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Re: The Walking dude Cool, thanks for that. If it comes up I will change the limitations.

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System Sindyr (first off I love you name, and enthusiasm) I understand that you may have left, but hopefully this will address most of the issues you have come up with on the boards, and in reading this might be bolstered to return. This is long, but you mentioned a lot of long issues during your tenure. I have another route to go with a lot of you suggestions, and I know I am kind of late to the party as it were. One question I have is how old are you. I am sorry if this has been addressed before, but you seem rather young. I am also sorry if you are 25+ and you consider this insulting. I do not intend it to be. Your comments about evolution, Christianity, and heresy among others let me to this conclusion. Your lack of knowledge of physics is astounding though. The first problem that I can see with a lot of your power ideas is that they aren’t logical extensions of existing powers. Steamteck hit the nail on the head with the lit match into the fuel tank thing, but there are even more problems. #1 Gasoline (all flammable liquids for that matter) isn’t flammable. Only its vapors are. When something burns it is actually the vapors burning and being sucked from the liquid in question. Gasoline vaporizes readily we call things that do this “volatile” the problem with volatile flammable liquids is that they displace other gases. Gases have 2 limits when it comes to flammability. These two limits are called the lower explosive limit and the upper explosive limit. The lower explosive limit is the minimum amount of flammable vapors needed for the material to ignite. Conversely the upper explosive limit is the point when the vapors have displaced too much oxygen to support combustion (much less ignite.) There is actually a video on the internet of a man dropping a source of ignition into a Gasoline tanker. It causes a flash fire of the vapors then it goes out. There is no Terminator style explosion. You could teleport lit matches into a Gasoline tank all day long and it would never ignite. #2 What if the fuel tank on the car in question is a diesel tank. Diesel is much less volatile and even under good conditions (open air, plenty of oxygen) you would probably not get diesel to ignite with a match. (It would be like throwing a lit match at a puddle of water.) It seems that whenever someone gives you a solution to your problem that you don’t like you just discount it. You have done this with VPPs. I am new to this board, but an RPG vet (much like you.) and I have never made a character concept (not in Aberrant, Mutants and Masterminds, or the Marvel RPG system) in which I needed a VPP. I am a smart player though and I build my character with limitations. Several people have suggested that you put this idea out of your head for a while and try the system as written for a while to see if it really is a problem, because from most of their (and my) views it isn’t a problem because we know the system better than you. In fact the only concept for HERO I have come up with that needed a VPP was a Mimic character. Also in your absolute effects thread you kept ignoring the plethora of people telling you about the wonderful absolute effects sidebar in the Fantasy Hero book (Page 250-1.) If you work with the GM or the players in advance then your entire absolute effects idea is worthless. You just set world benchmarks and life goes on. In our world nothing can move faster than light (lets say) so by definition light is the fasting thing on the planet. In a game one could implement the same speed limit and as long as a character could move as fast as light they would be the fasting thing in that game. What makes the Fantasy Hero system so sublime though is that it does scale. Lets say you want to be invulnerable and the Ref decides that 100 points in armor will mean that nothing in the world will ever inflict damage on you, THEN you are invulnerable, “absolutely.” Why? Because when you were making your character that is what you and the Ref decided on. If you only have 200 character points than that ability might be balanced, but if you have 1000 then it isn’t. In that case the Ref might say that you have to buy 800 points of armor to be invulnerable. This is not so much a limit on the world as you might think, and it doesn’t really effect game play either. You discounted this idea early because it wasn’t what you wanted to hear, but despite that fact, this is the system you were looking for. You posit things like “disallowing all non prebought effects” yet that doesn’t actually happen in any HERO game. You also seem to assume that both the player and the Ref are stupid. You say that the player won’t know the limits of the character when play begins, yet I for one have never begun a game not knowing my exact limits. You also have made some conflicting statements like “NO ONE IS ASKING FOR OMNIPOTENCE.” then saying “I want a power that will allow me to Teleport anything from my home.” In the hands of a smart gamer the latter sentence is omnipotence. One thing you seem to not be able to get your head around is that versatility = power. And asking for a power with infinite versatility is just asking for a character with infinite power. An overriding theme of several of your posts is that you awfulize everything. It is almost like without your special absolute effect, even if you and the Ref agreed before hand, the Ref is going to screw you over and for no good reason inflict damage on your invulnerable character. If my Ref kept doing this to me, I would just quit the game. We agreed that I was the fastest, why can’t I catch this other speedster? If the answer is “Because he is faster than you” then we will have issues. If this happens over and over again then we are going to have to talk and I may change my character or find a new game. I am not going to try to tie his hands so he cannot do this to be. I trust the people I play with. You have an example of a speedster, but I have just created a speedster that I love, without a VPP. In fact there are character databases in several places on the internet that show a HUGE variety of speedster characters without VPPs, and one can assume that the people that made/play the characters are happy with the results. What effect would be so out of left field that a speedster wouldn’t be able to pull off with an EC and an MP? You mention MEGS a lot, but that is just a completely different system, and I think you need to stop thinking in terms of MEGS and start thinking in terms of HERO. MEGS uses a logarithmic scale to ensure that everything scales, but also (according to wikipedia) in a fight between two characters whose powers differ by several orders of magnitude the lesser one would “at least able to hold out for a while.” This leads me to believe that powerful characters aren’t that powerful. In comic books or any fictional narrative for that matter situations come up where a character that in an RPG might do something that is MUCH smarter/more powerful. The best example of this (IMHO) is Silver age Superman. IIRC his powers included the ability to fly in outer space and locate someone just by listening for their heartbeat. He could move so fast time would appear to stop, and he had heat vision. With these 3 powers alone he could overcome any foe, but also he more or less cannot be hurt (not true invulnerability mind you, but I argue that true invulnerability doesn’t exist in comics) and he could travel back in time to fix any mistake he may have caused. Now a player in an RPG with these powers is even more boring than superman had become. Superman had become so powerful that the writers couldn’t even write stories for him anymore with any sense of conflict. This is why balance is so important. What might seem like an innocuous little nothing of a power to you might make the character all powerful in just a few sessions. That is why the HERO system exists like it does. As the Ref you don’t have to come up with every possible way a power can be used before the game starts, but you can have a good handle on its limitations, and limit it based on how many points you think it should cost (with guidelines in the HERO book.) As a final thought this quote is false.

Re: The Walking dude OK cool. I misunderstood the question about psychic bullet. Yes, I knew that power will only do Stun. That is how I conceptualized the power. If requested by the GM I would happily spend 3 more points on the multipower, make the limitation a -1 or whatever. The reason to me it is a limitation is because it requires the character to spend an additional 2 end per phase to use all of the gun powers. (And any new ones.) To me making all of your powers cost 50-66% more end is a pretty big limitation, but I am not SOLD on it if you know what I mean.

Re: The Walking dude 1. Yes, the guns are real and must be broken down and cleaned regularrly to function. 2. I would think so. I bought a power to offset this, and the power that lets me use the gun costs end as well. 3. Why not? Its still an RKA it is just a bullet of psychic force rather than metal. 4. A single attack being able to disarm is fine with me. KISS mean that this is easier anyway.

Re: Hero System Light I might suggest PS238 the RPG. I just picked it up and the system (I am not all that familiar with the setting) is even more simple than the sidekick system. It is what I plan on using to get more acclimated to the game (we are starting a new group here (All of us are gren)) and then moving into the actuall campaign with the full HERO system (movign to 6th ASAP) I agree that this is just smaller numbers and not really a less complex system. If people want a simple system then D&D 4 is great for that (we all just left D&D because we don't like 4, but it might work for your needs.) and just come back to HERO when you get sick of WOTC.

Re: Help With A setting up a char Esl?

The Walking Dude Dark Champions character for a campaign with limited psychic abilities, but few other powers (mutants and zombies will be baddies, but not player characters.) Character is an old Gunslinger who wields two massive revolvers (str 20 for anyone else to lift.) He has the ability to Psychically generate ammunition for his weapons (no charges more or less plus a couple of abilities.) His back story is that he was a member of an organized criminal organization (a hired gun so to speak) and he turned his back on them and is wandering and helping people. 75 points 75 Disads 150 points total Characteristics Val Char Cost 12 STR 2 17 DEX 21 14 CON 8 14 BODY 8 8 INT -2 10 EGO 0 10 PRE 0 6 COM -2 2 PD 0 2/9 PD (0/7 rPD) 3 ED 0 3/10 ED (0/7 rED) 3 SPD 3 5 REC 28 END 0 27 STUN 0 6" Running 0 2" Swimming 0 2" Leaping 0 38 Total Characteristics Points Skills Cost Name 3 Acrobatics 12- 7 Fast Draw 14- 5 Rapid Attack (Ranged) 10 Two-Weapon Fighting (Ranged) 3 Demolitions 11- 5 Defense Maneuver I-II 3 Teamwork 12- 2 +2 with any single attack with one specific weapon 4 Survival (Urban) 12- 4 KS: Zombies 13- 3 Weaponsmith (Firearms, Incendiary Weapons) 11- 3 WF: Small Arms, General Purpose/Heavy Machine Guns 0 Climbing 8- 0 Conversation 8- 0 Deduction 8- 0 AK: [Home Country or Region] 8- 0 Shadowing 8- 0 Stealth 8- 52 Total Skills Cost Talent Cost Name 5 Rapid Healing 5 Total Talents Cost POWERS Cost Power END 3 Gun Muscle: +10 STR (10 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses almost all of its effectiveness (Only to meet Str modifier for using firearms; -2) 2 10 Huge Guns: Multipower, 37-point reserve, (37 Active Points); all slots STR Minimum 18 and higher (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; Requires a STR of 20 to hold and use; -1 1/2), OAF Unbreakable (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) 1u 1) Pistol Whip: Hand-To-Hand Attack +6d6 (30 Active Points); STR Minimum 18 and higher (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; Requires a STR of 20 to hold and use; -1 1/2), OAF Unbreakable (-1), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) 3 1u 2) Normal shot: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6 (30 Active Points); STR Minimum 18 and higher (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; Requires a STR of 20 to hold and use; -1 1/2), OAF Unbreakable (-1), Beam (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) 3 1u 3) Psychic Bullet: Killing Attack - Ranged 1 1/2d6, No Normal Defense ([Equally Common Defense]; Psychic Defenses; +1/2) (37 Active Points); STR Minimum 18 and higher (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; Requires a STR of 20 to hold and use; -1 1/2), OAF Unbreakable (-1), Beam (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) 4 1u 4) Armor Piercing round: Killing Attack - Ranged 1 1/2d6, Armor Piercing (+1/2) (37 Active Points); STR Minimum 18 and higher (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; Requires a STR of 20 to hold and use; -1 1/2), OAF Unbreakable (-1), Beam (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) 4 1u 5) Quick Shots: Killing Attack - Ranged 1 1/2d6, Autofire (3 shots; +1/4) (31 Active Points); STR Minimum 18 and higher (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; Requires a STR of 20 to hold and use; -1 1/2), OAF Unbreakable (-1), Beam (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) 3 1u 6) Shooting down the barrel: Dispel Ranged Killing attack 12d6 (36 Active Points); STR Minimum 18 and higher (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; Requires a STR of 20 to hold and use; -1 1/2), OAF Unbreakable (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) 4 12 Ankle-Length Duster: Armor (7 PD/7 ED) (21 Active Points); OIF Durable (; -1/2), Real Armor (-1/4) 0 31 Total Powers Cost Martial Arts Maneuvers Cost Maneuver Gun Fu 4 1) Basic Shot: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, Range +2, Strike, +4 DC 3 2) Defensive Shot: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, +2 DCV, Range +0, Strike +2 DC 5 3) Offensive Ranged Disarm: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, -1 DCV, Range +2, Disarm, +4 DC to Disarm 4 4) Quick Shot: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, Range +0, Strike, +4 DC 8 5) +2 Ranged Damage Class(es) 24 Total Martial Arts Cost Disadvantages Cost Disadvantage 0 Normal Characteristic Maxima 5 Psychological Limitation: Facinated by Firearms (Uncommon, Moderate) 15 Psychological Limitation: Triggerhappy (Common, Strong) 20 Psychological Limitation: Obsessed with Crimefighting (Very Common, Strong) 10 Distinctive Features: Scar on right side of face (Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses) 10 Hunted: Group PC was formerally a member of 8- (As Pow, Harshly Punish) 5 Reputation: Fled his previous group/employer (Coward/traitor), 8- 10 Distinctive Features: Huge Guns (Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Virtually Everyone) 75 Total Disadvantages Cost PEACH

Re: My first character (Speedster) Awesome. Thanks for the tips. I made some changes to the powers and talents. I am very happy with the character now. Any other feedback would be appriciated as well.

Re: My first character (Speedster) You are correct that Defense Maneuver I-IV should only be accesable in Heroic Form. I am not sure how to reflect a desire to be in powered down mode with the exception that some of his limitations wouldn't apply when he was powered down. Any feedback would be nice on how to show that, otherwise I was just going to make it a Role-playing thing (like when he is asleep he is powered down, and when he is doing day to day things (including signing autographs and brushing his teath and the like) he powers down because of the obvious dangers involved in tearing/burning photographs while he is attempting to sign them, and ripping his gums open when he tries to brush his teeth. Also (and again I am not sure if this is a reason or not) but if he doesn't have access to a source of electric power he would power down as well.

Re: My first character (Speedster) OK well I remade the character and here is the current version. The "Only in Heroic Identity" limitation is being used to meant that he has to "Ramp up" To be able to use his powers and that costs him 1 turn (so if he is surprised, or ambushed, etc.) and at the end of that turn he uses Fashion Victim on himself to get into costume. CHARACTERISTICS Val Char Cost 15 STR 5 15 12- HTH Damage 3d6 END [1] 15 DEX 15 38 DEX 61 (In Heroic Identity) 12 CON 4 14 BODY 8 10 INT 0 14 EGO 8 18 PRE 8 20 COM 5 3 PD 0 15 PD (12 rPD) 10 (In Heroic Identity) 2 ED 0 14 ED (12 rED) 10 (In Heroic Identity) 2 SPD 0 7 SPD 13 (In Heroic Identity) 18 REC 26 36 END 6 28 STUN 0 6" Running 0 46" Running 32 (In Heroic Identity) 2" Swimming 0 3" Leaping 0 Total Characteristics Costs: 87 (126 if you include In Heroic Identity) Cost Skills 3 Acrobatics 17- 3 Breakfall 17- 6 +2 with hyperthrowing and Debris Barrage 10 Defense Maneuver I-IV Total Skills Cost: 22 Cost Power 67 Speed Powers: Multipower, 100-point reserve, (100 Active Points); all slots Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4), Can be drained as an Elemental Control Power Framework (-1/4) 7u 1) Overdrive Running: Running +20" (46" total), MegaScale (1" = 10 km; +1/2), Noncombat acceleration/deceleration (+1) (100 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4), Can be drained as an Elemental Control Power Framework (-1/4) 3m 2) Hyperthrowing: Energy Blast 8d6 (40 Active Points); OIF (Blunt objects of opportunity; -1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Range Based On Strength (-1/4), Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4), Can be drained as an Elemental Control Power Framework (-1/4) 4 1u 3) Debris Barrage: Energy Blast 4d6, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2) (30 Active Points); OIF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Range Based On Strength (-1/4), Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4), Can be drained as an Elemental Control Power Framework (-1/4) 2m 4) Deadly Hyperthrowing: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6 (30 Active Points); OIF (Sharp objects of opportunity; -1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Range Based On Strength (-1/4), Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4), Can be drained as an Elemental Control Power Framework (-1/4) 5m 5) Rapid Healing: Healing 4 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (80 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2), Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4), Can be drained as an Elemental Control Power Framework (-1/4) 3u 6) Vibrophasing: Desolidification (affected by Vibration, Sonic and Air based attacks) (40 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4), Can be drained as an Elemental Control Power Framework (-1/4) 2u 7) Quicker than the eye can see: Invisibility to Sight Group , Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (30 Active Points); Only when moving (-1/4), Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4), Can be drained as an Elemental Control Power Framework (-1/4) 1u 8) In two places at once: Sight, Hearing, Smell/Taste and Touch Groups Images 1" radius, +/-3 to PER Rolls (34 Active Points); Set Effect (-1), Must remain within a half move (-1/4), Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4), Can be drained as an Elemental Control Power Framework (-1/4) 1u 9) Speed Reading (x10000) (10 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4), Can be drained as an Elemental Control Power Framework (-1/4) 1u 10) Fashion Victim: Cosmetic Transform 2d6 (clothes into other/no clothes, changing or repairing clothes) (10 Active Points); Limited Target ([Limited]; Clothes; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4), Can be drained as an Elemental Control Power Framework (-1/4) 46 +23 DEX (69 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4), Visible (Causes character to blur; -1/4) 13 +2 SPD (20 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4), Visible (Causes Character to blur; -1/4) 20 Benefits of Speed: Elemental Control, 50-point powers, (25 Active Points); all slots Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) 20 1) Can't hit me: Combat Luck (12 PD/12 ED), Hardened (+1/4) (30 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) 32 2) Superspeed: Running +20" (46" total), x8 Noncombat, combat acceleration/deceleration (+1/4) (65 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) 17 3) Dodging Bullets: +8 with DCV (40 Active Points); Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4) Total Powers Cost: 241 Total Cost: 350 150+ Disadvantages 20 Accidental Change (May co-locate): Anytime I go to move 11- (Very Common) 10 Distinctive Features: Unless I spend 4 points of end/turn I appear as a blur (Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses) 10 Overdrive: hard for him to manipulate objects with precision (-2 to appropriate DEX Rolls) or speak clearly (other characters must always make PER Rolls to understand him when he’s in this state) burn through any positive Adjustment Power effect in half the normal time. (Frequently, Slightly Impairing) 10 Competitive: Always tries to win... even if there’s no real contest going on. (Common, Moderate) 15 Overconfidence: Attitude makes him reckless, since he thinks that any problems he might happen to cause he can easily fix (Very Common, Moderate) 15 Speedster Impatience: The speedster is so used to moving at superspeed that he has a short attention span when it comes to everyday events around him and a very low tolerance for the frustration caused by having to live in a world where everyone else is so damn slow. He tends to get bored or distracted fairly easily, and if he fails his EGO Roll may lash out at the “slowpokes” around him with hurtful words. (Very Common, Moderate) 5 Heavy Sleeper: Suffers additional -3 penalty to perceive intruders and wake up. (Infrequently, Slightly Impairing) 10 Vulnerability: 2 x STUN Poison (Uncommon) 10 Vulnerability: Cold (Common) 20 Susceptibility: When Skin is in Contact with Ice 2d6 damage per Turn (Common) 5 Rivalry: Professional (Another Speedster), Rival is As Powerful, Seek to Outdo, Embarrass, or Humiliate Rival, Rival Aware of Rivalry 15 Public Identity: Hounded by fans (Frequently, Major) 5 Dependence: Electric power Powers Gain 14- Activation Roll (Very Common), 1 Hour Total Disadvantages Cost: 350

Re: Elemental Control Vs. Multipower I think my math was right. I had them both costing the same. I just would think it would be unlikley that you would need to run all 3 at full power at the same time (espically the two defenses.) Either they likley cannot hit you, or they likley can hit you and you can pick what defense you want. And yea Hero Designer does make a fuss when you try to put powers that don't cost endurance into an MP, but we are all new to the game (a buch of us are fed up with D&D) so our GM is new as well.

Re: Elemental Control Vs. Multipower Ok, I understand that the the conventional wisdom, but whenever I crunch the numbers (lets say I am making a speedster and I want him to have +8DCV (40 active points) +20 running (40 Active points) and 15PD/15ED (45 active points) I can put them into a EC for 85 Points. OR I could build a multi power and make them "m" slots. At this point I could add 60 points to the multipower and use them all at half strength (or 1 at full and 1 at half) for 25 points (85 points total) and add those additional 60 points to the multipower for flexability.

Ok this may be a stupid question, and it may come up a ton, but why would anyone ever take an Elemental Control power framework over a Multipower? It seems that multipower is just always better from a point cost standpoint? Sorry if this comes up often.

Re: Cheese factor When I tried to throw Haste together as an AID power I got this: Haste: Aid 9d6, Usable Simultaneously (up to 2 people at once; +1/2), Speed, HTH (or Ranged), & DCV simultaneously (+1), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Hour; +1) (315 Active Points); 4 Charges (-1), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (126 points) (if you make it Cost Endurance it is (only) 105 points) 315 is pretty rough in a multipower. I chose 9d6 to get the 34 character points you would need to add +2 to Speed, +2 to Combat and +2 to DCV. Edit: and if you make the points return at the rate of 5 points every 20 minutes it costs 117 (or 97 if it costs End.)

Re: Cheese factor Well I am kind of new at this, but for magic missile I get 2u, not 3. Also based on the spirit of the Magic Missile power, I would (as the GM) say that any 360 degree or totally encapsulating defense would block the missiles. Also Haste to me seems like it needs to be built as a Linked power because he is doing several things at once. +2spd, +2 HTH/Ranged, and +2 DCV. Finally Clairsentience has the stop sign, so I would think you would be 100% in your right to disallow it. Edit, actually I agree with Mhoram. Haste should be an Aid power.