Shades of Black...semi-review

[AtomicGladiator]

I noticed in the HERO news the comments that the e-book "Shades of Black" has not sold very well. I'm one who bought it, and think it is a really well-written adventure, with great graphics. Unfortunately, I can't use it, because it requires at least three other Champions books, none of which I have.

 

The two most major villains are not included, and many of the minor ones are left out as well. If this was an Adventurer's Club adventure, maybe I might have expected that, but it certainly caught me by surprise after paying for the adventure.

 

I might suggest to HERO that adventures should include stats for all the characters, or at least the major ones. I can't help but think that word of this has gotten out and that is why the book hasn't sold well. It's simply not usable as it is.

 

If HERO doesn't want to include stats for the main characters in a book, at least a disclaimer would be appreciated. If you buy software that requires another program to use it, it generally says so on the box. I think HERO should be upfront about this and post notices that using certain adventures requires buying other books that contain the characters for the adventures.

[Guest Keneton]

I can empathize with you and in general agree, but many D&D adventures come with just the HP and the page referance for the Monster Manual. This is not all that uncommon in gaming today.

 

That said, I do not think that reprinting a villain is all that bad for Hero.

 

[Monolith]

Re: Shades of Black...semi-review

 

Originally posted by AtomicGladiator

Unfortunately, I can't use it, because it requires at least three other Champions books, none of which I have.

I believe the purpose for not including the write-ups for two of the villains In Shades of Black is two fold: First to not be redundant on reprinting material already available to most of the fanbase, and Second to inspire people to buy the books in question.

 

DOJ is a game company whose wellbeing depends on fans purchasing books. The fact that you purchased SoB but do not have either Champions or Conquerors, Killers & Crooks would seem to indicate that you are part of the prime target group for the adventure in question. Hopefully SoB will inspire you to purchase one or both of these additional books, and by doing so increase the usability of both SoB and Champions Battlegrounds for you, as well as giving DOJ revenue needed to continue to publish good product.

 

I certainly understand where you are coming from in your "semi-review," but I also understand that DOJ is in the business to make money. I think most of the time DOJ gives us far more than we ask for.

[Ghost who Walks]

Originally posted by Monolith

I believe the purpose for not including the write-ups for two of the villains In Shades of Black is two fold: First to not be redundant on reprinting material already available to most of the fanbase, and Second to inspire people to buy the books in question.

 

DOJ is a game company whose wellbeing depends on fans purchasing books. The fact that you purchased SoB but do not have either Champions or Conquerors, Killers & Crooks would seem to indicate that you are part of the prime target group for the adventure in question. Hopefully SoB will inspire you to purchase one or both of these additional books, and by doing so increase the usability of both SoB and Champions Battlegrounds for you, as well as giving DOJ revenue needed to continue to publish good product.

 

I certainly understand where you are coming from in your "semi-review," but I also understand that DOJ is in the business to make money. I think most of the time DOJ gives us far more than we ask for.

I feel the need to comment.

 

I have bought a lot of modules, scenarios, and sourcebooks over the years. I hvave most of the stuff that has been put out for the Hero system. But I have successfully managed NOT to purchase several "game system" books.

 

I don't have the rules book for Marvel, yet I have some of their modules.

 

I have never purchased GURPS basic set, but I have around 50 of their supplaments.

 

In short I buy HERO stuff for their game system, and have had to get many of my adventure ideas from other sources, or do them myself. (fortunately this situation is changing)

 

I was somewhat annoyed when I bought the Hero System 5th edition, and found it had no characters in it. While I knew how to make character, I would always look at the characters first when I bought a HERO product....it would give me an idea how usable it is.

 

I don't really see the harm in including pre-published stats in an electronic book, it might help the electronic books sell better. I think the originator of this thread raises a valid point. I would also like to point out that virutally the same situation occured in Champions Battlegrounds.

[Hermit]

Speaking for meself

 

I agree there should be a disclaimer, though I did notice (and was glad for) the battle charts in the product had many of the stats needed to run a combat with BP and Talisman. Fortunately, I also had both books necessary for complete write ups, so have been nothing but overjoyed with Shades of Black.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Ghost who Walks

I was somewhat annoyed when I bought the Hero System 5th edition, and found it had no characters in it. While I knew how to make character, I would always look at the characters first when I bought a HERO product....it would give me an idea how usable it is.

I believe that was an honest oversight on DOJ's part due to the rush of getting FREd printed. I would also point out that the 44 page Genre-By-Genre pdf was made available for free soon after this to rectify the situation. I am sure these pages will be added to future editions of FREd.

 

I don't really see the harm in including pre-published stats in an electronic book, it might help the electronic books sell better. I think the originator of this thread raises a valid point. I would also like to point out that virutally the same situation occured in Champions Battlegrounds.

I do not think most of the people who would purchase SoB would know whether the write-ups were included or not. So I do not believe it would have any bearing on sales. As I said above, most (and by most I will assume 51+% of the Champions fans) already had the required books and so there was no availability issues. As to your points about Champions Battlegrounds, I mentioned that above, and believe the same reasoning as for SoB applies.

[AtomicGladiator]

I don't knw D&D, but the Monster Manual sounds like a "basic" source. If the characters I'm talking about were included in 5th Edition rulebook, I would have no complaint. I really don't complain much about the "minor" characters not being included. But the two MOST IMPORTANT characters are not included, each published in a different book. It seems a bit much to be forced to buy two $20 something books to play an adventure that costs half that.

 

Maybe as you say, I am the target audience for this kind of money-making tactic, but it didn't work for me. I think the opposite has happened, and a lot of people have stayed away from the excellent "Shades of Black" because of this. I know I certainly will not be buying more HERO products until I am sure they are relatively complete as sold.

 

It IS a well-done adventure, has a lot going for it including great maps and detail, but it is just unusable as a stand-alone product, and should have been labelled as such.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by AtomicGladiator

It IS a well-done adventure, has a lot going for it including great maps and detail, but it is just unusable as a stand-alone product, and should have been labelled as such.

I agree it should have been labeled like CB was, but I do not agree that it is unusable. It would not be that difficult to provide write-ups yourself if you really found the adventure to be of merit, which you seem to have.

[TechnoViking]

I still think DOJ needs to include all stats with the adventure they publish. I think a stat block with no background would not prevent the sell of other books, and would allow the books to used stand alone.

 

Mike

[AtomicGladiator]

Originally posted by Monolith

I agree it should have been labeled like CB was.

 

Glad you see my point. I'm also glad to find out that the same problem exists with Champions Battleground before I bought it. If it was labeled at some point, I certainly cannot find that disclaimer now. I had been considering buying that one, but there seems little point since I don't have the other needed books. What other books are needed to play that adventure?

 

but I do not agree that it is unusable. It would not be that difficult to provide write-ups yourself.

 

One of the reasons I buy adventures is so I don't have to work that hard as a GM. And Shades of Black provides specific tactics which use specific powers for these villains. I could substitute other characters but I'm unlikely to come up with the proper mix of powers without more information than is provided. Still, "unusable" is too strong a term. It would be more accurate to say that without these characters, the product is "unusable as intended". Semantics aside, my point is that it is unreasonable to ask me to shell out an extra $40 or so to play this adventure. Yes, of course that would help support HERO, but worthy as that may seem, that wasn't my goal in buying the adventure. I'd be more inclined to buy future products as a satisfied customer.

[Quasar]

Originally posted by AtomicGladiator

I don't knw D&D, but the Monster Manual sounds like a "basic" source. If the characters I'm talking about were included in 5th Edition rulebook, I would have no complaint. I really don't complain much about the "minor" characters not being included. But the two MOST IMPORTANT characters are not included, each published in a different book. It seems a bit much to be forced to buy two $20 something books to play an adventure that costs half that.

 

I would argue that Champions, Champions Universe and CKC are "basic" source material for playing Champions. Your argument is like saying (using the D&D example) that you have the Players Handbook, but don't understand why you can't play an adventure you bought when you don't have the Monster Manual, or Dungeon Master's Guide.

 

I also have to agree though that a disclaimer saying "Use of this product requires the Hero System 5th Edition Rulebook, Champions and Conquerors, Killers and Crooks." wouldn't be asking too much.

 

Quasar

[AtomicGladiator]

Originally posted by Quasar

I would argue that Champions, Champions Universe and CKC are "basic" source material for playing Champions. Your argument is like saying (using the D&D example) that you have the Players Handbook, but don't understand why you can't play an adventure you bought when you don't have the Monster Manual, or Dungeon Master's Guide.

 

I also have to agree though that a disclaimer saying "Use of this product requires the Hero System 5th Edition Rulebook, Champions and Conquerors, Killers and Crooks." wouldn't be asking too much.

 

Quasar

 

As I said, I am not really familiar with D&D. I assumed that the Monster Manual was akin to something like the Hero Bestiary. Shades of Black DOES require characters from the Hero Bestiary, but they are not main characters, so they are not my complaint.

 

If D&D publishes adventures that do not include the most important characters, that doesn't make it right.

 

I've played HERO games for years. I've seen a few times when adventures would suggest the use of characters from other books, but I've never seen one where the MAJOR characters were not included in the adventure. Most adventures included everything right down to the agents. (I do recall that the Genocide sourcebook used a character from "Champions of the North" as a top henchman for one of the leaders. But it was hardly a character integral to any particular plotline.)

 

If the new policy is not to include the major characters, it's a policy I don't like, and I'm voicing a complaint against it.

 

I love the HERO system and I'm happy to see it resurrected by the group that is putting out the new books. I want them to be financially successful. And the product, Shades of Black, is otherwise a fine one. If you have all the other books, I would recommend it.

 

But I want to discourage HERO from assuming that everyone has these other books when they put out an adventure. Or, at very least, a disclaimer so that you know what books are required.

 

I'm still curious about what books are required for the "Battlegrounds" adventure. There is no disclaimer on it, and I'm certainly not buying it until I know.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by AtomicGladiator

I'm still curious about what books are required for the "Battlegrounds" adventure. There is no disclaimer on it, and I'm certainly not buying it until I know.

There is a disclaimer on the back of the book stating it used characters from CU and CKC.

[AtomicGladiator]

Originally posted by Monolith

There is a disclaimer on the back of the book stating it used characters from CU and CKC.

 

Thanks! Appreciate that.