sindyr

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters? OK, I have spent the last five hours thinking and writing and have come up with this: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1678490#post1678490 In it I explore precisely how Absolute Abilities can work, are priced, and interact. By the way, one Absolute Ability *can* trump another, so no one is *truly* invulnerable - just invulnerable to those without the right Absolute Ability. I would be honored if the good people helping me on this thread would check out what I have posted at the link above, digest it, and help me to better shape it into a working system. Thanks.

OK, here is a VERY long essay I wrote trying to nail down Absolute Abilities. Bear with me, as parts of it are somewhat stream of consciousness, but please check it out as I crave constructive feedback to improve this pre-alpha of a system. I) Basic concepts: Every power or ability is comprised of one or more effects. (Not to be confused with F/X.) Every effect either modifies an existing process (by increasing or decreasing a quantity) or creates a new one. A process is simply one or more triggers and/or conditions that yields a result, either modifying an existing process or initiating a new one. Here’s an example: Invisibility (Choice) yields (no image present for sight awareness process condition) -and- Power Defense (Drain, Transfer, or Transform process occurring on character) yields (Subtract Power Defense rating from process that triggered this process, minimum 0) As you can see, the only condition required for the Invisibility process to trigger is the conscious will of the user (Choice), whereas the Power Defense process does not require the conscious will of the user, but only a set of conditions being met, namely that the character has a Drain, Transfer, or Transform process run with him as the Successful Target. Let’s look at a slice of time in a scene with multiple processes interacting. Let’s say that Starblazer is shooting an Energy Blast at The Defender. Here’s the process. Starblazer uses his Energy Blast ability to initiate an attack process. The power can be thought of as: Energy Blast: (Choice, Aim) yields (10d6 Incoming Energy Damage to Successful Target). Choice and Aim are also processes: Choice: The character acts, must be conscious. Aim: (Choice, Target) yields (chance to convert Target into Successful Target) So, in the overall process, Starblazer must choose to use EB as well as choose to target someone or something. Assuming that Starblazer succeeds in hitting the target (the Defender), and that the Defender has an Energy Defense of 20, the processes would continue automatically: 10d6 resolves to 25. This is not a process, as it occurs outside of the game reality, it is therefore a “mechanic”. However, this mechanic provides to the EB process a random damage amount from 6-60. The Defender’s Energy Defense ability’s process might look like this: Energy Defense: (Incoming Energy Damage on Owner) yields (Incoming Energy Damage minus 20, minimum 0) Well, Energy Blast as its result invokes a Damage process, with a value of 25 damage, on the Defender. So the Energy Blast process ends and a new Damage process begins that is modified by the Energy Defense process, and so on. In this chain of processes, abilities have triggered that create new processes or modify ones already in process. Hopefully the above illustrates this theory in depth. What’s the point of all this? To be clear and precise about what is really going on behind the scenes as we delve into a controversial and challenging topic: Absolute Abilities. II) Absolute Abilities: An Absolute Ability is one that does one or more of the following: modifies values in a process to zero or any other amount, including infinity; prevents one or more processes from proceeding; contains one or more processes that cannot be prevented from proceeding; or takes a process that would not or might not occur and makes it happen for certain. For example, a brick can purchase high defensive value with abilities like Armor or ED/PD, but any incoming damage of high enough value would still get through. An Absolute Ability of Invulnerability could however reduce the incoming damage to zero, regardless of its value. Or a cowboy may have a very high OCV, but may still run into someone with an even higher DCV, to the point where it becomes very unlikely the cowboy can hit them. However, an Absolute Ability of Marksmanship could initiate the damage process bypassing the need for a to-hit check. A super self-healer may have awesome regenerative abilities, but those processes do not engage when the character has died. An Absolute Ability of Regeneration can initiate the regeneration process even when the character is dead. A teleporter may be able to teleport around the world, but not into a secret lab with a Hardened Force Field around it. However, an Absolute Ability of Teleportation(penetration) cannot be prevented, no matter how many times Hardened is purchased. Finally, a blade can be very sharp, but there will always be something too tough for it to cut. If the blade has an Absolute Ability of Sharpness, however, its rating is infinitely high and can therefore cut anything. So we can see that while the Hero System will permit us to have strong defenses, penetrating teleportations, high marksmanship skill, amazing regenerations, and ultrasharp blades, it always does so within limits, there being no overarching way (that I can find) to remove these limits for a fixed cost. For those who want a character with ultimate abilities, the Absolute Ability is how this can be added to Hero System. But how do we quantify this new option? III) Base effect and Absolute effect First we name the base effect – what does the power do? In naming the base effect, we note any variables. Then finally, we identify what pieces we wish to make Absolute – are we influencing values in a way the system doesn’t normally permit, reducing them to zero, increasing them without limit, or simply setting a number we ordinarily couldn’t? Are we causing a new process to trigger for certain that either only had a possibility, or was impossible? Or preventing another process from resolving? Or are we preventing the base effect or a process from being modified or halted? Let’s take each of the above five examples – the Brick, the Cowboy, the Healer, the Blade, and the Teleporter. The Brick wants Absolute Ability of Invulnerability – no damage from any source. This means that damage numbers are reduced to zero, regardless of what they were before. Alternatively, the Brick might want an expanded version of the Absolute Ability of Invulnerability – no harm from any source – which can include damage, but also sickness, environmental effects, etc. In this version, it’s not about reducing numbers to zero, but preventing processes from being able to resolve. For example, a gas is released that causes a small amount of damage and makes people choke. With the first version of this power, the damage the Brick would take is reduced to zero, with the second version, all processes that harm the brick are prevented from resolving – therefore neither the damage process nor the choking process resolve and he suffers neither effect. Now, the Cowboy wants Absolute Markmanship – the ability to hit anything he can reach, without any chance of failure. (Note: this does not prevent the Cowboy from failing to reach the target due to range or other factors, and it does not guarantee that upon reaching the target the projectile will deliver any particular level of damage, just that if the target can be reached, it will be hit successfully.) This Absolute Ability interrupts and halts the Aim process, trumping it and yielding a Successful Target. OCV and DCV don’t factor into it anymore. The Healer has amazing regenerative powers, but being dead, he cannot use his powers. The Absolute Ability of Regeneration simply removes the triggering conditions “being alive” in order for the power to work. As the Regeneration process now has no triggering conditions apart from being at less than full health, it will trigger even when dead. The Blade is a power designed by its wielder, the Samurai. When he goes to slice through something, a process is run comparing the Blade’s rating to that of the material it is trying to cut through. In this case, an Absolute Ability of Sharpness gives the Blade an infinitely high rating, allowing it to cut effortlessly through any material. Finally the Teleporter would normally be stopped by the Hardened Force Field. However, with the Absolute Ability of Teleportation(penetration) any processes that would prevent the arrival of the Teleporter at his intended destination are preventing themselves from resolving. Teleportation brings up another interesting option – there is more than one Absolute that can be applied! Teleportation usually has a range within which its user can go – it is also possible to have an Absolute Ability of Teleportation(range) that simply sets that potential value to an number the use chooses. Therefore under this Absolute, the user can access *any* range without limit. So now we know what Absolutes can do, and even how they do it, the ultimate question is how do players buy them, what do they get, and for what cost in character points? IV) In Practice: Builds and Points All of the above is theory, and as such, is probably not going to break the system. However, everything below is implementation, and has a great chance for breaking the system if I don’t do it right. And being human and a relative Hero System newbie, I probably will need to shape and edit this many times, so please read the rest of this as a work in progress that I will edit in the light of the constructive criticism you bring to bear. Of course, what I need to know most is if my numbers are off or if the system has a flaw, hole, or exploit. Anyways, here goes: 1. The starting point cost for an Absolute Ability is 50 points. 2. The ability must be defined in terms of its general effect. 3. If that effect has limitations (such as scope, effect, etc), the limitations must be approved by the GM. 4. Then the way(s) in which the ability is Absolute must be defined. 5. Each way the ability is absolute must be assigned an advantage rating from +1/2 to +1 ½. 6. Then the costs are computed and paid for. Examples: The Brick. 1. 50 points starting cost. 2. The ability’s general effect is the ability to reduce any damage. 3. No limitations. (If this only worked while in sunlight, however, perhaps a -1 would have been assigned) 4. The Ability is Absolute by reducing all damage values to zero. 5. The GM rates the scope and nature of this, perhaps at a +1/2. 6. 50 x (1+ ½) = 75 points for Absolute Invulnerability from all damage. Or, maybe the Brick chooses a different version of the power: 1. 50 points. 2. The ability’s general effect is the ability to negate all physical harm. 3. No limitations. 4. The Ability is Absolute by preventing all processes with physically harmful results from resolving. 5. The GM rates the scope and nature of this, perhaps at a +1 6. 50 x (1+ 1) = 100 points for Absolute Invulnerability from all physically harmful effects. Finally, someone who wanted to make a character who couldn’t be affected by any affects at all without the permission of the character: 1. 50 points. 2. The ability’s general effect is the ability to negate all adversarial affect of any kinds, including physical, mental, supernatural, etc. 3. No limitations. 4. The Ability is Absolute by preventing all processes with adversarial results from resolving. 5. The GM rates the scope and nature of this, perhaps at a +1 ½ 6. 50 x (1+ 1 ½) = 150 points for Absolute Inviolability from all adversarial effects. Note that all of the above assume the domain of applicability is the character. If a bomb explodes, the above abilities do not prevent the bomb from spawning processes on the other characters. Now let’s try the teleporter that can teleport anywhere within range, regardless of barriers: 1. 50 points. 2. The ability’s general effect is to move the character from his current location to another chosen location. 3. No special limitations. 4. The Ability is Absolute by preventing all processes that would interfere with arriving at the destination from resolving. 5. The GM rates the scope and nature of this, perhaps at a +½ 6. 50 x (1+ ½) = 75 points for Absolute Penetration while teleporting. Note that this ability does not grant the ability to teleport – one must still purchase the teleport power, paying for whatever effects (such as range) that one wishes to. On the other hand, one could have *two* Absolute effects on this Absolute Ability: 1. 50 points. 2. The ability’s general effect is to move the character and from his current location to another chosen location. 3. No special limitations. 4. The Ability is Absolute by preventing all processes that would interfere with arriving at the destination from resolving. 5. The GM rates the scope and nature of this, perhaps at a +½ 6. The Ability has a second Absolute Aspect: this process will place the character to a chosen location anywhere in any place he can imagine or conceive of that exists without limit. 7. The GM rates the scope and nature of this at the maximum, perhaps at a +1½ 8. 50 x (1+ ½ + 1½) = 150 points for Absolute Penetration while teleporting Any real place Imaginable. Wow! This is a pretty hefty TP mod – it can’t be stopped, and it will take him anywhere – any dimension, any world, any place that has any kind of “location” attribute. He can even teleport himself to the missing child, without knowing where he is, or to the car this paint fleck came from – even the nearest place to buy a beer. (Or the second nearest.) Obviously, although the player still has to buy the base teleportation power, he doesn’t need to buy any Armor Piercing or Range advantages for it – that’s what the 150 points paid for. He may want to buy some increased mass however, if he wants to take other people or things. This whole idea should of course have a big Stop sign on it – the GM needs to oversee these things closely. Of course, many powers, such as VPPs or Desolid need equal oversight. There is one matter that is left that needs to be addressed: What happens if the immovable object is struck by the unstoppable force? What happens if two Absolute Abilities collide? V) Absolute versus Absolute First of all, it is quite possible, even likely that the two Absolute Abilities are not actually in conflict. For example, perhaps an Absolute Energy Blast can do any damage including Infinite, and it hits the Brick version #2 above. Brick #2 simply prevents damage dealing processes from resolving, so the Absolute Blaster does indeed hit the Absolute Brick with Infinite damage, but since the Brick never gets to take it because the damage process fizzles, the amount of damage is irrelevant. What if we are talking Brick version #1, who only reduces damage to zero? Still there is no problem, because the Blaster’s Absolute Ability goes before the Brick’s Absolute Ability, since the Blaster’s Absolute Ability occurs during the damage generation process and the Brick’s Absolute Ability occurs in the damage resolution process. So in this case, the Blaster does shoot the Brick with Infinite Damage, but then as the Brick is resolving, the Brick reduces to zero. It’s only when two Absolute Abilities are trying to do different things at the same point in the process that we have a problem. For example, perhaps Energy Blaster defined his power thusly: 1. 50 points. 2. The ability’s general effect is to cause damage to a target. 3. No special limitations. 4. The Ability is Absolute by preventing all processes that would reduce or eliminate the amount of damage taken by the target by the EB. 5. The GM rates the scope and nature of this, perhaps at a +½ 6. 50 x (1+ ½) = 75 points for an Absolute Energy Blast that cannot be reduced or soaked. (Note the Energy Blast itself still has to be bought and paid for.) With *this* Absolute, we do have conflict between two absolutes. However, through careful attention to the language and timing, we can see that this process targets other processes “that reduce or eliminates the amount of damage taken”. Since the Brick’s Absolute Ability does just that, the Brick’s Absolute Ability process itself is prevented by the Energy Blaster’s Absolute Ability. The Brick’s Absolute Ability however only affects “all processes with physically harmful results from resolving.” And the EB’s Absolute Ability has no “physically harmful results” except indirectly. Therefore the EB’s Absolute Ability is able to prevent the Brick’s Absolute Ability from resolving, while the reverse is not true. What if we were talking about Brick #3 who’s Absolute Ability is “preventing all processes with adversarial results from resolving.”? This trumps the EB Absolute Ability, which is clearly about causing “adversarial results”. All in all, it’s always a judgment call, but as you can see from the above examples, most of the Absolute versus Absolute can be judged on its own merits, and when examined the outcome is clear. In the rare cases where one Absolute is exactly equal and opposite another Absolute, with both activating and coming into to play at exactly the same time and step, allow the absolute that causes less change (and is probably more defensive) to take precedence. However, I cannot imagine such a case ever arising. VI) Conclusion That is it. This is my first stab and including Absolute Abilities for the Hero System. If we take for granted for the remainder of the thread that the goal is to be achieved, what tweaks to this suggested system would better achieve it? Are the costs low enough that players could access the Absolute Ability system if they really want to, but high enough to make them pay what it’s worth? Would anything here break the system and/or make the game unplayable? Thanks!

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters? My mind always shut down when trying to grasp naked Advantages - were those in Fourth? Going back to reread the 5th Ed section on them...

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters? Action Points sound very cool, very similar to the Possibility points used in my favorite RPG Torg. It's going into my toolkit for possible future use. Thanks.

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters? Interesting. This yields to different approaches: An advantage that you apply to each power you want to be able to have infallible aim for, or a Power (via an Absolute Ability) that doesn't make your other powers cost more, but grants a global character ability that if you can reach the target, you can hit it. This also makes me think I am on the right track, because it feels right (to me) to be able to take either the advantage per power option or the global straight point cost option. Cool. Thanks!

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters? Found it, very interesting. It feels like we are one the same page point wise. You have basically created a power that prevents all body damage: So it doesn't protect from stun, it does permit the character to have protection from stun, it does not protect versus side effects - it a very limited form of what I was first looking for. If we use the 50 point method I devised above, we could run it like this: Absolute Ability(Inviolability): Only vs Body, strictly +1/4. Limitations: Cannot have defense against stun (-1/4), Only versus Physical, not Energy (-1/2). 50 x 1.25 = 62.5, 62.5 / 1.75 = 36. So the Absolute Ability Metapower that I am playing aruond with may actually include your Invulnerability as a sub set. To me, that's a sign I may be on the right track.

I am only now just reading 5th for the first time - I have played 4th, but not for a long time. I want to understand more about how the game handles limits, especially with regard to movement and combat. I know that normally you switch to a lower movement rate when in combat, or you suffer a 0 OCV and 1/2 DCV penalty if using noncombat movement. How do you "buy off" that disadvantage? What Advantage and/or point cost permits you to be using your full non-combat movement in combat, as if it was combat movement? Let me start with that, thanks.

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters? I will try to look that up. Of course, that's around 1500 points for full invulnerability, without even any other abilities, no special characteristics, nada. - seems a little pricey to me for my game. Of course, my game doesn't require perhaps the same level of imminent personal danger that others may. Thanks for the heads-up. Of course, this is about much more than just Absolutes as applied to Damage, but to anything - the ability to succeed is doing something or resisting something perfectly, without a roll and without contravention. This is very interesting.

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters? Interesting approach - however, I do not think this will be an issue - I do not know even if any PCs will want to take absolute invulnerability, it was just a case in point, like absolute TP, or Absolute aim. I just want to find or create an answer to the player who says "My character never misses. Ever. How do I build that?" While that does not directly address my Absolute problem, that sound's really awesome and something I may just have to steal and try... thanks! EDIT: PS, I think Stephen R Donaldson is perhaps one of the greatest writers ever, with his Thomas Covenant series' being in my mind the greatest fantasy ever, and his Gap series the greatest Sci-Fi ever. IMO.

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters? I know what you are saying, but myself and my group are quite comfortable with these kinds of things, because we are exploring the drama. For example, say a hero can't be harmed - this hero is safe, but what about the rest of the world? Plus a lot of challenges are the internal challenges within the characters, and we focus equally on those. It's been my experience over and over again, through all my decades of gaming that PCs having more power doesn't end the storytelling possibilities, it merely shifts the domain to a subtler (albeit also more epic) and to me, frankly, more interesting one. So perhaps from here on in, we can consider myself duly warned about the potential pitfalls of Absolute abilities. I appreciate the advice, but I would still like to move forward. Thanks.

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters? Thanks for the reply - will check out the linky. You may be right - maybe the presence of absolute abilities in fiction is more an idea that is "sold" than one that is "real". However, as both a GM and player, I still remain interested in how to accomplish it. I appreciate the idea of setting a setting practical absolutes for our campaign, ceilings which if you buy the defense up to, you have practical invulnerability. However, I have to admit to feeling like that too is a little kludgey - that to make one person invulnerable, you have to amend all the other people in the world. I'm gonna brainstorm a little here, chime in if you see something you like, or something you don't, or anything, really. Let's say we have a new super hero "Pyrite", and one of his schticks is that he is absolutely invulnerable to Fire. It can't damage him, hurt him, choke him, blind him, etc. Here are some random ways popping in my head to do this, without changing the world: An advantage: Absolute. This can only be applied to a characteristic that is already five times greater than it's base effect. The advantage is worth from +1/4 to +1 depending on how large a scope it covers. Example: Invulnerability. Your base Body is 10, to qualify for Absolute Body you need to buy it up to 50, then choose the proper level of absolute: +1/4, extremely limited scope, such as invulnerability to blades, or only during dusk or dawn. +1/2, limited scope, such as invulnerability to one kind of damage such as fire or bullets, or only for four hours/day +3/4, moderate scope, such as invulnerability to all physical damage +1, unlimited scope, such as invulnerability to all internal effects For Pyrite, we might purchase a Body of 50 with the limitation Vs Fire only, and ad the advantage Absolute, +1/2. A Power called Absolute Ability, costs 100 points. This grants the character one Absolute Ability, just as the name implies. Inviolability. Cannot be held or imprisoned. Cannot be disliked. For scopes or abilities that are limited, a limitation should be granted. For example, full Inviolability costs full points. Cannot be held or imprisoned might be a -1/2 Cannot be harmed by Fire might be -1 Alternatively, one could start with a cost such as 50 points with advantages based on wider scope, such as: Cannot be held or imprisoned, +1/2 Cannot be harmed by Fire, +3/4 Cannot be harmed, +1 Cannot be affected, Inviolate, +1 1/2 Let's take another example, a teleporting character called Blink that has no limit to his range - anywhere he can think of, he can teleport. He can teleport safely, even if he has never been there before. And he can teleport there regardless of barriers. This is actually two absolutes (I think) - a) teleport anywhere ignore all barriers. Under the first idea, Blink would buy up his Teleport to 5 times it's base cost by adding range and then takes a +1 Advantage unlimited scope, any location imagined. To get the second abolute he has to add another 5x the base cost, probably in Armor Piercing, and then takes a +1 Advantage unlimited scope, unstoppable. Practically, Blink might just take the advantage +1/2 limited scope, any physical place in this universe and dimension he has seen or experienced (incl TV and pictures.), as well as the +1/2 limited scope, unstoppable by any non cosmic level barrier or force. Under the second idea I guess Blink would skip the Teleport power entirely, instead purchasing the Absolute Ability to Control his location. This Absolute Ability would either be the 100 point one with no limiatations, or the 50 point one with +1.5 for being able to go anywhere without limit to location or barriers. The question becomes how to take other people or items with him, I suppose a further +1/2 could make sense, or maybe he buys Teleport as an addendum to his Absolute Ability. Now, Blink also has a seperate ability to teleport items from one place to another, as long as he can see the item and the place he wants to "put" it. This even permits him to teleport a component or attatchment of the item, such as a person's pant's or a car's fender. As long as he can perceive the item or component, he can TP it. Perhaps this is doable with regular TP, although Blink does not have to make any targetting rolls or rolls of any kind. OK, enough verbal diarrhea, I need constructive feedback! Given the premise that I would like to have another tool in the toolkit for supers to purchase for Absolute abilities that either ignore limitations or bypass rolls for success or both (without making changes to the world, only to the character), does any of the above seem like a step in the right direction?

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters? Testing, one, two, three... just made a post on this thread and it didn't show up, and tried to repost it and it said it was a duplicate... lag? EDIT: This one showed up, so I will try to append the original reply: The Desolid fix, while inventive, does not feel like it fits. I just get the feeling that it would be a kludge. It would seem to be simpler and more straightforward to be able to add the power itself to the game. How does one design and balance powers for this game? Are there any official guidelines or tutorials for building completely new powers from scratch, or are we on our own? This is going to come up multiple times I think because several characters under consideration have what I could call "absolute" powers, ie, can't be affected physically, another character can teleport *anywhere*, regardless of distance, another has a mental/spiritual form of invulnerability. What I am hearing is that Hero System gives you way to design characters with a quantified level of X or Y, but not an absolute level of X or Y, and as such, I need a way to build for that. For example, there is a character that can teleport items that he can see from one place to another. This power cannot be stopped by force fields or any other defense. So I need to figure out how to handle absolute powers within Hero System. Ideas? Especially regarding any written rules or guidelines for building completely new powers. OK, 500 base plus how many disads allowable? I don't think we are worried about making sure that people stay weak enough to force teaming, these players *want* to team. As such, I think we will be fine even if they are each a full on super-hero in their own right. 600 points plus disads, or 600 points total? We have played many epic level games, so no problem there. Besides, that's one of the main allures for superheroic roleplaying for us - EPIC gaming. But we also want to maintain player fairness - and the best way to do that is to be careful about the points and make sure everyone gets the same amount. As I have discussed up a bit, the need to spend thousands of points to make Superman may be in large part because Hero System doesn't provide Absolute powers, forcing you to buy ridiculous levels of PD, ED, Body, etc to simulate it - or forcing you to take Desolid and triple the cost of all your abilities. If we create a few appropriately costed Absolute abilties, it may bring creating Superman to a less ridiculous level of point expenditure. So right now, my burning question is how do we create Absolute abilities/powers?

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters? The Desolid fix, while inventive, does not feel like it fits. I just get the feeling that it would be a kludge. It would seem to be simpler and more straightforward to be able to add the power itself to the game. How does one design and balance powers for this game? Are there any official guidelines or tutorials for building completely new powers from scratch, or are we on our own? This is going to come up multiple times I think because several characters under consideration have what I could call "absolute" powers, ie, can't be affected physically, another character can teleport *anywhere*, regardless of distance, another has a mental/spiritual form of invulnerability. What I am hearing is that Hero System gives you way to design characters with a quantified level of X or Y, but not an absolute level of X or Y, and as such, I need a way to build for that. For example, there is a character that can teleport items that he can see from one place to another. This power cannot be stopped by force fields or any other defense. So I need to figure out how to handle absolute powers within Hero System. Ideas? Especially regarding any written rules or guidelines for building completely new powers. OK, 500 base plus how many disads allowable? I don't think we are worried about making sure that people stay weak enough to force teaming, these players *want* to team. As such, I think we will be fine even if they are each a full on super-hero in their own right. 600 points plus disads, or 600 points total? We have played many epic level games, so no problem there. Besides, that's one of the main allures for superheroic roleplaying for us - EPIC gaming. But we also want to maintain player fairness - and the best way to do that is to be careful about the points and make sure everyone gets the same amount. As I have discussed up a bit, the need to spend thousands of points to make Superman may be in large part because Hero System doesn't provide Absolute powers, forcing you to buy ridiculous levels of PD, ED, Body, etc to simulate it - or forcing you to take Desolid and triple the cost of all your abilities. If we create a few appropriately costed Absolute abilties, it may bring creating Superman to a less ridiculous level of point expenditure. So right now, my burning question is how do we create Absolute abilities/powers?

Re: Big Name Supers or equal characters? Would it be fair to say that Heroes does actually have Invulnerability per se? And that maybe the GM should just "invent" that power? I guess that bifurcates this questions into two branches: 1) Are there any guidelines for creating new power and setting the appropriate costs and parameters? Such as: True Physical Invulnerability: One cannot be affected internally by damage, disease, discomfort, pain, etc. This does not prevent one from being knocked around, or grabbed and imprisoned, but no effect can cause physical effects to the user. Obviously with Supes, this would have the limitation of *Except Kryptonite and *Except Magic. 2) How many character points minimally should it take to make a feature super like Superman, Green Lantern, the Flash, Thor, and Dr Strange? What should "X" be? 500 total points? 750? 1000? I have been out of the system for so long I don't know what is not enough, and what is ridiculously too much.

OK very brief intro first: Hi. OK slightly less brief intro (grin): Gamer for close to three decades, played dozens of systems, collected hundreds. Loved this game back when it was just Champions (4th Ed), just now getting into 5th Ed. Computer Consultant by trade and math and crunchy system do not scare me. Now to the questions: How do players in this game get to play characters with the same abilities as Superman, the Flash, Green Lantern, Dr. Strange, the Human Torch, Thor, etc? I mean in terms of point costs? And I am only talking about their abilities, not their contacts or history, just building a character of similar (or exactly the same) ability seen in the movies and comics. I know that you can create a watered down 250 point Superman. You could probably choose to create an accurate Superman on fewer points by choosing the "right" Superman, such as the one from the old black and white TV show. But what if I want to make Smallville's Supe or Christopher Reeve's? What if I want to make any of these big name superheroes according to modern usage? That's gonna take a lot of points. Take for example Superman, the classic case. And let's use the Smallville version, since it's detailed and current. He is generally invulnerable to everything except kryptonite and magic. That's not a reduction in incoming damage, but an ignoring of it. He has a lesser version of the Flash's superspeed, able to react superquickly and get large tasks done in the blink of an eye. Likewise he has superfast "faster-than-the-eye-can-see" movement in whatever medium he is in. X-Ray vision Laser eyes Super Breath Extraordinary Super Strength Super Hearing Super Leaping How can one build such a player character on starting points? I can only see a few different way to permit players to play these big name type character, or those of equal power: -The ubiquitous Variable Power Pool. But using it to solve the too-few-points problem every time is beginning to feel a little like a cheat to me. IMO, the purpose of VPPs is to simulate something like Magic or Gadgeteering, where you have soo many tricks you can't really list them all. IMO, if you have a reasonable list of tricks, say less than 15 or 20, you shouldn't have to go to the VPP to be able to afford them. -The GM can ask the player for the character concept, and once approved, allow the player to have enough points to make it. This too seems like a cheat, and worse, seems unfair because different players would get different amount of character points to start out with. -Hand out X character points to each player, where X is enough to build a Superman or a Thor or a Flash, without sacrificing accuracy. How much should X be? And what happens if someone wants tobuild Batman and has 500 points left over? I guess the player could bank them and spend them little by little as them need contacts, gadgets, etc. What's the best solution for this problem? Obviously, the "solution" that you just don't let you players play in the big leagues as a Superman or Flash is not acceptable for the purposes of this discussion. Thanks.