Lezentauw Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 I am working on a skilled magic system. What I have so far is a rough draph. I would appreciate if I can get some advice for what I have done so far. Let me know what needs to be improved, or what I am missing. Please keep in mind that magic is going to be rare to uncommon at best. Magic in Tellene is not created by the spell caster, rather it is a force that is present in the outside world. A mage channels the magical energies into spells. The act of channeling is not something that is done easily. For even if the mage is successful in channeling the magical energy, he is left drained from the energies running through him. Since magic is an external force, there are fluctuations to the amounts of magic in the world. Some areas are richer, and some areas are poorer in magical energy. When a mage casts a spell he pulls the magical energy from the world. As he pulls the magical energy from the world, he drains his current location of magical energy. The magical energy is replenished in time. Casting spells require a strong will and intellect. The actually art of casting spells is guided by the will of the caster. The stronger willed a person is, the better he is able to channel the magical energies. Intellect also plays an important part in casting, as it shows the casters knowledge in magic, and how to properly exert his will upon magic to the desired effect. The magical skill is Ego based, and cannot be raised by any other means than raising the EGO characteristic. The main skill will be modified at a rate of –1 per 5AC in the spell. Each school of magic is represented with a Knowledge Skill. They serve as the characters knowledge of that school, and also act as a complimentary skill for the magic skill. A mage purchases his spells as 1 pt Knowledge Skills. This represents that the mage has studied and learned the purchased spell. Spells must be purchased from a predefined list. A mage may only create spells with the Spell Research skill, or with special permission from the GM. A mage can purchase skill modifiers for the Knowledge Skills. These skill modifiers can be used as a bonus for magic skill, knowledge skill, or for OCV. Shown as follows. [a] 2pt +1 with specific spell 3pt +1 with 3 spells (must be of same school) [c] 5pt +1 with specific school [d] 8pt +1 with all schools known A mage pulls the energy required to power a spell from his surrounding area, and then channels it through him. When a mage channels magic, he is left physically drained from it. Therefore all spells are required to cost END. As a campaign rule, all spells will drain a mage of LTE, and not as normal END. Part of the complex nature in casting spells, calls for a series of gestures. The gestures are not required to dramatic and can even be concealed. At the casters option he may instead use dramatic gestured for a bonus to casting a spell. Incantations follow the same guidelines as gestures. A mage is only required to speak the incantations, they do not need to be any louder than a whisper. Though at the mages option he may choose to speak them louder for a bonus to casting a spell. A foci is strongly recommended for a caster. All spells will be built with the understanding that a mage will be using a foci. The foci does not need to obviously be a part of casting a spell, unless the mage chooses to due so to get a bonus to casting a spell. If a mage is ever without his foci, he can still cast spells though they will be at a penalty and with an increased endurance of x2. The Foci is defined as IAF. Due to the complexity of the spells, a mage must concentrate throughout the casting of a spell. This can lead to penalties if the mage is casting a spell in the middle of combat, as he can easily be distracted. At the mages discretion he may take extra time in casting a spell. This will grant a bonus of +1 per level dropped down the time chart. Another aspect of the complexity of spells, a mage must have an INT equal to or greater of the INT MIN of a spell to cast it. If a mage attempts to cast a spell that he is not physically capable to fully understand, he will suffer penalties to his skill roll. If the mage fails at casting that spell, the caster will then be subject to dire side affects from the spell. Casting a spell beyond the understanding of a mage is not something that should be taken lightly, as it can be as extreme as costing the mage his life. The side affects are never consistent, the severity of the side affect depends on how much the mage misses his magic role by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lezentauw Posted March 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System So does anyone have any advice for what I have done so far? I am really hoping to get opinion about it. If you do not like what I am thinking for a magic system, let me know why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System I am working on a skilled magic system. What I have so far is a rough draph. I would appreciate if I can get some advice for what I have done so far. Let me know what needs to be improved' date=' or what I am missing. Please keep in mind that magic is going to be rare to uncommon at best.[/i'] Magic in Tellene is not created by the spell caster, rather it is a force that is present in the outside world. A mage channels the magical energies into spells. The act of channeling is not something that is done easily. For even if the mage is successful in channeling the magical energy, he is left drained from the energies running through him. Since magic is an external force, there are fluctuations to the amounts of magic in the world. Some areas are richer, and some areas are poorer in magical energy. When a mage casts a spell he pulls the magical energy from the world. As he pulls the magical energy from the world, he drains his current location of magical energy. The magical energy is replenished in time. Casting spells require a strong will and intellect. The actually art of casting spells is guided by the will of the caster. The stronger willed a person is, the better he is able to channel the magical energies. Intellect also plays an important part in casting, as it shows the casters knowledge in magic, and how to properly exert his will upon magic to the desired effect. The magical skill is Ego based, and cannot be raised by any other means than raising the EGO characteristic. The main skill will be modified at a rate of –1 per 5AC in the spell. Each school of magic is represented with a Knowledge Skill. They serve as the characters knowledge of that school, and also act as a complimentary skill for the magic skill. A mage purchases his spells as 1 pt Knowledge Skills. This represents that the mage has studied and learned the purchased spell. Spells must be purchased from a predefined list. A mage may only create spells with the Spell Research skill, or with special permission from the GM. A mage can purchase skill modifiers for the Knowledge Skills. These skill modifiers can be used as a bonus for magic skill, knowledge skill, or for OCV. Shown as follows. [a] 2pt +1 with specific spell 3pt +1 with 3 spells (must be of same school) [c] 5pt +1 with specific school [d] 8pt +1 with all schools known A mage pulls the energy required to power a spell from his surrounding area, and then channels it through him. When a mage channels magic, he is left physically drained from it. Therefore all spells are required to cost END. As a campaign rule, all spells will drain a mage of LTE, and not as normal END. Part of the complex nature in casting spells, calls for a series of gestures. The gestures are not required to dramatic and can even be concealed. At the casters option he may instead use dramatic gestured for a bonus to casting a spell. Incantations follow the same guidelines as gestures. A mage is only required to speak the incantations, they do not need to be any louder than a whisper. Though at the mages option he may choose to speak them louder for a bonus to casting a spell. A foci is strongly recommended for a caster. All spells will be built with the understanding that a mage will be using a foci. The foci does not need to obviously be a part of casting a spell, unless the mage chooses to due so to get a bonus to casting a spell. If a mage is ever without his foci, he can still cast spells though they will be at a penalty and with an increased endurance of x2. The Foci is defined as IAF. Due to the complexity of the spells, a mage must concentrate throughout the casting of a spell. This can lead to penalties if the mage is casting a spell in the middle of combat, as he can easily be distracted. At the mages discretion he may take extra time in casting a spell. This will grant a bonus of +1 per level dropped down the time chart. Another aspect of the complexity of spells, a mage must have an INT equal to or greater of the INT MIN of a spell to cast it. If a mage attempts to cast a spell that he is not physically capable to fully understand, he will suffer penalties to his skill roll. If the mage fails at casting that spell, the caster will then be subject to dire side affects from the spell. Casting a spell beyond the understanding of a mage is not something that should be taken lightly, as it can be as extreme as costing the mage his life. The side affects are never consistent, the severity of the side affect depends on how much the mage misses his magic role by. Well, ok then, if you really want critique here we go; and I havent had my coffee yet so Im cranky. Sorry in advance for any rampant jerkishness and take it with a grain of salt. Initial impression: Its a very very limited means of Spellcasting -- I personally probably wouldnt bother with it as a player because of the numerous and severe limitations. Also, its very sketchy how it actually interacts with the normal HERO System rules for designing Power Constructs with many non-standard features and no explanation of how they interact with existing rules. Some specifics as I think of them: What do you call this system of Magic? Tellene is the name of the World for the setting of Kalamar. Is this set in Kalamar? They deplete the area of magic. Kind of like the defiler in Dark Sun, you mean? Or more like the ambient magic system described in Fantasy HERO? From the text where you say the "magic skill is EGO Based", I gather that you mean each Spell is bought as 3 pt EGO Based Skill which cannot be raised...uh no, wait, bullet point 2 indicates that there is one EGO Roll and the Spells are bought as "1pt Knowledge Skills". Hmm...Ok. Might consider just making this a simple EGO Roll -- why require a character to pay 3 pts for an EGO Roll they already have for free? If you are going for an EGO Based system you might consider just requiring all Spells to be based on ECV either natively or with BOECV as an Advantage instead. Cuts down on die rolls and is kind of different. Granted, its hideously expensive, but this system is already so limiting that its a mere drop in the drawbacks well. Theres little differentiation between Spells with varying AP, aside from the stiff and flat -1/5 AP penalty on the associated roll. Can that be modified to -1/10, -1/20, or no penalty to roll in the Spell builds? How does that interact with the arbitrary -1/5 AP for no Lim if yes? How exactly does the Knowledge Skill(s) interact with the Ego Roll? As a complementary Skill Roll? You realize that you get +1 per 2 the roll is made by? With the -1 per 5 AP on the main roll that basically means for every 10 AP in the Spell, you would need to make a KS roll by 4 just to offset the -2 AP penalty. That means if a caster had an EGO of 20 (13- EGO Roll) and cast even a minor Spell effect with a mere 30 Active Points (-6 at the AP/5 rate), they would need to make their KS roll by 12 to give the caster an even up rate. With even a 20 INT (13- INT Roll) the caster would need a 23- KS roll to be able to make that on average. Er, no wait, you indicate that Spells are 1 pt Knowledge Skills -- er, you mean familiarities? Whats the EGO Roll for then? The Spell itself is the complementary roll? This is totally backwards from how the HERO System usually works, where the specific skill is the primary roll and any other related skills are candidates for a complimentary roll. Er...so do I need a Spell Research Skill or dont I? What is a Spell exactly? A Power Construct I assume, but since the RC never enters into this system wheres my motivation for slapping on Limitations? Is there a minimum Lim total or something? Are some Lims not allowed like, say, 0 END? Skill level raises.....um......ok. Where to start? So I buy these as seperate SLs per 1 pt KS which are the actual Spells, but which are only used as complimentary rolls for the EGO roll which isnt modifiable according to the first bullet point, but which is modifiable by these funky SLs according to the 4th bullet point? And, as an added bonus, these SL's can also be used as CSL's? Hmm...2pt levels which can be applied to either of 2 Skills or to OCV -- that sounds like a 3pt tight group to me, pretending for a moment that 3pt CSLs can be used as SLs and vice versa. 3pt levels with 3 1 pt Spell KS's of "the same school". What determines the "school" of a 1 pt Spell KS I wonder? 5pt levels with specific school. Hmm...the mysterious school concept again. What schools? 8 pt levels with all schools known. Why wouldnt I just take an 8pt SL instead and get +1 with ALL my skills? Granted, they wouldnt also function as All Combat Levels for my Spells. But I suppose I could pony up 2 extra points for an Overall Skill Level and have the added benefit of being rules legal for my 2 points. Straight up LTE instead of normal END expenditures? Nice. -1/5 AP, multiple involuted 1pt KS's, an EGO roll that I paid an extra 3 points for, and a pile of oddball SLs/CSL's to cast magic, and Im going to need a nap after 3 or 4 Spells. Hmm. Do the warrior equivalents have to take a nap after swinging their swords 3 or 4 times, or do the rogue equivalents take a nap after they skulk 3 or 4 times? Whats my pay off here? Basically, I paid a lot of points, learned a 100% non-standard subset of rules, have to worry about juggling Spell effects and maintaining much more character information than the other players, and I can cast a handful of Spells which all have a massive chance of failure due to the flat -1/5 AP penalty which I didnt even get any Lim value for apparantly. Ah, here we go, some Spell design guidelines. Hrm....Gestures can be concealed....so then they are not like the actual Gestures Limitation in the Rulebook then, which must be clearly Gestures or are not worth any Limitation value? Oh, but thats ok, I guess, because Incantation can also be whispered and thus are also not like the actual Incantations in the Rulebook which must be clearly heard and clearly be Incantations. But if I do use Incantations (or Gestures) in the standard way I get a bonus....uh....but sadly the bonus isnt listed. Maybe the bonus is feeling warm and fuzzy about being in compliance with the rules when I do? "A Foci" is called a Focus. Foci is plural. So in this case, you mean a MU has a single Focus, and without this single Focus they'll essentially pass out from LTE if they try to cast any Spell worth wasting time on, and with an additional -2 to boot. What happens if it is broken, stolen, or lost? Can I ever get another one? Why do I need this Focus anyway? Did I learn my Magic or not? Why do I need the equivalent of a woobie to cast my Spells? Concentration.....so Concentration doesnt lower my DCV, but if I dont concentrate I suffer distraction? Or do you mean I must be at 1/2 or 0 DCV when I cast and if I dont this means what? More penalties I presume. I may take Extra Time for bonus to the roll....but you dont mean Extra Time like the Limitation, you mean gaining bonuses to a Skill Roll from taking more time than necessary to perform a skill. Ah...ok...so I guess Spells are 1/2 Phase actions then normally? Full Phase? Its one of the mysteries of the unknown I guess. INT Min of a Spell? Er...ok. Care to describe what exactly an INT Min is supposed to be and how it's calculated? If I have more INT than needed for an INT Min do I get to add extra DCs or effect to my Spells on the fly like with a STR Min, or is this something else? I think you mean "beyond their current comprehension" or something similar rather than "physically unable to understand", which implies that a persons intelligence is determined solely by the physical composition of their brain rather than the sum of their experiences and learned behavior. More penaltys. Yay. Im suffering how much of a penalty to cast a fireball at this point? Im afraid to calculate it. Hey, the best part! If I fail a Spell, and I certainly will more often than not thanx to the massive penalties I take to do anything at all with this magic system, not only do I suffer Long Term Endurace loss up the wazoo, but some random, vaguely defined "bad thing" will happen to me too. Finally, the exercise in futility Ive been looking for to truly challenge my Magic User character and make me wish I had played any other profession at all! Ok, in summary, all smart-ass comments aside, this system has almost no grounding in the normal rules of the game and no real indication on how they interact with the rules that they blithely overturn, use the same name as (but arent the same) and so on. Its also murkily written and not self-describing to the point that Im still not sure exactly how this system is supposed to function mechanically. Finally, all that aside, what is clear is that however the mechanics are meant to work Magic Users are essentially screwed under this system. It has just about every conceivable form of control placed upon it making it dangerous to use, highly unreliable, personally exhausting, and at a massive rate of failure. Maybe some background material about the setting you plan to use this in would indicate that this is appropriate, but for a general use Magic System this flys like a lead baloon. Why are you so viciously limiting Magic Use? Just a cursory glance at the rate the penalties stack up and the note that side effects occur if the roll is failed sets of alarm bells IMO. I mean, who would want to play such a character? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarf Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System Although he didn't have to be so crabby about it , I totally agree with Shrike here. This system looks too heavily limited to be playable, even for a rare magic game. The -1 per 5 AP penalty seems especially harsh. You might try writing up a character with some example spells for a playtest, because I think this is going to play out more limiting than you intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System Although he didn't have to be so crabby about it ' date=' I totally agree with Shrike here. This system looks too heavily limited to be playable, even for a rare magic game. The -1 per 5 AP penalty seems especially harsh. You might try writing up a character with some example spells for a playtest, because I think this is going to play out more limiting than you intended.[/quote'] Yeah, Im sipping my coffee now and feeling much better about the world, so looking back I was a bit of an ass. Thats why I normally dont post in the mornings. Still, the basic points stand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System Why not have each spell be a 3 pt INT or EGO based skill? 1 point is way too cheap to my way of thinking. The base cost of 3 and an additional 2 points per level is more reasonable. Further, I would be very careful about skill levels. Skill based magic is pretty cheap (even at 3 points per spell) to begin with. It would require a bit of GM oversight, but if the spells are pre-written and approved it shouldn't create too many problems. Then all you need is a modifier chart. Personally - I think Shrike has a number of good points. In addition, your system is somewhat convoluted and hard to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted March 31, 2004 Report Share Posted March 31, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System Here are two Skill based Systems that I designed that may serve as useful comparison points for you, or not, but here they are regardless: a Fam based system: Totemic Shamanism: http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/PackageDeals/totemicPackages.shtml and a 3/2 Skill based system: Magecraft: http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/PackageDeals/magicianPackages.shtml Of the two I like the Magician system better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lezentauw Posted April 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System First of thank you for the replies, even if they were a bit brutal in spots. Like I stated early in my first post, this system is in the rough draph stage. I am sorry if it was difficult to follow, I sometimes have problems stating things so that everyone can understand.. As to Shrike's skilled system, I have printed it out, though I have not taken the time to read it yet. I have not created my own magic system yet in the Hero System. Up till now, I have been using Keith Curtis' magic system that was in the Digital Hero. I like the magic system, though it does not fit the feel I am wanting for my campaign... So with that said, I was hoping for some feedback. I really do not want to be creating another magic system, nor to frustrate a player if they choose to play a channeler. Channeler's are what I now call the mages of my campaign world by the way. As to Shrike's question about the campaign world, it is set into the Kingdom of Kalamar campaign setting. Though I am adapting it to my vision of that campaign world. So that you can better help me, I think that I should describe how I envision magic works in my campaign world. I see a channeler forcing his will upon the ambient magic that is around him by the use of a predefined formula, or what we would call a spell. The stronger willed a person is the easier it is for him to cast spells, as he force his will upon the ambient magic. As the magic is channeled through him, it drains him of his own energy. The spells are a complex set of formula, that requires a channeler to fully understand. Some spells may even be more complicated than the channeler can fully understand. When a channeler does understand a spell, he is able to force his will upon the magical energies more efficiently. A channeler can burn the area of magic, though not in the same manner as a defiler in the Dark Sun campaign. This is something that I got from the campaign book for the KoK. One of the Dieties is resposible to prevent magic from extinguished from the campaign world, and I thought that it would be a neat touch to impliment that into the spell system. To totally burn magic out of an area though, it is going to be pretty hard though. I do not have the details totally figured out yet, but it will not be as simple as just draining the END RES of the local area. I hope that helps a bit, for how I envision magic to work. Let me try to now explain my thinkings of how and why I made the choices I did. I decided to use EGO as the base char to represent a channeler forcing his will upon the ambient magic. Rather than to have a seperate magic skill for each school, I was thinking that it would be better to have just one skill to represent the actual magic skill. By then having a channeler use a KS for each school that he wishes to know, I would have a skill to represent the knowledge that the channeler has for each school. I was wanting a channeler to be able to use his knowledge of that school to help him in casting spells as a complimentary roll. (For some reason, I was thinking that it was +1 for each point it was made by. Which was part of the reason I used the -1/5 rather than the -1/10. This may very well be too limiting.) Normally a skill is bought as 3/2. Three points for the skill and two points to get a +1 with that skill. I think that I stated it incorrectly about the EGO roll. I should of stated that the magic skill is a Skill based upon the EGO characteristic. At this point I was frowning away from allowing a channeler to use the standard +1/2 pt rule for skills, and was wanting to incorporate Magic Skill Level system that mirrored the standard CSLs... As to all the ambigous bonuses and penalties, they are there because I am not sure at what level to set them. Both the incantations & gestures are figured at -0 for this campaign. They are a slight modification to what was presented in Fantasy Hero. Since I was being harsh with the -1/5, I knew that I had to give bonuses. So I came up with the use of incantations and gestures as the HERO system describes them to get a bonus. As to the focus, yes it can be replaced. I was trying to incorporate a way for a mage to still cast spells, without a focus. I also came up with the fact that if a channeler used the focus in an obvious manner, that he can get a bonus for that as well. Here are some of the things that I was considering for my campaign that affected my decisions. A great sword is pretty much going to max at 2d6, boostable to 4d6 with STR & CSLs. That puts the great sword at an equilivent 30AC/60AC. So I am wanting to keep the channeler to these levels. A 60ac spell should be very hard to cast in this campaign. As to the LTE, it was my balancing factor for a channeler having a more varied set of abilities than say a warrior would. The whole reason I was wanting to use a skilled spell system, is that I feel a channeler should not need to be spending a gazillion more points than the warriors do to be just as competent. If both professions only need to spend 20 to 30 points on their profession, everything would be on an even playing field. Ok, hopefully I got everything. Please continue to critique. And, yes I will read SK's skilled system.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarf Posted April 1, 2004 Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System As to the LTE, it was my balancing factor for a channeler having a more varied set of abilities than say a warrior would. Keep in mind that the unreliability of a required skill roll is also a very significant balancing factor, especially if you use AP penalties. The whole reason I was wanting to use a skilled spell system, is that I feel a channeler should not need to be spending a gazillion more points than the warriors do to be just as competent. If both professions only need to spend 20 to 30 points on their profession, everything would be on an even playing field. Exactly what the spells channelers have access to are like is going to be important when making that decision. If a channeler is going to be just as capable as a fighter in combat and also have the ability to use unusual attacks like drains and general utility spells like flight, then it should cost more to be a channeler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted April 1, 2004 Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System I recently posted this on another thread, but it bears repeating here I think: Heres some notes on Control Factors for various Magic Systems extracted from my website. Taken from this page (the page is still in "Rough Draft" mode as I revise the Magic documents on my site): Magic System Design (Rough Draft) CONTROL FACTORS The following list of control factors that a GM should consider when designing a Magic System is not exhaustive, but is intended to help a GM balance their Magic System(s) for play. A Magic System does not have to have Control Factors, but most do, and many have several types of Control Factors at varying levels of severity. OPPORTUNITY COST CONTROL Alternately called an "overhead" cost, this is one of the most direct means of keeping Magic Systems on a short leash. This means of control revolves around the Real Cost of all Magic abilities and related enablers, and aims to ensure that the cost in Character Points to a character for the privelege of using a particular type of Magic is sufficiently high so that other character types remain competitive (as their Character Points spent on things other than Magic are of comparable utility). In most systems where the Magic User pays most or all of the cost of their Magic Systems nothing else needs to be added to ensure that the character has insufficient points left over to over-excel beyond other characters built on similar points. In some other Magic Systems, such as a VPP model, where the Magic User is not paying directly for the cost of their spells additional measures are necessary to keep the "total cost of ownership" for their Magic System at a level that is fair to characters of other archetypes. Requiring one or more Power Skill rolls associated with the learning or use of Magic abilities, or requiring access Talents to gain access to Magic abilities are both straightforward ways of working in "hidden costs" into a Magic System. As a side note, VPP's already have a Opportunity Cost worked into them via the aptly named "Control Cost" mechanism, so be sure to consider that factor when deciding whether or not a VPP based Magic System has a sufficiently high Opportunity Cost. VOLUME AND FREQUENCY CONTROL Another means of keeping Magic Users under control is to work in specific limits on either the number of Magic Abilities they may have, and/or the number of Magic Abilities they may use in a given span of time, and/or the number of uses of Magic Abilities they may user per span of time. This is probably the most common means of controlling Magic Users in Fantasy RPG's in general and a concept most players are already familiar with in some form or another. An example of this of course is the classic X/Day/Spell Level mechanic or xD&D, but finite Mana points, Fatigue levels, and any system where a de facto practical limit on the number of uses of their abilities is placed upon Magic Users are all examples of this type of restriction. The HERO System contains several mechanics that can be used to good effect for this type of control, including Endurance, Long Term Endurance, Endurance Reserve "Mana Pools", Charges, and the unusual Delayed Effect Advantage. RELIABILITY CONTROL Still another means of ameliorating the impact of Magic Users is to restrict the reliability of the their abilities. If their Magic works sporadically or has some element of unreliability individual Magic Users are less overpowering due to a lack of consistency. This method also forces Magic Users to be conservative in their playing, which can prevent them from dominating play. Whether Magic sometimes inherently fizzles, is based on some primal force of Chaos, requires the constant appeasement of some higher entity, or is just a very intricate process that has to be executed in exactly the correct fashion, they are all samples of Magic Systems that suffer from a form of Reliability Control. The HERO System contains to essential mechanics that can be used to good effect for this type of control, Activation and Requires a Skill Roll in all their various permutations. APPLICABILITY CONTROL Yet another means of limiting Magic Use is to define broad meta-rules regarding what Magic can and can't do at a very high level, or what a particular Magic System can and can't do at a lower level. If Magic cant do certain things like bring back the dead, travel to or open portals to other dimensions, allow people to fly unassisted, or has other such blanket restrictions regardless of system this is a form of Applicablity Control. If a specific Magic System grants Magic abilities that are only usable while the Magic Users qualifies for a certain yes/no status or acts in accordance to some particular code of behavior, this is also a form of Applicability Control. In the HERO System there are many ways to go about putting some form of Applicablity Control into effect. One method is the 4th Edition style "allowable Powers" method, where a GM indicates which Hero System Powers are allowable to build Spells upon. Another method is Reason-from-Effect based, where in the GM indicates what game effects are and are not possible regardless of the base Powers used to build the effect. Another method is to apply "Limited Power" Limitations to individual Power Constructs indicating that they can't be or may only be used in certain circumstances. IMPACT CONTROL Some Magic Systems are inherently risky or outright dangerous to a Magic User, and others have in-game effects which are undesirable, expensive, or deleterious. While their Magic may be powerful it comes with either a steep price or a dangerous risk, or both. Any Magic System where the caster suffers some long term effect or there is a risk or certainty of collateral damage, or the Magic User must enter into some bargain/contract, or use of Magic abilities has some severe cost such as requiring expensive and/or difficult components which are consumed in the process of using the Magic can be said to have an Impact Control. This type of restriction can take many forms in the HERO System, ranging from Side Effects, expendible FOCI, Susceptibilities to ones one Magic Powers, and so on; however in many cases this type of control factor is also a feature of the setting and is applied liberally by the GM at their discretion independent of anything on a character's sheet. This might take the form of an organization that persecutes Magic Users, public sentiment, or even a custom house-ruled mechanic for something like the Paradox concept from Mage the Ascension or Quiet from Ars Magica. ACQUISITION CONTROL Some Magic Systems limit the number of Magic abilities a Magic User may have, or control the manner in which a Magic User may gain new abilities, or have a fixed/set list of prebuilt Power Constructs which is not expandible. Systems with specific number limits on Magic abilities, require elaborate study periods with Characteristic or Skill Rolls to learn a new Magic ability, or more commonly there is a specific list of allowed prebuilt Power Constructs are all limited by an Acquisition Control. This type of control is mostly meta-game, determined by guidelines put into place by the GM. A GM might write up a list of Magic abilities and simple say thats all that there is available. A GM might say that a character may only have as many Magical abilities as their INT rating, or that a Magic User must learn Magic abilities to a "list" via an amount of study time equal to Active Points divided by 10 in hours or days or weeks, that Magic Users must make a Skill Roll of some sort at -1 per 10 AP, or any other high level campaign ground rules. ACCESS CONTROL Some Magic Systems are not easily accessible, requiring some special quality to use, or individual Magic abilities are not freely available and must be garnered from finite difficult to find/use sources. Some Magic Systems might require instruction which is only attainable from certain discerning and structured sources. Any Magic System where a person must be born with the propensity for Magic, must be taught at a veritable handful of difficult-to-get-into establishments or individual mentors who only take a limited number of apprentices aver the course of their lifetime, or where Magic abilities must each be learned from rare tablets which are difficult to find and jealously guarded, a system where each Magic User has one native ability and can only get more abilities by slaying other Magic Users, or any other system that deliberately restricts the ability to use Magic Abilities is under a form of Access Control. There are several ways to handle this in the HERO System such as Custom Talents that allow access to Magic abilities, using a form of Independent on Magic abilities to make them "takeable", and so forth, but this method of control is largely a factor of the setting and how prevalent the GM makes opportunities for characters to come into contact with new Magic abilities. CASTABILITY CONTROL Some Magic Systems have guidelines regarding the way in which Magic abilities are "cast" or otherwise used. Some systems allow a Magic User mostly unrestricted access to all of the their available Magic abilities at once where as other Magic Systems require a Magic User to pre-select a list of Magic abilities available to them for a given day. Other Magic Systems place restrictions on the where and/or how of Magic ability usage, the number of people involved, or other details. If a Magic System requires that all Magic abilities take (0 DCV Full Turn Incantations and Gestures), or that all available abilities for the day be listed in a VPP Pool at the beginning of each day, or require that all Magic abilities take Ritual or Window of Opportunity, or OIF: Bulky, and other such highly specific restrictions about the actual activation of the Magic abilities, then that type of Magic System has Castability Controls applied to it. There are dozens of ways of applying this sort of control in the HERO System, but the exact guidelines being applied are usually mandated as part of the campaign guidelines. POINT CAP CONTROL Some Magic Systems might be limited by actual Active Points caps. This could consist of a flat AP cap applied to all Magic abilities, a cap determined formulaically (such as Total Character Points/3 or 5 or some other formula), or something more complicated such as a system whereby several different types of Magic have varrying AP Caps based upon category of SFX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted April 1, 2004 Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System If I understand this correctly, you are: a) thinking of the spell costs as equivalent to weapon familiarities, not FAM:s hence the one point cost. The Ego roll is unmodifiable, EXCEPT by complementary skill rolls. As noted by KS and others, this makes big spells really risky - especially for combat. But as I understand it, this is what you want. c) I disagree that the system is unplayable - the relatively low cost of entry makes spell-dabblers quite playable, and very deadly: expect lots of warrior-mages and thief-mages (although the high EGO needed will restrict this). I've played for years with a much MORE restrictive magic system, in which mages take BOD from casting spells (and yes, I have had successful mage player characters). It does make combat mages rare to non-existent - but then that's what I wanted. It depends on what you want. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarf Posted April 1, 2004 Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System This doesn't seem like a particularly low priced system to me, because it can be awfully expensive to get your reliability up to something decent. For instance, it would take 30 EGO (60 points) to maintain your 11- chance to cast a mediocre 2d6 fireball. The knowledge skills and CSLs look pretty restricted in their applicability for their price, so I'm not entirely sure there's going to be enough help from there, but that depends on exactly what the final spell list will look like. If dabbling were done, it would have to be in spells around 10 AP or so. It depends on what you want. That's true, but make sure your players are into it too. As long as everyone is having fun, the system works. I should mention that I'm heavily biased towards high powered magic systems, so don't take anything I say too seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted April 1, 2004 Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System This doesn't seem like a particularly low priced system to me' date=' because it can be awfully expensive to get your reliability up to something decent. For instance, it would take 30 EGO (60 points) to maintain your 11- chance to cast a 2d6 fireball. [/quote'] Worse than that even. 30/5 = 6 + 9 = 15- 2d6 RKA Explosion 45 Active Points = -9 to the skill roll by the AP/5 method. Thats assuming the character shouts while brandishing an IAF to make it obvious and jumping up and down or making similar overt gestures and also is concentrating, and of course thats before the mystery penalty from the ominously unexplained INT Min enters into the equation. Oh, trust me, you dont want to make me break out the INT Min! So even without INT Min the caster with the ridiculously massive 30 EGO still has a 15-9 = 6- chance to make this roll. Unless of course they take a full Minute to cast it (unlikely in combat), in which case they have a "(not) much better" 8-. When the caster fails the roll, which the probably will, they suffer some rather dire and literally inexplicable side effects, and of course still take the 4 LTE for attempting to cast the Spell. Meanwhile the fighter in the group shakes his head and just takes a minute full of actions whacking foes with his 2d6 or better Sword, and saves a bunch of points too. So, basically, this magic system has: respectible Opportunity Cost Control, stiff Frequency Control, harsh Reliability Control, brutal Impact Control, confusing Acquisition Control, somewhat undefined Castability Control, and the creator has indicated he doesnt want Spells over 60 AP to ring up a Point Cap Control. We dont know if anyone can learn to use magic or not or if there is anything magic cant do so the jury is still out on Access Control and Applicability Control. In other words, if there is a general way to handicap a Magic System, this system probably has some element of it somewhere. Unsuprisingly it isnt exactly appealing to the average or even most masochistic players, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lezentauw Posted April 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System Right now it looks like there are two problems going on. One, I did not include enough information so that everyone can understand my system. Two, I think that I did not make my post entirely clear. A lot of confusion and misconceptions were made based upon me not posting it correctly the first time. I am sorry for that. I will try again, and hopefully it will be better understood this time. Since it looks like people are looking for hard nuts and bolts to the system, that is what I will try to post here. Please keep in mind that this is a preliminary and rough draft version. It is far from complete, as I am looking for help with it. Thank you. Magic is an ambient energy, that is all around. In some areas magic is very prolific, while in others it is very diminished. An END RES and END REC will represent the magic level in each area. As magic is pulled from the local area, it will drain the END RES. In the prolific areas, a channeler will have an easier time at casting spells. In those areas, he will recieve a bonus to his Magic Skill roll, and the spells will be aided at no extra End cost to him. In a diminished area, the channeler will suffer a penalty to his Magic Skill roll, and his spells will be suppressed. A new talent will exist in this campaign, called Magic Aura Sight. With Magic Aura Sight, a character has the potential to see the flows of magic. Not only can they see the flows of magic, but is also possible to see whether a person is channeling. If a channeler has this talents, and he succeeds his PER roll to sense the local magic, he recieves a +2 bonus to his Magic Skill Roll. This talent is not required for a channeler to cast spells, though a mentor may refuse to teach a pupil if they do not possess this gift. Likewise a character with this talent needs not to be a channeler either. Magic Aura Sight costs 15 pts, and 1pt for a +1 PER with Magic Aura Sight. A channeler, must have a Magic Skill to cast spells. The Magic Skill is based of the EGO characteristic. The Magic Skill is required for a channeler to cast spells in this campaign. This represents the characters ability to will the energies around him into a magical spell. The local area may cause a bonus or a penalty to the channelers Magic Skill roll, for the most part these areas are pretty rare. If a channeler chooses to uses optional limitations, which will be explained below, he will recieve bonuses to his Magic Skill Roll. The Magic Skill Roll will use -1/5ac in this campaign. The required INT MIN will affect this roll as well, both for good and bad. The Magic Skill Roll is also modified by a complimentary skill. I will cover the complimentary skill next. The cost for the Magic Skill is 3pts, and (at this time) it is not possible to increase this skill other than by the afore mentioned methods. Each school will be represented by a 3pt KS based off of INT. The schools are; Alchemy, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Nature, Necromancy, & Sorcery. Each KS will reflect the characters knowledge and understanding of that school. A channeler must have the knowledge for a school that he wishes to cast a spell from. Besides being used for the knowledge of each scholl, this KS will also serve as the complimentary roll for the Magic Skill. Each spell in this campaign will cost the channeler 1pt, which is treated in the same way as a weapon familiarity. This represents that a character has spent the time to learn and understand that specific spell. (Some of you think that this is too cheap, so I may do a 1pt/10ac of every spell) All spells must come from a predefined list, or the character must research that spell. Researching a spell, is a long and tedious process. The length to research a spell is dependant upon how powerful the spell is going to be. (I was going to have a seperate Spell Research skill, but I am now thinking of just using the KS for that spells school.) Required Disadvantages. The following disadvantages are required for each spell. Though a character will not have to pay Real Points for a spell, the limitations are listed for those that wish to know. Each spell is required to cost END. A spell may not be bought with a reduced endurance advantage. This is done to simulate the magic being channeled through the caster. As a campaign rule, all spells will be using LTE rather than normal END (I know that many of you object to this rule, so it is under reconsideration.) (REQUIRES END -1/2, -if needed-) Each spell is required to have gestures. These gestures do not need to dramatic and can be concealed. (GESTURES -0) Each spell is required to have incantations. The incantations do not need to be any louder than a whisper. (INCANTATIONS -0) Each spell must be purchased with Requires Skill Roll @ -1/5ac. (REQUIRES SKILL ROLL -1) Each spell is required to have a focus as IAF. If the channeler is without his focus, he suffers a -2 to his Magic Skill roll and X2 END. The focus is able to replaced through gameplay. This is to incorporate if a character does not have his focus for whatever the reason. (IAF -1/2) Due to the complexity of casting spells, each spell is required to have the Concentrate Disadvantage at 1/2 DCV. (CONCENTRATE 1/2 DCV -1/4) As another reflection upon the complexity of a spell, each spell must be purchased with INT MIN. This represents how hard each spell is to learn. Some spells are beyond a characters ability to fully understand them. If a channeler has an INT lower than the INT MIN, he will suffer a penalty to his Magic Skill Roll. This penalty will be -1 per point below the INT MIN. If a channeler has a greater INT than the INT MIN he will gain a bonus to his skill roll, as it is easier for him to understand the spell. This bonus will be +1 per 2 points above the INT MIN. If a character tries to cast a spell that has a higher INT MIN than the characters INT, then that character runs the chance of a side affect occuring. The side affect will only occur, if the character fails his Magic Roll & if his INT is lower than the spells INT MIN. Each spells INT MIN will be 9 + AC/5. The side affect is never consistent and varies upon how much the caster fails the skill roll by. (INT MIN -1) Optional Disadvantages These options are available for the caster to use if he wishes to. If a caster does chose to use any of these disadvantages, they will help him with a bonus to his Magic Skill roll. It is not needed for these disadvantages to be applied to the cost of a spell, since spells are not purchased with Real Points. Gestures- If a channeler gestures in a manner that is obvious from a distance, then he will recieve a +1 to his Magic Skill Roll. If a channeler uses exagerated gestures in a manner that a person would recieve a bonus to his PER roll, then he will recieve a +2 to his Magic Skill Roll. Incantations - If a character speaks the incantations out loud in an audible manner, then he will recieve a +1 to his Magic Skill Roll. If a channeler shouts the incantations so that a person would recieve a bonuse to hear him, then he will recieve a +2 to his Magic Skill Roll. Concentration - If a character concentrates upon his spell to the point of where he has a 0 DCV, then he will recieve a +1 to his Magic Skill Roll. OAF- If a character uses his focus in an obvious manner, then he will recieve +1 to his Magic Skill Roll. Extra Time- Most spells will only take the normal 1/2 action to cast. Some spells are purchased as taking more time, so this will vary per spell. If a caster wishes to take more time, he will recieve a +1 for every step down the time chart. Examples I will use a character with a 20 INT & 20 EGO for this example. Using the two skills required to cast a spell at their base level, they both will be at 13-. A channeler wishing to cast a 10ac spell will have an 11- for his Magic Skill (13 - 2 from ac of spell). The INT MIN for this spell is 11, so he will get a +4 bonus to cast this spell. With no other optional disadvantages the base Magic Roll is now 15-. On average a channeler can expect to get +1 from the complimentary skill in this case. The channeler would then be at an average of 16- to cast the desired spell. A channeler wishing to cast a 30ac spell will have an 7- for his Magic Skill (13 - 6 from ac of spell). The INT MIN for this spell is 15, so he will get a +2 bonus to cast this spell. With no other optional disadvantages the base Magic Roll is now 9-. On average a channeler can expect to get +1 from the complimentary skill in this case. The channeler would then be at an average of 10- to cast the desired spell. This is still a bit below average, but he can chose to start adding the optional disadvantages at this point to raise his Magic skill roll. Without going further than to a full phase for the extra time, a channeler chould achieve an average of 17- if he used all of the optional disadvantages. A channeler wishing to cast a 60ac spell will have a base of 1- for his Magic Skill (13 - 12 from ac of spell). The INT MIN for this spell is 21, so he will get a -1 penalty to cast this spell. With no other optional disadvantages the base Magic Roll is at 0. On average a channeler can expect to get +1 from the complimentary skill in this case. The channeler would then be at a total of 1- to cast the desired spell, which would be treated as 3-. Obviously the channeler would be using the optional disadvantages, just to get his chances up to a 7-. Most likely he would also increase the extra time here to increase the odds even more. This is the first time that the channeler would have to worry about failure as the spell has a higher INT MIN than he has as INT. While the last example seems very stark, these examples do not take into consideration the fact that most characters will have increased the KS to the school that the spell is in. In the last example with a 17- in the KS, and using a full turn would give the caster an average of 11-. THe Magical Aura sight is also not figured into any of these calculations. Hopefully you will be better able to read this, this time. I have removed my former Skill Levels, as they are a break from the rules. The normal skill level rules will be used for the KS's. If I am still missing things that you need to better evaluate this system, please ask. I will try to answer as best as I can. Thank you again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted April 2, 2004 Report Share Posted April 2, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System Well peruse as time permits, but 1 quick ? -- when you use the abbreviation "ac" you really mean Active Points, yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earen Posted April 2, 2004 Report Share Posted April 2, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System A new talent will exist in this campaign' date=' called Magic Aura Sight. ... Magic Aura Sight costs 15 pts, and 1pt for a +1 PER with Magic Aura Sight.[/quote'] Is this built from the Enhanced Senses rules as a Detect? It would seem to be: Magic Aura Sight: Detect Magic (Sight Group), Discriminatory, Analyze? Or is it more of a mental skill and is not Sight Group-based? Keep in mind that if it is Sight Group-based and a mage gets (Sight Group) Flashed, they won't be able to exercise this +2 bonus to their Magic Skill roll. Even if it isn't a Sight Group sense, it can still be Flashed ... or Darknessed ... etc etc Not a criticism, just something to think about ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted April 2, 2004 Report Share Posted April 2, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System KS - you have a good point: a mage attempting to cast a decent fireball spell would have to be awfully optimistic under this system. In fact, under my system as well, that kind of thing is pretty damn rare. Which is EXACTLY what I wanted. I have to admit, when I looked at this, I thought two things: Dabbler mages: yep, they'd effectively be limited to spells of 10-15 points for things they wanted to use in combat. But 10 points of entangle and a longbow can be a useful (if limited) combination. 10 points of clinging is better than climbing. 5 points of flight, usable by up to 16 others won't get you across the continent, but it will get you over the castle wall. 5 points of tunnelling will fox almost all pursuers. A 15 point HKA - no STR min can let you do nasty damage with your bare hands, when you have to. A 15 DEF forcewall makes a handy barrier and 10 points of forcefield or mystic armour is a lifesaver - as is 10 points of regeneration. And so on. I've played several Grey Mouser-type rogues who combined high sword combat skills with a 15 point VPP, and it was an incredibly useful combination. The other possibility that sprang to mind was one-shot triggered spells (potions, incantations, arcane items and so on) or spellcasters who do mostly non-comabt work. A mage who can cast mass invisibility, can afford to take 5 minutes over it, or even an hour - but he has to be prepared. As I say, it depends on what you want. As a GM I absolutely did not want the mage to be a mobile weapons platform. So I limited (you could say crippled) magic to make it almost impossible to cast safely in combat. This system does the same. A mage can still wear armour and wield a sword, so it's not like they are useless, but in my game it's the dedicated warrior that shines in combat. So I think you are being a little harsh - sure, a system like this might not be to everyone's taste (actually, I think we can agree it would not be) - but as long as the GM and the players are aware of what they are getting, I see no problem with it. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarf Posted April 2, 2004 Report Share Posted April 2, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System The example made it a lot clearer for me. I can see how this system could work for small spells now. As one last bit of friendly advice, now that the mechanics are getting settled, you could write more plain english, non-rules descriptions of the system into your draft. For instance, a descriptive header over each paragraph, similar to what you used in the first paragraph about magic levels in areas, would be helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lezentauw Posted April 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System Yes for some reason I got in the habit of using Active Cost (AC) to represent Active Points... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted April 2, 2004 Report Share Posted April 2, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System So I think you are being a little harsh - sure, a system like this might not be to everyone's taste (actually, I think we can agree it would not be) - but as long as the GM and the players are aware of what they are getting, I see no problem with it. cheers, Mark I just think the ROI is very low and that the system is overly complicated. I havent had time to read the second pass yet, so some of my objections may be addressed therein, but if what Lezen wants is magic users that can only cast 10 to 15 AP spells, or wants to force them to take a lot of extra time to cast spells if they want a decent chance of success there are much more direct ways to do it. Even if he wants to use a Spell Skill system specifically (rather than a more straight forward limited VPP or MP in this case), something like: Each "Spell" is an EGO based Power Skill roll functioning on the standard 3/2 model that gives the caster access to a specific base Power, not including Special Powers. Stop Sign Powers require GM Permission to buy a Spell Skill for and may be further limited by the GM. Thus a Channeler buys the privelege of being able to cast Spells based on RKA as a 3 point EGO based Skill, and the ability to cast Spells based on Mind Control as another 3 point EGO Based Skill. Spell effects may be on Triggers, but the Same Spell Skill may only have one "set" Trigger at a time. Thus if a Channeler has the EB and RKA Spell Skills they may have one Trigger set for both, but only one each. At the GM's discretion a character might be allowed to buy the same Spell Skill multiple times so that they can maintain multiple Triggered effects for that kind of Power. END is paid when the Trigger is set, as well as any other negative effects. All Spells must cost END. END Reserves are not allowed. Spells may not be built with activation Limitations in the normal fashion (but see below). Casting a Spell is a 1 Turn Skill usage. Using the Time Chart on page 29 it is a -3 penalty to the Skill Roll to cast a Spell in a Phase or -6 to cast a Spell in a 1/2 Phase {as an aside why is Segment on this chart? Logically you cant uses a Skill in a Segment -- if you use it you are taking an action and thus its a Phase}. Casting Spells in Combat also incurs a -1 penalty if opponents are greater than 4" away, -2 if within 4" of an opponent, and -3 if in melee range with an opponent. Casters may buy Penalty Skill Levels vs the Combat Penalty but not the Time Penalty. Spell Skill rolls also suffer the standard -1/10 Active Points penalty. Spells that have an Active Cost greater than the caster's INT suffer a -1 penalty to Spell Skill rolls for every 10 Active Points the Spell exceeds the casters INT by. Skill Levels with INT Based Rolls can be applied to offset this penalty (and only this penalty). Each time a caster casts a spells they may choose to suffer the following Limitations; for each -1/4 in Limitations applied the caster benefits from a +1 bonus to their Skill roll. The allowable Limitations are: Incantations Gestures Concentration Increased END SE (Always Occurs): AP/10 in LTE (-1/2) or AP/5 in LTE (-1) All other Limitations require GM Permission on a case-by-case basis, but GMs are forewarned that much like with a Cosmic VPP, most Limitations dont truly Limit such a character as they effectively can use a different version of a Spell each time they cast. This form of Magic requires a minimum of 15 character points in Spell Skills, and Spell Skills can only be learned from other Channelers who know that Spell Skill or from rare and highly prized Codecis. Codeci are a powerful bargaining chip, and a valuable commodity in areas where Channelers are common. They are often traded as currency or as payment for favors, or as direct swaps (my Codex for your Codex) between Channelers. It takes 30 - the Channelers INT in days of dedicated study to learn a Spell Skill. At the GM's discretion a Channeler may study in less than dedicated fashion (say, while on the road or adventuring), in which case it takes twice as many days or more at the GMs discretion. A Channeler may write a Codex for a single Spell Skill that they know, but it is time consuming and difficult to do so. A Channeler must have a seperate INT Based Knowledge Skill called "Scribe Codex", and it takes (3d6 x 3d6) days of uninterrupted (8 hours per day) scholarly work and writing before the Channeler is able make their Scribe Codex Skill Roll to see if they succeeded in creating a Codex. The Skill roll suffers no penalty, but if the Channeler fails the roll their scribblings are confused drivel and of no use to anyone. Channelers dont have any mystic language or the like, so Codeci are language dependent -- if a character can't read the language a Codex is written in it is of no use to them for learning a Spell Skill. As a consequence to this most experienced Channelers tend to learn at least the basics of other major lanuages so that they can make use of more Codeci. Channelers do not create Magic Items; their Magic is of a personal nature. Channeler Magic has the SFX of Magic, Arcane, Channeling, and the Channeler themselves in addition to any effects-driven SFX such as Fire for a "Fireball" Spell. Thus when the Channeler Lezenaski casts a Lightning Bolt Spell, his Spell has the SFX of Electricity, Magic, Arcane, Channeling, and "Spell cast by Lezenaski" Thus Skippy-us the Channeler has 18 EGO (13- rolls), 15 INT. He has 5 Spell Skills: Blow Stuff Up (EB, 13-, 3 rc) Dont Get Hurt (FF, 13-, 3 rc) Fly Around (Flight, 13-, 3 rc) Dont See Me (Invisibility, 13-, 3 rc) Brain Peek (Telepathy, 13-, 3 rc) (15 rc so far) He also has 1 Overall Level (+10 rc) Penalty Skill Levels: +3 vs. Combat Casting with All Spells (+9rc) Skippy-us is in combat but the closest opponent is more than 4" away, and he wants to cast Blow Stuff Up as a Full Phase action, building his EB as a 3d6 Radius (+1), which is 30 Active Points; this causes a -3 penalty to the ensuing roll. He decides he will Incant, Gesture with Both Hands, 1/2 DCV Concentration, and pay x2 END (-1 1/2) for a total +6 bonus The penalties are: 1 Time Step (-3), 30 AP (-3), Combat (-1), AP exceeds INT by 15 (-1) = -8 The bonuses are: -1 1/2 in Lims (+6), Offset Combat Penalty (+1), Overall Levels (+1) = +8 Skippy-us has an even up 12- chance to cast his 30 AP Fireball as a Full Phase action, and will pay 6 END. He could also take more Limitations to increase his odds further. If he wanted to also take 6 LTE (AP/5; -1) he'd get a nice fat +4 to his roll practically guaranteeing his success for example. Or 0 DCV Con rather than 1/2 DCV would yield another +1, and so on.... So, this system does what Lezen wants -- it involves both EGO and INT, is Skill based, allows the trappings of Spellcasting to be used to offset penalties, but at the casters discretion when the Spell is cast. Cons: A lot of penalties, difficult to cast big spells. Based on 2 Characteristics. Not very good for combat situations in general. Pros: Other than the penalty and bonus calcs relatively very simple. Each Spell Skill functions as a scalable VPP for Spells based on a single Power allowing a very granularized open check flexibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted April 2, 2004 Report Share Posted April 2, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System An exploration of the flexibility of this model: Skippy-us learns a new Spell: Sensory Occlusion (Darkness, 13-, 3 rc) This allows him to cast Spells based on Darkness. Lets run thru a few builds of Darkness and see where it goes. Skippy-us conveniently has PSLs vs Combat Penalties, so Im just going to leave that out of the calcs below -- however other Channelers would be suffering an additional -1 to -3 penalty for casting in combat. Sight Blot (Set Trigger Version) Darkness to Sight Group 3" radius, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Trigger (At Will; +1/2) (52 Active Points); Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) -5 AP Penalty, -4 INT Penalty +5 Limitation bonus, +1 Full Minute Bonus, +1 OL net -3 penalty = 11-; 10 END Sight Blot (Combat Casting Version) Darkness to Sight Group 3" radius, Personal Immunity (+1/4) (37 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) -4 AP Penalty, -2 INT Penalty, -3 Full Phase Penalty +5 Limitation bonus, +1 OL net -3 penalty = 11-; 8 END Sight & Sound Blot (Trigger Version) Darkness to Sight and Hearing Groups 2" radius, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Trigger (At Will; +1/2) (44 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) -4 AP Penalty, -3 INT Penalty +5 Limitation bonus, +1 OL, +1 Full Minute Bonus net -0 penalty = 13-; 8 END Sight & Sound Blot (Combat Version) Darkness to Sight and Hearing Groups 2" radius, Personal Immunity (+1/4) (31 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) -3 AP Penalty, -2 INT Penalty, -3 Full Phase Penalty +5 Limitation bonus, +1 OL net -2 penalty = 11-; 6 END Mind Blot (Triggered Version) Darkness to Mental Group 3" radius, Trigger (At Will; +1/2) (22 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) -2 AP Penalty, -1 INT Penalty +5 Limitation bonus, +1 OL, +1 Full Minute Bonus net +4 bonus= 17-; 4 END Mind Blot (Combat Version) Darkness to Mental Group 3" radius (15 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) -1 AP Penalty, -0 INT Penalty, -3 Full Phase Penalty +5 Limitation bonus, +1 OL net +2 Bonus= 15-; 2 END or -1 AP Penalty, -0 INT Penalty, -6 Half Phase Penalty +5 Limitation bonus, +1 OL net -1 Penalty= 12-; 2 END Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted April 2, 2004 Report Share Posted April 2, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System Magic is an ambient energy, that is all around. In some areas magic is very prolific, while in others it is very diminished. An END RES and END REC will represent the magic level in each area. As magic is pulled from the local area, it will drain the END RES. In the prolific areas, a channeler will have an easier time at casting spells. In those areas, he will recieve a bonus to his Magic Skill roll, and the spells will be aided at no extra End cost to him. In a diminished area, the channeler will suffer a penalty to his Magic Skill roll, and his spells will be suppressed. [/i] This is similar to a system I drummed up for someone on these boards about a year ago....will try to locate it later. However, one major point, this suppressing and aiding bit is going to require a lot of book keeping and recalcing, because even the same spell effect goes off differently based upon where the caster happens to be standing. A new talent will exist in this campaign, called Magic Aura Sight. With Magic Aura Sight, a character has the potential to see the flows of magic. Not only can they see the flows of magic, but is also possible to see whether a person is channeling. If a channeler has this talents, and he succeeds his PER roll to sense the local magic, he recieves a +2 bonus to his Magic Skill Roll. This talent is not required for a channeler to cast spells, though a mentor may refuse to teach a pupil if they do not possess this gift. Likewise a character with this talent needs not to be a channeler either. Magic Aura Sight costs 15 pts, and 1pt for a +1 PER with Magic Aura Sight. Why not just use the Mage Sight Talent in Fantasy HERO? A channeler, must have a Magic Skill to cast spells. The Magic Skill is based of the EGO characteristic. The Magic Skill is required for a channeler to cast spells in this campaign. This represents the characters ability to will the energies around him into a magical spell. The local area may cause a bonus or a penalty to the channelers Magic Skill roll, for the most part these areas are pretty rare. If a channeler chooses to uses optional limitations, which will be explained below, he will recieve bonuses to his Magic Skill Roll. The Magic Skill Roll will use -1/5ac in this campaign. The required INT MIN will affect this roll as well, both for good and bad. The Magic Skill Roll is also modified by a complimentary skill. I will cover the complimentary skill next. The cost for the Magic Skill is 3pts, and (at this time) it is not possible to increase this skill other than by the afore mentioned methods. You mean you cant increase the Skill in the normal fashion but may modify individual Skill Rolls. Each school will be represented by a 3pt KS based off of INT. The schools are; Alchemy, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Nature, Necromancy, & Sorcery. Each KS will reflect the characters knowledge and understanding of that school. A channeler must have the knowledge for a school that he wishes to cast a spell from. Besides being used for the knowledge of each scholl, this KS will also serve as the complimentary roll for the Magic Skill. Alchemy? Usually Alchemy involves making magic items of some sort. How does that work in to this "Channeled" Spell casting model? Each spell in this campaign will cost the channeler 1pt, which is treated in the same way as a weapon familiarity. This represents that a character has spent the time to learn and understand that specific spell. (Some of you think that this is too cheap, so I may do a 1pt/10ac of every spell) All spells must come from a predefined list, or the character must research that spell. Researching a spell, is a long and tedious process. The length to research a spell is dependant upon how powerful the spell is going to be. (I was going to have a seperate Spell Research skill, but I am now thinking of just using the KS for that spells school.) So I have a 3 point EGO Roll Skill that cant be modified (and is thus the same as a normal EGO roll except that I paid 3 extra points for it), and School Skills, and now I must also by FAMs for each individual Spell construct? Required Disadvantages. The following disadvantages are required for each spell. Though a character will not have to pay Real Points for a spell, the limitations are listed for those that wish to know. You mean Required Limitations. Disadvantages are an entirely different thing. Each spell is required to cost END. A spell may not be bought with a reduced endurance advantage. This is done to simulate the magic being channeled through the caster. As a campaign rule, all spells will be using LTE rather than normal END (I know that many of you object to this rule, so it is under reconsideration.) (REQUIRES END -1/2, -if needed-) Each spell is required to have gestures. These gestures do not need to dramatic and can be concealed. (GESTURES -0) Each spell is required to have incantations. The incantations do not need to be any louder than a whisper. (INCANTATIONS -0) Each spell must be purchased with Requires Skill Roll @ -1/5ac. (REQUIRES SKILL ROLL -1) Each spell is required to have a focus as IAF. If the channeler is without his focus, he suffers a -2 to his Magic Skill roll and X2 END. The focus is able to replaced through gameplay. This is to incorporate if a character does not have his focus for whatever the reason. (IAF -1/2) Due to the complexity of casting spells, each spell is required to have the Concentrate Disadvantage at 1/2 DCV. (CONCENTRATE 1/2 DCV -1/4) Havent changed anything here, and all my previous reservations still apply. As another reflection upon the complexity of a spell, each spell must be purchased with INT MIN. This represents how hard each spell is to learn. Some spells are beyond a characters ability to fully understand them. If a channeler has an INT lower than the INT MIN, he will suffer a penalty to his Magic Skill Roll. This penalty will be -1 per point below the INT MIN. If a channeler has a greater INT than the INT MIN he will gain a bonus to his skill roll, as it is easier for him to understand the spell. This bonus will be +1 per 2 points above the INT MIN. If a character tries to cast a spell that has a higher INT MIN than the characters INT, then that character runs the chance of a side affect occuring. The side affect will only occur, if the character fails his Magic Roll & if his INT is lower than the spells INT MIN. Each spells INT MIN will be 9 + AC/5. The side affect is never consistent and varies upon how much the caster fails the skill roll by. (INT MIN -1) Gah! This is needlessly complicated in my opinion. If the caster already has a high INT, their KS: School skill will be higher, and they'll make their complementary Skill roll by more. If their INT is low the opposite. This makes for a HUGE swing. Warrior wears chainmail (DEF 6). Channeler cant hurt him with anything less than a 2d6 Killing Attack (and even then only with an above average roll). So lets say 30 AP is the minimum reasonable attack spell worth casting in this situation. Granted Drains and other unusual attacks might be more effective, but none are as lethal. So if the caster has a 15 INT the INT Min has no impact. If they have 20 INT they get a +2 in addition to the +1 on their KS: School Skill for a net +3. If they have 10 INT they suffer a net -6 penalty (in an already penalty laden system). So with only a 10 point spread in INT (10 to 20), you have a spread of 10 pips of penalty. A 1 for 1 ratio in other words. Thats exceptionally extreme. Ive got to split so I cant keep going point by point, so Ill just sum up: While clearer, this 2nd pass still doesnt address any of my reservations/critiques. This system is still too cumbersome and too limited for use unless you really just want crippled magic users who cannot hold a candle to other professions. They are paying a lot of points for what they get, and suffer for it in the process. I highly recommend that you streamline this system, or at least play test it before you implement it "for real". Write up some characters representing all the basic professions you expect in play at 2 or 3 point strata, and just run them against each other or against some tossed together scenarios. See which ones perform well and which ones dont. 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Lezentauw Posted April 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System Until I create the spells, and then perform a mach playtest for myself. The magic system will stay in preliminary status. After the playtesting is done, then I will know if it works or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted April 2, 2004 Report Share Posted April 2, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System Found that other post ( http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4578&highlight=Magic+System ) on an ambiance based Magic System. Here it is in its entirety. There is quite a bit of stuff in the playtest document regarding concepts that would be helpful to model this. However, in the interests of being helpful, here are some suggestions: Use a Multipower. Make all slots take RSR. Take a Susceptibility: Must study spells periodically (set time frame) or take penalties to the RSR used by the Multipower. Thus, the longer they go without studying, the worse it gets. This may work out to be a Limitation of 0 points, but make it a campaign requirement and dont allow it to be 'bought off' as part of the campaign ground rules for the Magic System. Its easiest to wrap this up with the other parts of the system into a Package Deal. Require all Powers in the Multipower to cost END. Require all Powers in the Multipower to come from an END Reserve. Use an END Reserve with no Recovery. Treat 'Aether' as a global "Regeneration" to END Reserve (a Heal bought identically to Regeneration, but feeding the END Reserve; thus it happens 1/Turn (or more, but never less) automatically) used by the environment on every living thing (like light or oxygen; freely available for 0 points -- the Winds of Magic per se). Treat 'Places with thin boundaries' as a bigger "Regeneration", or if you choose to set the default Extra Time to more than a TURN on the Regen, then perhaps just places where the Regen time is more frequent. Particularly strong spots might be both faster and larger Regenerations. Treat 'Place with thick boundaries' as smaller and/or slower Regeneration areas. Treat 'Place with no Aether' as no Regeneration. Treat 'Place of Aether Absorbtion' as a Drain vs END Reserve. As a twist on the spell book bit, you might allow a character to "Master" spells, and/or perhaps there are "True Spells". These are spells bought outside of the Multipower that dont have an RSR. The character pays full points for the power, but will never forget it and can use it at will so long as he has Aether to pay for it. Alternately you could just let them buy the RSR off the slots, but in a MPP thats usually only a point or 3; not that big of a deal. Under this type of system, Aether is what makes a spellcaster dangerous, so an interesting variant of the Mage Duel might be based on an "Aether Absorbtion" ability (Transfer END Reserve to END Reserve, RSR, Opposed Roll, Requires Eye Contact, BOECV, etc). Similarly, "counter magic" might be proactive instead of reactive and consist of a Suppress, Drain, Transfer or Dispel vs END Reserve; basically cut an opposing caster off at the source BEFORE they can cast a spell. Also, you could go even further and make Aether addictive. You could give casters a dependency on it. If they are ever in a low Aether or null zone they could suffer withdrawal. You could add a variant Enraged (Euphoric) to thier package triggered by being in high Aether areas and then buy powers and characteristics with the limitation Only While in Aether Euphoria (-1/2). A caster might have +5 EGO, +5 PRE, +5 INT Only While in Aether Euphoria for example, so that in a high Aether zone there is a chance that he "gets a buzz". This could be coupled with a SE: Always Happens After Euphoria Ends to impose an equal amount in penalties for a certain amount of time, or a simple Drain vs each Characteristic. * * * * * * If you keep the default Aether "Regeneration" low (like 1/20 Minutes), spell casters will get very frugal with thier magic. If a single spell with creditable END cost takes an hour or more to recover from, casters will not be eager to blow thru thier spells. I foresee that the average caster would buy thier END Reserve up very high so that they could stockpile Aether, but it's still a costly endeavor to blow through 5 or 6 spells of any particular size. Further, casters would find thin aether spots and perch on them like there was no tomorrow. Some less powerful casters might be 'squatters' lurking around thin Aether spots to get a buzz, boost thier power, and/or take control of it. There might be a pocket industry of Aether Slaves; people that have the innate talent for casting (an END Reserve) but no actual knowledge (Skill Roll or MP); using the Aether Absorbtion ability (or 1 like it) a caster could use such a person as a battery. Similarly, Apprentices could serve the same function. Between the size of the MPP, the skill roll, and the END Reserve there is lots of room for power variations (ie, one caster might have a monsterously high skill roll, meaning he is consistent with his magic, while another might have a big fat MPP meaning he is overwhelming with his power, whereas another might have a larger END Reserve meaning he is able to both sustain his spellcasting and is less sensitive to vagaries in the Aether Flow (because he has a surplus of Aether stored within himself), and variations in between. YMMV.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted April 2, 2004 Report Share Posted April 2, 2004 Re: Preliminary Skilled Magic System I also did up a different Ambiance Nature Magic System for Druids which Im sure I posted, but cant seem to find. I have a copy at home so Ill post it for comparison purposes tonite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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