's simpler: take the number you rolled to hit, and multiply by DC/3.

     

    I know that is a bit different, but BETTER different, and the only acceptable way to do 'high skill causes more damage' without completely overturning the game balance, if you think about it. Even then the whole concept is a bit dodgy in Hero.

     

    Example: you are using a 9DC attack and roll 12 to hit. You do 36 Stun. If you rolled 8 to hit, you would do 24 Stun.

     

    No lookup charts!

     

    I like charts :D, that's better than dividing on the fly IMHO and i will keep using a zero centered rolling method.

  4. One roll to rule them all (6E)

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    This is an updated and expanded version of a house rule i used with H5E.

     

    http://cryptmaster.free.fr/site/HERO/chart_6E.php

     

    It may look complex but actually it's not.

     

    It works on several modifications, let me explain it =>

     

    - First it supposes you use a roll high version for resolutions.

    Substract 11 from your scores. eg: a 14- becomes a +3.

     

    - Second it's centered on 0.

    3D6 is replaced by 2D-2D so it needs 2 dices of one color and 2 other of another color. One color for negative dices, one color for positive dices.

    Let's say you roll -4 -2 +3 +1 = -2

    It's open-ended. Each -6 or +6 has 1/2 chance to become a -7 or +7 which in turn has 1/2 chance ti become a -8 or +8 and so on.

    (note: i may give you the resulting statistics if you want.)

    For instance: you roll -3-6+6+6, the -6 +6 +6 each has 1/2 chance to become a -7 or +7. Reroll those three dices. (Note: 1/2 chance = 4+) For instance -4 +1 +6 = the first -6 becomes a -7, the first +6 stay the same, the second +6 becomes a +7. We reroll the two remaining opened rolls. -5 +1 => the -7 becomes a -8, the +7 stay the same. Reroll the -8 = -2 so we stop here.

    Total = -3-6+6+6 -1 +1 -1 = +2.

    Despite the appareance this is quite intuitive and fast. (believe me...)

     

    Then add your roll to you basic capacity, whatever it is, and add any modifiers.

    Eg: Your skill : +3; your roll +2; external modifiers : -4 ; total = +1.

    To succeed the total must be equal to 0 or superior.

     

     

     

     

     

    Well now i may explain the table.

     

    Its purposes is to merge action rolls and effect rolls in one unique roll.

    Let's concentrate on the two major informations which are the dice column and the roll line. I think you see the dice column. The roll line goes from -10 to +20. (Don't look the Fumble line now)

     

    Example =

    Imagine you use a 4D killing weapon.

    Your skill : +3; you roll +2; external modifiers (DCV, etc) : -4 ; total = +1.

    The total is equal or superior to 0 so this is a hit.

    The pure roll (without any modification) was a +2. This information is used to get the value of the 4DK weapon without having to roll it.

    Look at the 4D line. Cross with the +2 column. => you may see two lines and four numbers. 16/5 and 32/16. The first line is for Normal damages. The second line is for Killing damages. The first number is for STUN, the second is for BODY. Here we need killing results so the result is 32/16 which means 32 STUN and 16 BODY.

    If it was a 4DN attack then the result would be 16 STUN and 5 BODY.

     

    NOTES: you may see that:

    - the -10 column gives the minimum result.

    - the 0 column gives the average result

    - the +10 column gives the maximum result

    - the NS and KB of the +6 column give the active points of the effect.

    - the +20 column is equal to the +6 column added to the +10 column.

     

     

    Now let's explain the Fumble line.

    When rolling 2D-2D a -10 or worse final roll is a fumble.

    For instance: -6-6+2+1 -1-1-1-1-1 = -14 is a fumble.

    Cross this roll on the Fumble line with the Dice column.

    For instance 5DN and -14 => the NS (or KB) value gives the active points of the fumble. Here this is 23 active points. So it may be 4D1/2 dices of normal damage, 2D1/2 normal NND or any combination you like (not necessary damages.)

     

    The same -14 with a 2DK => use the 30 AP line (6D) instead of the 2D line.

    => 27 active points of fumble.

  6. Question reguarding To Hit probability

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: Question reguarding To Hit probability

     

    My main questions are:

    What do you guys think of using a 2d10 TH system?

    Is there anything in the game that this breaks?

     

    IMHO you may easily use this kind of roll without breaking the game, it's close enought to the original one and may fit to a more epic/random* feeling.

     

    * call it as you please.

     

    Some genres may even need far more explosive rolling method so seeing the very serious 3D6-closed-low roll method as sacred may be a real hindrance.

  7. Love & Hate

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    After reading some selected parts of Hero 6 i come to some general conclusions about this game.

     

    It's still the best construction toolkit ever. The power construction details are probably better than in the previous edition.:)

    But it will never be the Grail game i'd like to see...That's dramatic :(

     

    There are two reasons:

     

    - Resolutions methods, mainly the 3D6 roll low one. When i compare them to an extremely homogeneic game like Earthdawn where fumbles, open-ended, results levels, the step=average logic and the fact that actions and effects are on the same scale.... the ones from Hero look so old.

     

    - Scales and complexity. This is the deepest problem, the one i really really hate. I have no fun with divisions. When i think about logarithmic games like EABA or MEGS, Hero looks awfully old and unnecessarily complex. I hoped the 6th ed. would be a bit more logarithmic so we no longer need to divide movement, CVs or the like. But actually it seems to fall a bit more on the linear ugly side. In the name of simplicity negative CHARS have been removed. STR from 0 to 4 no longer follow the +5=*2 scale and one of the consequence is an exception in the note about lightweight objects (book 2 page 81.) Honestly, i firmly believe that exceptions only bring complexity.

    I hoped the 6th would use the exponential VF as a core mechanism instead of an option.....but actually it was removed and we have to divide meters by 6 when moving through.

    Divide by 6....that's so sexy....:(

     

    This game is so old....there are too many fans....i'm afraid it will never change.

    It could be so great if it had learned some lessons from other games...

     

     

    But i don't want to leave it because no other game has such a powerfull set of building rules, no other game elevates the reasoning from effect philosophy as high as Hero.

     

    So i have two optimistic questions =

     

    - The easier one = i already use a roll high resolution method (2d6-2d6 with open-ended) but i still think there is more fun with Successes count (like in Burning Wheel or Shadowrun) or exotic ones like in Earthdawn.

    So my question is = did someone made something like that ? Do you have an url ?

     

    - Now the hard and very important question = i remember that someone, months ago, gave an url to a logarithmic modification of Hero. Does someone remember what this url was ?

     

    I don't want to argue about the Hero philosophy. I'd just liked to save it, for me.

  12. Hero Extreme Edition

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Based on several facts, ideas, perceptions and/or informations :

     

    - the reasoning from effect principle

    - the option where Dex is splitted in three parts

    - the disappearance of figured stats and figured CVs in 6E

    - the existence of powers like leaping

    ETC....

     

    i imagine an extreme natural evolution of HERO where only Powers exist.

    No more chars, skills, etc.

     

    For instance a char like STR would no longer exist.

    You (may) pay for the abilities to lift things, throw things, have a physical damage base, etc... What we imagine "strength" is in real life would be the package of all those powers but nothing would force you to imitate reality.

     

    Nothing would be free. No running basic value, no perception basic value, etc....

    You pay for anything you are able to. If you want realism you just have to buy each pieces of this so called reality. (IMHO the majority of mechanical troubles in RPGs comes from figured values.)

     

    There would be only one kind of "char" = one or several type of bodies which would be the bases from which powers are linked to.

    Power=action

    Action needs existence

    Existence=one type of "body"

    A body could be organical, mental, spiritual, magical, robotic, totally alien, etc.....and must be bought with points.

    Each power would have to be linked to a body.

    If the relevant body is "stunned" or "killed", the linked powers no longer works.

    Because a body may be damaged it would be worth considering buying a recovery rate for it.

    You could also buy protection powers for it.

     

    Old skills would be some kind of non-automatic Powers.

     

    Some actions (powers) needs energy (mana, endurance, etc.....) which itself could a have (or not) a recovery rate.

     

    Some actions also need perception powers.

     

     

    etc...

     

    please, please just imagine it for a second before arguing about keeping the very classical (archaeological) and not Hero specific stats and skills :)

  14. 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

     

    *All the other Characteristics will remain, but none of them will be "Figured," i.e. derived from other Characteristics. They'll all start with a base value that must be bought up separately. The costs of some of them have been "tweaked" -- no further details yet.

     

    Can't say I like this change, but understand it perfectly for the sake of granularity (although I oppose too much granularity). It seems a loss of a distinctive part of the system. The trend for uncoupling stats from other stats (and possibly other game functions) needs to be closely monitored unless stats become completely meaningless.

    Costs will need to well adjusted if too much is drained from their function. I'd loathe to see them become a bland "1 for 1" cost.

     

    *OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV will become separate Characteristics, not derived from DEX and EGO. They'll start with a base value of 3 and will be bought up separately.

     

    Bad Idea and a glaring example of "granularity" sapping the identity out of the Hero Game System. I see "1 stat point per 1 character point" vanilla stats coming down the road. What is left for DEX other than Initiative use?

     

     

    In essence hundred RPGs use some kind of figured stats or derived values.

    IMHO the "you pay for what you get" principle is the very real identity of Hero, the one which protects him from the need to be physicaly accurate. (see for instance Leaping which will no longer be figured from STR. So there is no more need to wonder if it's realistic or nor to be able to leap x meters with STR y. You pay for x meters so you get it, whatever your STR. If you want realism so pay for it. I like this simple idea)

     

    Thus figured stats and CVs are only artifact of the past, the last who break this principle and it seems logical to get rid of them.

     

    Then the last artifact will be damage added from STR....

  15. 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

     

    The basic 3d6-roll-for-success mechanic remains, and it will continue to be "roll-low."

     

    >No problem, i will keep using a 2d-2d roll high method

     

    No changes to the Speed Chart.

     

    >Good

     

     

    Movement will continue to be measured per Phase.

     

    >ok

     

     

    All measurements will be given in meters. There will be no use of "hexes" or any other mapping arrangement in 6E.

     

    >Very good !!

     

     

    Comeliness will no longer be one of the Characteristics. It's being replaced with an optional Talent, Striking Appearance.

     

    >Good idea

     

     

    All the other Characteristics will remain, but none of them will be "Figured," i.e. derived from other Characteristics. They'll all start with a base value that must be bought up separately. The costs of some of them have been "tweaked" -- no further details yet.

    &

     

    OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV will become separate Characteristics, not derived from DEX and EGO. They'll start with a base value of 3 and will be bought up separately.

     

    &

     

    Leaping will no longer be derived from Strength -- it will start at a base amount for all characters, as with Running and Swimming.

     

     

    >That makes sense with the "you pay for what you get" philosophy.

     

     

    You will be able to apply your Normal Defenses to the STUN damage of a Killing Attack whether you have any Resistant Defenses or not.

     

    hm ? ok, we'll see...

     

     

    The method of Adding Damage is supposed to be simplified -- no further details yet.

     

    oh yes !!!! Thanks !!! The current version is a nightmare :)

     

     

    I wonder.....if OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV will become separate Characteristics and there will be no figured stats then why STR should add to damage ? (i mean, because of the "you pay for what you get" principle)

    It would not be illogical (following this principle) that: you pay for a base of damage and you improve it with maneuvers and that's all.

     

     

    The Multipower and VPP Frameworks will remain, but Elemental Control is being replaced by a new Limitation, Unified Power.

     

    Seems to be a nice idea

  16. ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

     

    And it is balanced. But only if you set the counterweights on the scale. It is a tool and can only do what you tell it to do.

     

    yes yes....

     

    The tool will have to make working a world where everything is possible.

    The problem is that even if a 10PD armor spell may exist it should be hard to get..... even if it costs the same as 1DK....

     

    You see what i mean ? The cost could have been the very best and simple way to do that.

    Instead of that i will have to dictate limits and confront frustated players ("i have the points ! why do you forbid it ? Because of balance ?"... I already know what they will say.)

     

    But in the other hand maybe it will work by itself and such a spell will not kill the drama of encountering a dragon and his 3DK attack, for instance. We'll see.

  17. ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

     

    Doesn’t the book specifically suggest using Adjustment Powers rather than applying Usable on Others with Defensive Powers? Don’t have my book to double check. Regardless, the book does specifically have a provision that Adjustment Powers only have half effect against (or on) Defensive Powers and it is arguable that that limitation should apply to Armor (or any Defensive Power) bought with UBO also. In fact, if I’m remembering correctly about my first point (wish I had my book) it’s not just arguable, it is rather self-evident. Lastly, the Usable On/By Others Advantages are Caution (or are they Stop Sign Powers) for a reason; they may affect game balance . That’s why there is a warning and that is why trying to use a Power with UBO to argue something is priced wrong simply makes for an extremely poor comparison, regardless of your issues with Limitations or anything else.

     

    A good argument even if you start from a possibility and finish with a certainty very quickly.

    I'm going to ask to S.Long.

     

    And Steve said "No"... (he would not half the effect)

     

    It was so "self-evident"...

  19. ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

     

    Because those limits are ... well, limiting. You're looking at the effect of the spell when it's up and running, forgetting that much of the time people are going to be applying the damage directly to the soft squishy mage without any protection.

     

    Let's look at it: he's paying END for the stoneskin (quite a lot of END in the original version), which means he can't have it up all the time. It's not up when he's stunned. It interferes with his ability to cast and maintain other magics in combat. It requires gestures and incantations which means that in many situations it can't be used at all. The improved version has a base cost of 96 active points, which is a -10 on his magic roll ... hope your mage sunk a lot of points into that roll, or he's going to get the benefit of the spell hardly at all.

     

    In a real game, your mage is going to be able to use his stoneskin spell only some of the time. And even the base version is a 60 active point power! A 4d6 RKA, which has the same active points cost is going to slice through it like knife through butter. It'll KO the mage in one hit, kill him in two - even if he succeeds in getting the spell up in the first place.

     

    Even if you move to a more extreme example where the mage makes his spell 12 PD/0 ED and limit killing attacks to 2.5 d6, it's still no spell of invulnerability. Sure, the mage can shrug off the BOD damage from most sword blows (if he gets the spell up, but the first energy-based spell is going to put a big ol' hole in him (and probably stun him, blowing his stoneskin spell, so the next sword blow will finish off what's left). A swordsman with Find Weakness will likely carve him up in sort order. In other words, there's lots of ways around his defence ... which is why it's cheap.

     

    A strongish warrior with a longsword can generally put out about 2d6 killing - not even at the top of your damage range. That's 7 BOD and - on average - 19 STUN. So even an average hit will put some STUN through the basic version of his spell - and some BOD.

     

    But you need to look at the range of damage, not just the average. 1/6 hits even with average BOD will do 24 STUN and 1/6 will do 35. Even with a PD of 6 and his Stoneskin spell maxed to 12 PD, he's still likely to be wearing significant stun from a few hits, from an opponent not even at the top of your starting damage range. He's far from invulnerable and if he wades into combat expecting his spell to protect his from all damage he's in for a nasty shock in about 3 phases.

     

    And in a crosstime game, he might be facing someone with a BAR. 2.5 d6 RKA? The stoneskin spell is going to be a great help, but even if it is maxed out, it's not going to give invulnerability, or even anything close. Remember, it doesn't help much if you bounce 5 hits and the 6th one lays you out unconscious without your protective spell ....

     

    Bottom line: by only looking at average damage vs defence and not looking at actual utility, I think you are getting a misleading impression how effective limited defences are, in play. As an experienced FH GM, I'd look at that spell as useful, but not even close to being a gamebreaker.

     

    cheers, Mark

     

     

    well....so there is hope :). I will see how it evolves.

  20. ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

     

    Using a large chunk of Limitations as an argument for somethings pricing as being incorrect is inherently flawed to begin with' date=' I simply ignored them.[/quote']

     

    Are you kidding ? In the last examples i used no limitations.

     

     

    Don't add in the Base - we need to figure out from 0 to 0 what the point cost should be.

     

    4 rPD + 7 PD = 6 + 7 = 13 Character Points.

     

    Looks good to me. I'm out of here.

     

    That's completely dishonest. :rolleyes:

    First i have round up values in order to please you, second you don't pay the 2PD base, third you don't repay PD for each armor power, and last armor cost 3CP/2rDef, period.

    And of course base PD comes from STR which has his own uses.

     

    Now the correct values are =>

    3DC= 3dN or 1dK, 15 pts

    N: average 10.5 STUN & 3 BODY

    K: average 10.5 STUN & 3.5 BODY

    N: average with hit locations 9.6 STUN & 2.7 BODY

    K: average with hit locations 8.75 STUN & 3.2 BODY

     

    N: 3.5 rDef + 7.5 Normal PD => 5.25 + 5.5 = 10.75 points.

    K: 3.5 rDef + 7 Normal PD => 5.25 + 5 = 10.25 points.

    N: with hit locations 2.7 rDef + 6.9 Normal PD => 4 + 4.9 = 8.9 points.

    K: with hit locations 3.2 rDef + 5.6 Normal PD => 4.8 + 3.6 = 8.4 points.

     

    I see only the bold costs as the good ones but add the normal costs in order to be a nice boy

     

    Note:

    averages multipliers from the hit location table:

    StunX: 45/18 = X2.5

    Nstun: 16.5/18 = X0.912

    BodyX: 16.5/18 = X0.912

    You may note that the hit loc. rule tend to lower damages on the average but this is another story.

     

     

    Doesn’t the book specifically suggest using Adjustment Powers rather than applying Usable on Others with Defensive Powers? Don’t have my book to double check. Regardless, the book does specifically have a provision that Adjustment Powers only have half effect against (or on) Defensive Powers and it is arguable that that limitation should apply to Armor (or any Defensive Power) bought with UBO also. In fact, if I’m remembering correctly about my first point (wish I had my book) it’s not just arguable, it is rather self-evident. Lastly, the Usable On/By Others Advantages are Caution (or are they Stop Sign Powers) for a reason; they may affect game balance . That’s why there is a warning and that is why trying to use a Power with UBO to argue something is priced wrong simply makes for an extremely poor comparison, regardless of your issues with Limitations or anything else.

     

    A good argument even if you start from a possibility and finish with a certainty very quickly.

    I'm going to ask to S.Long.

  21. ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

     

    Let's move up to a full 1D6 Killing Attack (3 Damage Classes):

    18 Stun from Normal Attacks

    12 Body from Normal Attacks

    30 Stun from Killing Attacks

    6 Body from Killing Attacks

     

    We Need: 30PD/6rPD

    or

    24 Active Points PD + 6 Active Points rPD = 33 Active Points

     

    I don't understand the values you use.

     

    3DC= 3dN or 1dK

    N: average 10.5 STUN & 3 BODY

    K: average 10.5 STUN & 3.5 BODY (if we use locations and the average pondered STUNX and BODYX it would be 8.75 STUN & 3.2 BODY)

     

    4 rDef + 7 Normal PD = 6 + 5 = 11 points.

    (6 pts of Armor for the 4rDef and 5 pts for +5 PD from a 2 base)

     

    Note: Because of figured chars i think it's not fair to add the whole normal PD cost

     

    Note: Obviously we must use average values. Using maximum ones when dealing with xD is not significant, mainly when x is high.

    eg. 4d => only 1/1296 chance to get the maximum.

  22. ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

     

    What's an Average Value of the Armor Power at 25 Active Points? Even Split? 40/60 Split? 70/30 Split?

     

    To be safe I must buy both ED and PD - at the very least - as I don't know if I'm going to get hit by an Axe or Lightning Bolt. So, obviously I need some kind of baseline as to which is more effective, or less frequent?

     

    Here's a question - does an equal level of Active Points in Defense completely stop an attack of equal level of Active Points - stop 50% - stop 25% - stop 90% of it?

     

    What are the base assumptions you think Defenses should act against?

     

    What does X Points in Defenses mean versus X Points in Attack?

     

     

    That's simple: i would not have to worry about the character's spell if 1 CP of Armor would stop 1 CP of K dmg on the average. That's as simple as that. The immediate result would be more liberty for the players and their characters. IMHO this is worth considering.

     

     

    By default with 60 CP (40PD) of armor equally spread among PD and ED , with locations rules and a pondered average (*) loc (X2.5 / X1) and, for instance 5 normal PD =>

     

    STUN= (Body x 2.5) - (N+R) = 35 - 40 - 5 = -10 = 0

    BODY= 14-R = 14-40 = -26 = 0

     

    You say

    "To be safe I must buy both ED and PD - at the very least - as I don't know if I'm going to get hit by an Axe or Lightning Bolt. "

     

    You would be even more safe with a compound power (eg: + mental defense + power defense, etc....)

     

    This is a fact: 40 rDef cost 60 CP.

     

     

     

    (*) i'm not sure this is the right english word for a "moyenne pondérée"

     

     

    If Armor costs the same as K power => 15 points per 3.5 rDef = rounded to 4 pts per 1rDef

    It becomes: 60 pts armor => PD15

    STUN= (Body x 2.5) - (N+R) = 35 - 15 - 5 = 15 STUN

    BODY= 14-R = 14-15 = -1 (instead of -26) = 0

     

    The spell would become =

     

    Stone Skin

    Armor 6 PD/6ED

    Base: 48

    Hardened (+1/4)

    Active: 60

    Cost Endurance (-1/2)

    Gestures (-1/4)

    Incantations (-1/4)

    Requires a Magic(Earth) roll (-1/2)

    Increased End Cost (X3, -1)

    Extra Time (Half Phase; -1/4) to activate

    Real : 16 (17 without the Extra Time)

     

    Improved Stone Skin

    Armor 6 PD/6ED

    Base: 48

    Hardened (+1/4)

    Usable Simultaneously (X4, +3/4)

    Active: 96

    Cost Endurance (-1/2)

    Gestures (-1/4)

    Incantations (-1/4)

    Requires a Magic(Earth) roll (-1/2)

    Extra Time (Half Phase; -1/4) to activate

    Real : 35 (or 38 without the Extra Time)

     

    Thus i would have a lot more time for working on the scenarios in place of worrying about game balance when dealing with abilities as trivial as a defense spell. (this is trivial compared to weird combos like dK+megascale, for instance.)

     

     

    Note : the spell is currently:

    Stone Skin

    Armor 6 PD/6ED

    Base: 18

    Hardened (+1/4)

    Active: 22

    Cost Endurance (-1/2)

    Gestures (-1/4)

    Incantations (-1/4)

    Requires a Magic(Earth) roll (-1/2)

    Increased End Cost (X3, -1)

    Extra Time (Half Phase; -1/4) to activate

    Real : 6 (still 6 without the Extra Time)

     

    for the same cost it would become roughly a 2PD/2ED spell. (also remember that such rDef is not localised.)

    For a Fantasy Hero campaign i think that this is a decent result for "only" 6 CPs.

    It could as well be a 4PD/0ED spell, which is the same as a Brigandine covering all the body.

     

     

    Now please tell me = why rDef should be cheaper than dK if everybody put limits on it ? (like 45 pts for Defs vs 60 pts for Atks)

  24. ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

     

    A 4d6 KA averages 14 BOD' date=' but average STUN is 14 x 2 2/3 = 37 1/3 with a Stun multiple die. The average differs, but is not 42, if using the hit location chart.[/quote']

     

    You've summed the localized multipliers and averaged them ?

     

    EDIT: i find 2.5.

    Head (3,4,5) = 3X5

    +

    Hands (6) = 1X1

    etc......

     

    Total: 45/18 = 2.5

     

    so 14X2.5= 35

     

    Fix:

    20rDef version => STUN= (Body x2.5) - (N+R) = 35 - 20 - 5 = 10 STUN

  25. ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: ... armor, limits of limitations,etc.

     

    Then go play Amber diceless.

     

    Every game has arbitrary limits. Same as reality (laws of physics) has arbitrary limits.

     

    You just have to set your own limits, or else you are just going to complain and never find a solution - here or anywhere. (I say this as kindly as possible; you are refuting every option or idea we posit.)

     

     

    No need to be rude :thumbdown

     

    I really take note of the various variants you all propose.

     

     

     

    My numbers were for Energy Blast - 42 Stun, 12 Body.

    But thanks for incorrectly correcting me.

     

    Keep cool...

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