phookz

Re: Fantasy Art Thread

Your pencil work is stunning.

Must spread rep, yadda yadda.

Lots of great work in that link you sent. I really like your improved version for panel 2 on the first page by the way. I think it's what jumped out at me the most.

Re: Interactive Sky Map

A piece of software I heard about a couple of weeks ago and I haven't played with yet is the WorldWide Telescope from Microsoft Research. You can run its rather cut-down web client' date=' but the full install requires a recent version of Windows to run. I have to grab one of my kids' new machines, bring it into the office, and try it; my desktop at work is a Mac, and the machines I have at home run nothing more current than Win2K. The full functionality of WWT was impressive in the demo I saw of it; you weren't limited to just visual images.[/quote']

 

That is very, very cool.

Very cool interactive map of the night sky stitched together from 37,000 images:

http://media.skysurvey.org/interactive360/index.html

Re: Hydra and Multi-Headed Monsters

mmmhhh ok

but what if i made a campaign rule that "heavily stunned chars = killed (for minor and major NPC)?"

Then you need to do whatever you feel is appropriate for a heavily stunned Hydra head. I would suggest the head be indefinitely incapacitate, but not spawn a new head, otherwise it becomes very difficult to beat the Hydra.

btw HB hydra got "only" 24 duplicates...

/shrug. I would give it as many duplicate heads as felt appropriate.

Re: many wolves > one chimaera O.o

ouch x_x

what "naughty words" did i wrote?

sorry, english is not my native language (just got 2 ranks...) so sometime i fail my INT check and write something... uncorrect...

You wrote:

this one got a lucky shot to the head and result was 18 BODY and a ****load of STUN damage

then the archer shot 2 lucky hit (one on the dragon head, one on the vitals) and chimaera goes down

Except you didn't have asterisks in it. Personally, I'm not offended, but some might be. Old Man is just looking out for you so you don't get in trouble by violating forum rules.

Re: Combat Skills Levels with engtangles

Yes' date=' two CSLs add one Damage Class, in this case +1d6, refer to Damage Adding rules in 6E2 to determine how many DCs are needed per the Active Points of each +1d6 of Entangle effect.[/quote']

 

So if 2 CSLs add one DC (as per 6E2 99), then wouldn't it take 4 CSLs to add +1d6 Entangle, since Entangle is 10 character points per 1d6?

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

I happen to agree with Hugh and Phookz, here: use of the power, not the game mechanic, defines the ethics.

Shifting to a real life example:

I own a pistol.

If I use it to shoot targets, that's fine.

If I use it to hunt for food, most people wouldn't object.

If I use it to kill animals for fun ("Sport"), many find that unethical.

If I use it to defend my family, most will say I was in the right.

If I use it to force someone to give me thier wallet, they'd say it was a crime. (And unethical)

If I use it to stop a crime, most would be fine with that.

If I use it to murder my wife,

and I think I've driven my point into the ground.

This is a great real-world example. As far as any of us know, this is real life and not a game. If it were a game, then there could be a character sheet somewhere with powers describing how the gun works. That build of the gun does not describe the ethical nature of the gun. Only the specifics of use of the gun can be used to determine the ethics related to said use.

If we are in fact in a game world, I've been seriously blowing my Persuasion rolls.

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

So then as far as you are concerned it is OK to enslave all those around you with mind control as long as it is possible to actually gain the devotion of all those around you and get them to serve you?

Absolutely not. I never suggested anything of the sort. Whether or not you get caught or can get caught has nothing to do with ethics. I was simply agreeing with Hugh's statement that what you do, not how you define the ability in game terms is what defines the ethical nature of the action.

For example, if I convince a 5 year old running a lemonade stand that they should give me all their lemonade for free, and they think it's a good idea because of how persuasive I am, it would be unethical. This is regardless of whether or not anyone ever finds out. It's unethical because I took advantage of someone unfairly, irrespective of whether I did so because I have a 19- in Trading, or Persuasion, or a 20d6 Mind Control. The action is unethical, not how the ability is defined in game terms.

Re: Why there is no Gulo Gulo in bestiary(ies)?

ok but... there are pidgeon and squirrels.

it's supposed they will get more fight against a squirrel then a wolverine? o.O

 

btw, i'll use black bear with some differencies... but... x_x

According to "Squirrels: the animal answer guide", in 2001 the US had over 2.1 million registered squirrel hunters.

Wolverine hunting is a little harder to find, but according to this site (http://www.currentresults.com/Wildlife/Endangered-Species/Endangered-Mammals/wolverine-709211.php) it's estimated that there are only between 15,000 and 19,000 left in Canada. Add in what the US has and I'm sure you're still a LOT less than the number of squirrels. I submit there are therefore fewer wolverine hunters. So, given those stats, maybe it is more likely to fight a squirrel than a wolverine

With regards to pigeons, I've personally shot more off my roof with a pellet gun than the number of wolverines I've ever seen

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

Exactly - it is the use to which the ability is put that determines whether it is ethical' date=' not the mechanic by which it is constructed.[/quote']

 

Agreed. This very neatly sums up what I've been trying to say.

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

Okay' date=' now you can foil his plan. But you still can't put him in jail for using his powers. So he can just go to the next city and start anew...[/quote']

 

I must be confused. I don't see what this has to do with the ethics of the power.

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

So' date=' mentons mind controll is more unethical/percieved as an attack because of...the special effect?[/quote']

 

Yes.

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

Since when does the SFX restrict me from archieving an EGO+30 Result?

Who said it did? That sounds more like a limitation than the SFX

Environmental Mayhem:

So you can cost-effectively build the ultimate, untraceable Hitman-Power?

When the Archangel hit's everyone with KA "Sword trhough chest" from nowhere, how much difference is there to the affliction/radiation examples? What if it aplies to people unintentially harmign me? (i.e. some running into me and I get a bleedy nose).

What if it does? What if the prophet of the lord doesn't even know it's happening, is it still unethical? The SFX define it as the Lord protecting him. From a game mechanics standpoint, the power emanates from him, because that's how the game is defined. From the character's world standpoint, the power emanates from the Lord. Where do the ethics of the power lie now?

About persuasion:

Sorry, hit the wrong column. 15- is the upper limit. But still: When MC can archieve better results within the limit for the same character-power-category, doesn't that mean that it does something totally different than persuasion? And could this thing actually be, that it does attack/manipulate the mind directly to archieve it's effects?

Maybe not different, but more effective. Why would that not be possible? The ethics of using it are no different than using Persuasion.

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

It would be very difficulty to learn of the attack' date=' but if it was learnt/oberserved everyone who can would act accoringly. Invisibility does not changes that it is an attack. It is just harder to track back to you.[/quote']

 

You're not reasoning from special effects (see 6E1 122). The special effect is all of this mayhem that surrounds the character. How we build it is with Blast. The fact that Blast is an attack power is a side effect of the special effect we're interested in.

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

To the question of "attacks not perceived as attacks", one commonly suggested build for Luck Powers is an attack power (say Blast) which is Indirect, and has some level of IPE such that it is not perceived as coming from the character who possesses the power, maybe some variable special effect. The special effects are not that he attacks someone, but that some improbable occurrence results in an attack against the target. Perhaps a piano falls on his head. The character did not cause the effect - he's just supremely lucky that such an unlikely thing happened to his opponent. By contrast, the player chose the target and rolled the attack roll. From the player's perspective, it was an attack power.

 

Anyone have USPD handy? Was it published there?

Page 195 of Champions Powers, Environmental Mayhem.

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

No, you misunderstand. If it is an attack should be part of the game effect. How this attack is viewed, that is part of the law, the ethics and concepts like "realtive force" in the campaing world.

 

For a Red Mage of Tay in D&D it is okay to burn their slaves to a crisp on a whim, as is allowed in most slaveholder states. (The Tays to worser things to traitors)

 

Likely, knocking someone out to get him out of mind controll (especially when ordered to attack you) is okay. Most likely even for the victim ("Thank you for preventing me from something I regrett).

This does not change that the power used to archive it, is still an attack, just how it is viewed by everyone differs.

The MC-User may actually be quite upset for disabling his toy or may even have real concern for the wellbeing of his controlled.

What is and is not an attack in the character's world is not the same as what is and is not an attack in the player's world. RSR doesn't mean anything in the character's world - the power is difficult to do, some effects are more difficult that others. Players know what the roll is, they know they have to roll less than some number on 3D6 in order to achieve the desired effect, but dice and rolls means nothing to the characters.

Whether or not the MC is an attack is no different than whether or not a Persuasion roll is an attack. There is precedence in published rules for using powers as skills. That doesn't make it automatically an attack in the character's world. Is it considered an attack when there is a skill vs skill roll? It's just a mechanic to see if the action worked and nothing more. What is and is not an attack in the character's world is up for interpretation based on the knowledge available in the character's world. They know nothing of attack powers, skill rolls, damage rolls, etc.

By the way, I just picked up Champions Powers and on page 228 they have a variation of Mind Control: Silver-Tongued. "Instead of reflecting literal

control of the mind, they represent his extreme persuasiveness. With a few glib words, he can convince people to do just about anything. Add Requires A Persuasion Roll (-½) and Incantaitons (-¼)"

You are welcome to disagree with this and not allow it in your game. Depending on the campaign world that may be the right thing to do. If you're running the "typical" four-color superhero world (if such a thing exists), I suspect this would be somewhat unfair and would be coming down on mental powers unfairly. This is in essence the position Hugh had stated that started this entire conversation spanning two threads.

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

By the time you've piled up all the modifiers required to make the power invisible and unnoticeable and get it to ignore mindshield' date=' it would probably be more cost effective to just get Persuasion.[/quote']

 

That may be true, but we weren't debating the cost effectiveness of powers vs skills.

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

And in order for it to work that way and still be balanced, it should always be considered an attak and always stay percieveable by mental awareness. If not (even just if he's the only one with mental powers) it should be an advantage. Otherwise such a power can grow to strong.

Also, no one could so far give me the example for any other attack power that hinders/damages the target but is not viewed as an attack. So MC should not get any extra's here because of SFX.

I'm not arguing for any other power - this topic stemmed originally (from another thread) from a discussions on the ethics of Mind Control. I don't see anything I've stated giving MC anything extra. From an ethics standpoint, in the character's world, what is and is not an attack is situational; it depends on the power, now it's defined, its SFX and its use.

About the super skills: Each of the examples uses "Requires a Skill Roll" (-1 per 5' date=' 10 or 20 Active Points; aplicable to skill modifiers; may be "blocked" with skil contest). This would seriously change who and what it can affect.[/quote']

 

Whether or not RSR is applied has nothing to do with the ethics of a power or whether the use of a power is an assault.

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

Of course it has no effect on the Mechanic. It IS the mechanics working here, the clear difference between Charm/Persuasion, MC and Interogation/PRE vs EGO.

Asuming we have a rule allowing that effect, would your nun start having sex regulary? Or would she return to follow her oath of chasity? (asuming no further seduction atemps are made)

I don't see anything in the rules that state that MC doesn't change your point of view. My point was that how MC gets a character to do what they do is entirely up to the SFX of the MC. If you put a limitation on the MC that it must always use the +20 Adder "Target will remember actions and think they were natural", then I see no reason why MC couldn't be used to change someone's point of view.

If the MC is a build for Professor Puppetmaster, and the SFX is he mechanically controls the persons body to force them to do what he wants, but they are aware of the actions and will remember it, then yes, if he uses this power on a Nun she will immediately know when the power is up what happened.

If the MC is built for Miss Persuasion, who has multiple levels of striking appearance and the SFX is she's just super convincing, limited level of effect, always with the +20 Adder "Target will remember actions and think they were natural", then no, if she uses the power the Nun will think she was tempted and failed, and that the sin was all hers.

The game mechanics are there to support this type of build. We have precedence from the rules of using powers to represent high levels of skills (see Advanced Hiding in Shadows 6E1 240). The use of the power, and whether or not it is an assault or ethical, depends on how the power is built, the SFX, and the specifics of the scenario in which it was used.

Hmmm...No!!? I said time and again: MC is as etical as a blast or any other attack power.

Then please allow me to apologize for my misunderstanding.

What I was "violently opposed to"' date=' was an MC difined in a way that is is not viewed as attack (by victim, bystanders and law), once detected. But that was apperently a missunderstanding.[/quote']

 

Here I think we differ in opinion. Depending on how the power is defined I don't think it is necessarily an attack. The fact that there is an attack roll is meta-game information. In the Character's world, there is no attack roll, just actions and reactions. The fact that their world is defined by character sheets and rule books that require the use of dice has nothing to do with the character's world, which is where victim, bystanders and law are defined. There are no dice deciding the fate of the MC in the victim's world (unless that's part of the SFX of the build of course!), that's purely a mechanic in our world to adjudicate whether or not the power works. The dice exist merely to give a probability to the outcomes and to spice up the game such that we, as players, don't know for sure what's going to happen. Being an attack power is an offshoot of the dice and mechanics of determining the actions outcome, and has no bearing in the character's world - it's how we describe things in the player's world.

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

None of this, to my understanding, precludes using Mind Control as skill as a power. In fact, I think it supports it. For those builds where you want that level of effect, Mind Control is one way to do it. This is no different than building Super Stealth using Invisibility.

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

In game terms I would argue that small children have a variety of unwritten complications that make them inclined to trust, obey, want to please, and want attention from adults, especially ones they know.

 

Getting them to testify in court when there parents are telling them they should is not the equivalent of a +30 effect.

 

The implanting of the false memories (if that is what happened) would be a result of a failure in the Interrogation roll made by Kee MacFarlane when she was trying to extract information from the children in question. False confirmation of a suggested answer presented during an interrogation is a classic result of failure, if you're really after the truth, or I suppose of success, if you just want a confession, and the truth be damned.

 

Or maybe these kids just picked up on the scenarios suggested by MacFarlane and noticed that if they parroted them back, they got lots of adult attention, which they like. Clever Hans all over.

 

So I still don't necessarily see the equivalent of a +30 Mind Control effect from the use of a skill. You might, but that's your opinion, not mine.

 

Especially not in a 1 minute timeframe.

Fair enough. Hence the use of a power as skill. However, TUS does present rules for achieving that level of effect.

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

I've read trhough the skill descriptions

I think I found the mayor difference between Persuasion/Charm Skill and Mind Controll:

The Skills make you take on the others point of view ("You like to be around me", "I think...."), at least for a time. It is nowhere clearly stated when it ends but I would go for: until Situation worsenes (i.e. when for MC the EGO+X level would increase) or you had some time to think it through (sleep a night about it). Of course, if it get's reinforced regulary (i.e. reapplication of the skill for the same effect) it could make the effects more long lasting (unless you stop charming your wife, then they may fade). Same is true if the skill user can use the complications of the targets (you want to believe it).

 

MC on the other hand does not change your Point of View. It aplies one to you that supresses your natural pov. The breakout roll is just the the reaction of the mind, to "shake of" the unnatural pov. To return to it's natural pov.

You do not really like that guy/gal or buy on that idea, but that is irrelevant. Your Point of view is supressed by a different one (chosen by the MC user).

I don't see that anywhere in the rules, but you're welcome to view it that way. I don't see that having any meaningful effect on the mechanics.

What that could mean for the ethics discussion:

I would give the Skills the slight "benefit of natural pov". So they might are a little bit less unethical. Of course not all. Interrogation and PRE-Attacks resisted with EGO are way closer to MC in they are there to break the targets will (thus comlying to something, that goes against your pov).

 

This may also give is the "Not HERO System" terms we are looking for:

Charm/Persuasion Skill is temporarily Transforming/Influencing the Point of view

MC is Supressing/Replacing the Point of View

Interogation/Fear is "breaking" the Point of View (lack's a better term)

The issue I've had with your position hasn't been one of non-HERO terminology. My issue is with the position you've stated that any use of MC is unethical. I believe it is possible to build an MC power such that it mimics a skill - say Persuasion, but it could be others, as a superskill. That doesn't make MC any more unethical than the skill it is simulating. The mechanics of requiring an attack roll, or "forcing your view on someone else" are just a way to adjudicate what happens in game terms. It is no different than applying the mechanics of, say, Persuasion. The ethics of the use are situational, and depend on what it's being used for.

Interestingly enough, The Ultimate Skill pp65 lists Interaction Skill Effects and has at the "10 or more; Critical Success" level:

Target will go along with suggestions he's strongly opposed to (e.g. against which he has a Total Psychological Limitation - a nun gives in to a Seduction attempt, a miser makes a really bad deal using Trading)

Target will believe patent untruths ("Are you going to believe me or your own eyes?", "The Emperor is wearing new clothes.")

Re: Tactile Metal Control powers

Dispel is all or nothing, so if you don't exceed the points it has no effect. You might consider Drain.

Re: Superpowers and Ethics

Children are easily influenced.

Try this with a grown up who has no complications to work with.

Still an EGO+30 effect roll, even if it is modified. Besides which, at this point we're talking about skills as powers. I don't think it's unreasonable for a game, given that it's been done in real life.

Re: Why there is no Gulo Gulo in bestiary(ies)?

Maybe because at 496 pages it couldn't possible have all 1.7 million of the currently identified species on planet Earth represented?

Actually, it is listed on pg 13 of the 6E Bestiary, but only as an entry in the Weasels category for Animal Handler.

I'd probably use American Black Bear and lower the STR, maybe up the SPD.