Does Anyone Use/Discuss the Terran Empire Setting?

[PamelaIsley]

I've had the Terran Empire book for years and just now read it.  I like the idea of the setting, but there are a lot of decisions made in the book that don't make a lot of sense.

 

Does anyone actually use it or know about it, though?  Would it be worth trying to have a discussion to hash them out?

[Lord Liaden]

I started a discussion about TE a little over a year ago, and some interesting points were debated, although the thread did rather drift:

 

[PamelaIsley]

Well, that does get into one of my main problems with the book, though it's not really interesting to discuss:

 

The Hero System's attempt to make a shared universe actually diminishes all of the settings.  It's best to just have a superheroes game set in its own world, a sci-fi game in its own universe, etc.  The idea that superheroes existed in the Terran Empire's past is a little silly.  Plus, the book throws that ridiculous magic as the source for everything (even science) nonsense in your face over and over.

 

But you guys didn't really get into the details of the universe, like the Senate, the emperors, governors (do they exist), and other parts of the Empire.

 

I was thinking of rewriting the setting to make more sense (to me at least), but I wondered if people had any insights into why things are the way they are.  In the other thread, it reads like not that many people really got into it enough to care about these details.

[Lord Liaden]

Here we have an example of how perceptions and opinions can differ between reasonable people. To me the Terran Empire setting makes sense. Particularly when combined with the details of the Alien Wars part of the timeline, how it develops seems pretty logical. I do agree with some comments on that other thread that Marisa III's reign may not be the most interesting start for a campaign, but we get enough detail in the time line that it isn't hard to roll back or forward to a period of (apparently) less stability.

 

Also, as I've mentioned on other occasions, I quite enjoy the unified timeline. I find it adds depth to the setting, and offers many sources to draw from for plots and character origins. As for magic catalyzing super powers, I've discussed that topic ad nauseum, here and elsewhere, so I'm hoping we can avoid a return to the subject. 🤢

[Greywind]

2 hours ago, PamelaIsley said:

Well, that does get into one of my main problems with the book, though it's not really interesting to discuss:

 

The Hero System's attempt to make a shared universe actually diminishes all of the settings.  It's best to just have a superheroes game set in its own world, a sci-fi game in its own universe, etc.  The idea that superheroes existed in the Terran Empire's past is a little silly.  Plus, the book throws that ridiculous magic as the source for everything (even science) nonsense in your face over and over.

 

But you guys didn't really get into the details of the universe, like the Senate, the emperors, governors (do they exist), and other parts of the Empire.

 

I was thinking of rewriting the setting to make more sense (to me at least), but I wondered if people had any insights into why things are the way they are.  In the other thread, it reads like not that many people really got into it enough to care about these details.

 

Within your own campaign use what interests you. I can be a unified timeline, or each part of it can be a separate reality to visit.

[PamelaIsley]

Marissa is a fantastic character in many ways (the hedonism doesn't really fit with the rest of her biography, but that's easily ignored), but you are right that her reign seems a bit too stable for certain plot threads.  If you set it a little further in the past, you could use the Civil War between the rival claimants.  The rebellion section, as presented, isn't that interesting to me, but many people enjoy emulating Star Wars (or Traveller's less savory later books).  

 

I like the Terran Empire concept.  It's a more interesting presentation of a Galactic Empire than the Third Imperium in Traveller.  But lots of the details don't fit together in a great way.  If I were going to use it, I would probably do at least some of the following things:

 

1. Fix the Senate.  There are 1,000 planets in the Empire, but only 98 of them (from one "region") send senators, all of whom are selected in different ways.  I don't understand what purpose this body could possibly serve.  It isn't democratic, so it doesn't give the population a release valve to express discontent.  It doesn't bring together representatives from all over the Empire to give the capital different perspectives (only 10% of planets even send someone).  It doesn't seem to have any actual powers, so it isn't a check or balance on the Executive. 

 

You could go down a huge rabbit hole here trying to figure out how to make an Imperial Senate actually work, but the easiest thing that would make the Senate have some logical consistency would be to just do something like one senator per planet over a certain size, elected in some manageable way, with advisory powers only.  If you wanted a more constitutional monarchy, it could have the power of the purse or approval power over ministers, but that doesn't fit the setting very well.

 

2. Fix the demographic issue.  The Empire has 1 trillion inhabitants, slightly over half of which are aliens.  But the setting book almost completely omits any discussion of the non-human residents of the Empire.  Only a couple are discussed, with only the Fex ever really showing up as imperial officials or in other sections of the book.  This is weird.  I would just reduce the number of aliens in the Empire down to like 25% of the total population, with most of those being on worlds that hadn't yet achieved space flight when they were brought into the Empire.  This would still keep alien rights an issue to be discussed (including any number of variations on a prime directive type law), but it would fit more with the human-centered presentation of the Empire in the book.  Otherwise, you'd have to create a lot more subject aliens (not just the races that surround the empire) and explain how they fit into Imperial society.

 

3. There is absolutely zero discussion of how imperial worlds are governed.  No talk of viceroys.  Only passing references to governors.  Do all 1,000 planets report directly to Marissa?  When Marissa sets up a new colony, surely it doesn't get complete autonomy immediately.  I don't see how a polity like the Empire could exist without some kind of sector-type organization and some formal imperial executive presence on each world (even if the planets govern themselves, you'd need a governor to just coordinate imperial assets; even Traveller's Third Imperium has this).  

 

There are other small things in the book that don't make a lot of sense, but those can just be ignored.  

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, PamelaIsley said:

Marissa is a fantastic character in many ways (the hedonism doesn't really fit with the rest of her biography, but that's easily ignored), but you are right that her reign seems a bit too stable for certain plot threads.  If you set it a little further in the past, you could use the Civil War between the rival claimants.  The rebellion section, as presented, isn't that interesting to me, but many people enjoy emulating Star Wars (or Traveller's less savory later books).  

 

I like the Terran Empire concept.  It's a more interesting presentation of a Galactic Empire than the Third Imperium in Traveller.  But lots of the details don't fit together in a great way.  If I were going to use it, I would probably do at least some of the following things:

 

1. Fix the Senate.  There are 1,000 planets in the Empire, but only 98 of them (from one "region") send senators, all of whom are selected in different ways.  I don't understand what purpose this body could possibly serve.  It isn't democratic, so it doesn't give the population a release valve to express discontent.  It doesn't bring together representatives from all over the Empire to give the capital different perspectives (only 10% of planets even send someone).  It doesn't seem to have any actual powers, so it isn't a check or balance on the Executive. 

 

You could go down a huge rabbit hole here trying to figure out how to make an Imperial Senate actually work, but the easiest thing that would make the Senate have some logical consistency would be to just do something like one senator per planet over a certain size, elected in some manageable way, with advisory powers only.  If you wanted a more constitutional monarchy, it could have the power of the purse or approval power over ministers, but that doesn't fit the setting very well.

 

 

As TA points out, the Senate is a relic from the era of the Terran Union, when its member worlds sent representatives with real power. Other worlds don't have Senators because their human habitation postdates the Union. The purpose the Senate was created to serve is no longer relevant, but it persists out of tradition. Sometimes it's useful to Marissa, so she allows it to remain rather than face pushback against abolishing it.

 

There are numerous comparable examples of such traditions on Earth today. The official head of state of the United Kingdom is a figurehead who rubber-stamps government decisions, and the sitting members of their House of Lords have no real accountability, or requirement for popular support or even competence. The elected President of Israel's duties are almost wholly ceremonial -- real power rests with the Prime Minister.

 

1 hour ago, PamelaIsley said:

2. Fix the demographic issue.  The Empire has 1 trillion inhabitants, slightly over half of which are aliens.  But the setting book almost completely omits any discussion of the non-human residents of the Empire.  Only a couple are discussed, with only the Fex ever really showing up as imperial officials or in other sections of the book.  This is weird.  I would just reduce the number of aliens in the Empire down to like 25% of the total population, with most of those being on worlds that hadn't yet achieved space flight when they were brought into the Empire.  This would still keep alien rights an issue to be discussed (including any number of variations on a prime directive type law), but it would fit more with the human-centered presentation of the Empire in the book.  Otherwise, you'd have to create a lot more subject aliens (not just the races that surround the empire) and explain how they fit into Imperial society.

 

 

I agree that this issue could have received more attention; but the book does point out that while non-human Imperial citizens have the same legal rights as humans in principle, in practice they don't. The Empire is systemically racist toward non-humans, despite their numbers. (Gee, where have I heard that before?...)   Marissa has made efforts to try to ameliorate their treatment in the interest of stability.

 

1 hour ago, PamelaIsley said:

3. There is absolutely zero discussion of how imperial worlds are governed.  No talk of viceroys.  Only passing references to governors.  Do all 1,000 planets report directly to Marissa?  When Marissa sets up a new colony, surely it doesn't get complete autonomy immediately.  I don't see how a polity like the Empire could exist without some kind of sector-type organization and some formal imperial executive presence on each world (even if the planets govern themselves, you'd need a governor to just coordinate imperial assets; even Traveller's Third Imperium has this).  

 

There are other small things in the book that don't make a lot of sense, but those can just be ignored.  

 

Again, I agree that this subject could have been dealt with in more detail. However, all the examples of planetary governments in the book, for both Senate and Imperial worlds, present a wide range of governing structures, suggesting Marissa III prefers that they govern their own local affairs for the most part. (The examples are elaborated on in several cases in Worlds Of Empire.) The only "governors" mentioned under Marissa are those she appoints over new colony worlds. The given examples imply the Empress prefers to exercise interstellar control through her various ministries, over specific areas of authority, including security, law, and trade.

 

That's not as unwieldy a system as it sounds. Quite a few modern polities have governing systems with high measures of local autonomy having defined powers, including the states of the United States, the four members of the United Kingdom, and the provinces of Canada. The federal governments of each of these nations retain final authority in several areas, but are excluded by constitution and tradition from encroaching on the powers of their smaller components.

 

(I do want to assure you, Pamela, that I consider your concerns reasonable, and you absolutely have the right not to like how something is done in a game source book and to change it to suit your preferences. Lord knows I've done that often enough myself.   But you did ask for thoughts on the matter, so I thought I'd present another perspective which IMHO is equally reasonable.)

[PamelaIsley]

Thank you for your thoughts.