Paying Points for Equipment...

[sbarron]

In the paying full price for magic thread, someone again mentioned making every character pay points for everything. I've thought about this before, and can see some real possibilities for it. In games where the PCs aren't constantly collecting magic items as they go, or trading in the +2 sword for a +3 sword without thinking twice, it seems like this would work well.

 

I would really like to try that style of play. I mean, how many characters in literature ditch their family armor for some suit they picked up off a battle field? Or sell their fathers sword once they find a better one in a tomb? In most games I've been in, that happens constantly. And I suppose if your father was a farmer that had a rusted out blade, ok. But if your father was the 3rd Earl of Grandor, and your PC's to be the fourth, that sword might be as much a part of your character as the family name. Well, it should be...

 

So, I'd like to give this a try, and I have some questions for anyone who has given this system a go.

 

1) How many points did you give each character? Did you give them characeter points and equipment points, or just a set number of cp?

 

2) Did you allow magic weapons? It seems like you should, but maybe not depending on the style you wanted.

 

3) Did you allow mix and match between "classes?" Did you let the classic warrior spend a few points on battle magic spells he picked up? Seems like it would be ripe for abuse, but maybe not.

 

4) Did you enforce the recommended limits from FH?

 

I'll probably think of some other questions. Thanks

[Xiawarr]

Re: Paying Points for Equipment...

 

Sbarron,

 

Here is a thread that I started a while back that you might find useful.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306&highlight=xiawarr

 

I have always had my players pay points for everything, that way I am assured that the characters are fairly balanced against one another.

 

What has always appealed to me about the Hero System is its use of a balanced point system.

 

I usually use 75+75 for skills and characteristics and a 50-100 point pool for equipment, powers (martial arts, mutant, psionic) and/or magic. It allows players flexibility to get what they want and still maintain balance. I have mostly used this in a gamma world-esque post-apocalypse setting. The players seem to be pleased with the results.

[CorpCommander]

Re: Paying Points for Equipment...

 

This is how I do it.

 

I think having points gives a nice limitation on character creation, but once a fantasy or scifi game gets going where you can buy equipment it becomes important to not worry about points but limiting what players can get easily.

 

For example the local city square with the big market area: do you allow them to just sell +1 swords? I don't. you can hardly find anything useful in the market beyond normal usefulness in my game. Food, rope, polls, prosaic weapons, etc.

 

Magic items/weapons in my world all have history and often times curses of one form or another. How about a powerful sword that warns you of ambushes, but everywhere you go you end up IN ambushes (with some warning!)? Party leader to sword holder - "Lose that thing!" hehe! I typically have wierd magic weapons - not ones that are just extra accurate or sharp. You'd want to keep dear old dad's sword because its more balanced in utility. The magic stuff you'd only find A) in a crypt in the hands of someone who likely won't want to part with it. Also, since the magic weapons are very rare and unique they identify the holder to some degree. "You see a woman in chain upon a mighty charger. she is bearing a The Flaming Sword - you thus recognize her as the Red Handed Kin Slayer Kristin, "widowed" wife of King Cormeer and daughter to the highland chieftan of Suchandsuch kingdom."

 

Want a magic sword? You can trade for it. Trade blows that is! Have at you.

 

So basically I make magic special. Its powerful and hard to come by. Once you've come by (and that ain't easy) it you can either deal with the curse laid upon it and/or deal with the reputation of the item.

 

One thing that is fun to do is come up with 20 unique magical items for your world. Develop a short history for each. Place them either in very hard to get to places, in dark and dangerous crypts or in the hands of very powerful and protective heroes/anti-heroes in your world and then let the players find out about the magic items via rumors and what not. The adventures practically write themselves. Note who in the world would want such an item, who has it or how it is otherwise hard to get and then draw conclusions from there. The thieves guild, if there is one in your world, is going to be a major problem for the party if they run around with anything obviously powerful and live in tents in the woods or stay at the cheap 1 copper inn outside the town walls!

 

As for crafting of magic items, make that a life time study that precludes adventuring so party members can't make their own stuff easily. The will have to find some extra ordinary materials and go to an enchanter.

 

Anyway those are some ideas.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Paying Points for Equipment...

 

Sounds cool CorpCommander! I like your ideas.

[Markdoc]

Re: Paying Points for Equipment...

 

We ran all our initial FH games like this, but in the end we dropped it because it added in subtle distortions that got ever more bizarre as the game went on.

 

And these were in games where plot elements were very rarely directed at "kill the monster and loot the cave".

 

To take a few examples: Warriors tended to specialise in one or at most two weapons - why buy HKA multiple times? This ended up in the situation where you had experienced warriors who knew how to use a sword - but not a knife or a spear. Along similar lines, we got the problem where the players, one way or another, couldn't get things they logically could have acquired: the players are setting off for an expedition into the mountains that might last weeks or even months - they can't take a pack mule or riding horses, because they don't have the extra points.The ranger-type only takes 12 arrows, because that's all he paid points for, and so on.

 

None of these problems are fatal and they don't affect the actual playing of the game, so if they don't bother the GM or his players, this certainly enforces a degree of balance. But I have to admit it bugged the hell out of me, until I changed over to a "free equipment" style of play, which meant the balance had to be built into the system another way.

 

cheers, Mark

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Paying Points for Equipment...

 

I've thought about this, and I see some of the problems that have been posted. Here's a twist:

 

Tools: all tools add +2 to a specific skill

Weapons: make a character's STR killing damage

Armor: adds +3 DEF at -1 DCV/DEXr

Weapon Types: short/medium/long (2H). Each category has its advantages (short can be used in grabs and close in, medium are good all round and can be used with shields, long have reach).

Shields are "tools".

 

Then, make the characters pay points for anything beyond that. Does the pulp hero not change weapons because he's only good at one, or because it doesn't matter which one he uses so he keeps his current one for style.

 

Then use Deadly Blow to allow people to do more damage. Someone wants to be a good knife fighter, he doesn't have to put points into STR or anything else. 7 pts gets him +1 DC with knives. If you are feeling generous, make the 7 pt category short/medium/long/thrown/ranged instead of by WF type.

 

"magic" items:

just have the characters pay for them. Period. However, should they wish to sell them, through whatever exchange system you have, the points invested in the attunement to such items are "locked". This means that if a character finds a 7 pt magic item he has to pay 7 pts to attune to it. If he later finds a different item he would rather use he can move those 7 pts to it, but he never gets them back. Characters can attune to different items at a dramatically important moment.

The heroes just got back to their castle after getting their hind-ends handed to them by Lord Omigodhestuf. Gidget, the king of rogues, normally has 8 4-point tools on him to aid him in his "endeavors". While the heroes lick their wounds he throws open his armoire and carefully places each tool in a carefully shaped niche inside. He then delicately opens a drawer which looses an ominous glow, revealing a sword in a bed of roses. He reaches down, grasping the fine dragon-skinned grip, drawing forth the jagged toothed blade. With a deft flip of his sword-master arm, he strikes the aggressive pose of the Nendarin Sword Dancer, the sword's teeth spinning on the edge of the blade with a slight hum.

 

He looks over his shoulder at the resting heroes.

 

"Groovy".

 

//Gidget has just swapped his 8 4-point items to 1 32-point item. He doesn't normally walk around with it because it isn't necessary normally.

Other examples include the knight who owns a fine suit of armor, but doesn't wear it all the time because he would rather have his other items. However, when it is time to do nothing but battle, he dons the armor with an appropriate amount of ceremony.

 

Such a campaign should probably be more focused on action and adventure than on loot acquisition -- that just doesn't work in this kind of game without introducing questions of point to money conversion.

 

There are probably some other details to be worked out, but I think this works. This lets you have regular thugs (15 STR = 1d6K with a weapon, be it knife, sword, or spear) without them having to pay points for it. Just stick to the philosophy that mundane items provide some mundane value that can be enhanced through a general application of points.

 

Let me know if this works for you. I would be happy to correspond and help work out the details as this is something I've been thinking about for a while.

[CorpCommander]

Re: Paying Points for Equipment...

 

mudpyr8, thats a fantastic idea! Let me develop it a little further.

 

What you seem to be talking about is a new kind of framework. One whose benefits are similar to multi-powers and vpp. No cost break is assumed and its not an infinitely variable vpp either.

 

Lets call it the Equipment Framework for now. EF for short.

 

An EF represents the total amount of equipment a character my posess at any one time. It can contain as many pieces of equipment as the character can afford to pay for with money. However it is rated on the maximum number of real points the character puts into the EF. If a character has a 32 point EF it may contain 100 different pieces of equipment, but the character can only equip with 32 points worth.

 

The equipment store must be a physical container or space. It must be large enough to physically store all the equipment. If it is small and unorganized (chest) it should push up the time it takes to retrieve equipment. If it is large it will pose additional challenges in re-equiping. A character cannot take the Extra Time limitation on equipment because it is hard to retrieve from the EF. The extra time it takes to retrieve from the EF is variable by the very nature of it. If your equipment is stored in a locker in your base in Nashville, TN then its going to take a while to get it when you are in San Francisco, CA.

 

A character can loan equipment out of this reserve, but obviously can't equip with anything no longer there. A character can even save equipment in this reserve even though its real points are greater than the reserve. The character simply can't equip with that equipment without first attuning to it. This allows a character to be given something powerful by the GM. Use the following Attunement Time limitations to figure out how long it takes to attune to your EF:

 

Attunement Time

----------------

5 minutes -1/4

20 minutes -1/2

1 hour -3/4

6 hours -1

and so forth... see the progression on 5ED pg. 187

 

Critique this. Lets develop this idea. I think its a good one and it definitely solves a problem I have in another setting I am developing.

 

Another, semi-related idea is having players with index card boxes. The box represents the EF and the index cards are the equipment. To equip a player pulls the cards they need out of the box. They can't reequip without returning to their equipment store.

 

There might be cost breaks for differentiating your EF as a back pack versus a fixed bank vault. I am sure that there are lots of offsets to any storage situation. A backpack can't hold as much as a bank vault but its right there - you just have to drop it and go through it. Its also unsecure so you can be robbed. It might be too restrictive visualizing the EF as a physical storage space because people tend to have lots of places to store stuff (trunk of car, pockets, base arms locker, etc.)

 

Anyway, worth brainstorming on!

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Paying Points for Equipment...

 

That could work, although that seems awful similar to Resource Points which will be part of Dark Champions. That might also solve your problem as well.

 

I think what you have going is a good way to go. I think the equipment store can be anything, anywhere, with attunement based on the points shifted around.

 

25% for 1 minute

50% for 5 minutes

75% for 20 minutes

100% for 1 hour

 

That way it scales with the size of the Equipment Pool. I guess that said it is really nothing more than a VPP with Can only Change at the Appropriate Time/Location -1/2 (use the % chart above for time required), No Skill Required +1, Powers are Limited by Equipment Character Posesses -1. This last limitation means that when the character is created he has one set of equipment. After that, he can aquire new pieces.

 

This makes the pool cost 1.4 points per point in the pool (includes control cost and ads/lims thereon). As a campaign rule you could state that the "world' pays for the control cost, but since everyone has to pay for an equipment pool of some kind you might as well have everyone pay the control cost as well.

 

Items loaned from one character to another simply "lock" those points. The character loaning the item cannot recover those points until the item is returned or the GM declares the item lost (and unrecoverable).

[CorpCommander]

Re: Paying Points for Equipment...

 

That could work, although that seems awful similar to Resource Points which will be part of Dark Champions. That might also solve your problem as well.

 

 

That way it scales with the size of the Equipment Pool. I guess that said it is really nothing more than a VPP with Can only Change at the Appropriate Time/Location -1/2

 

Resource points, hmmm. Haven't been following DC's development. I'll give it a look when it comes out (and have been thinking of buying it anyway.)

 

As for the VPP it lacks the major limitation VPPs have - active points limitation.

 

I saw a Star Trek phaser that was written up as a 180 active points. Some of the equipment I want to give to my party will also have high active cost offset by appropriate limitations.

 

I'll have to run this past my group and see what they think.

 

--Pete

[Markdoc]

Re: Paying Points for Equipment...

 

If you are going to allow players to go over the active points of the equipment pool, by waiting a little while, how is this any difference - in practice - from just handing the stuff out for free?

 

And you come back to the problem that Grok the Inestimable rushes back to the keep to get the kickass demon sword to deal with the demon who's whooping it up in the palace and then says "Hang on guys, while we're here, why don't we have a light supper, and a nice bottle of wine: it'll take me an hour before I can carry this sword anyway. Oh, and I have to get changed too, because I can't wear my armour while I'm carrying it."

 

We did play around with the VPP idea and it still lingers on in a few characters for certain useful game functions (like an assassin who just has a ridiculous number of small, lethal gadgets secreted about his person). But in general, I'm not sure it's useful to mess around with too much: if you want equipment pools, it's probably simpler just to use the theatrical/hero convention and allow players to pick up and tote stuff they find for "one scene" and then assume they dump it or sell it, unless they have enough points to add it to their pool.

 

In general, I find it easier to deal with equipment via GM'ing. It doesn't matter if Grok the Inestimable has the Delectable Armour of Protection against Hostile NPCs - he's not going to be wearing it around town or to visit his mistress. When he IS wearing it, well, I probably want him to have it on. I would not have given it to him otherwise.

 

cheers, Mark

[CorpCommander]

Re: Paying Points for Equipment...

 

"Hang on guys' date=' while we're here, why don't we have a light supper, and a nice bottle of wine: it'll take me an hour before I can carry this sword anyway. Oh, and I have to get changed too, because I can't wear my armour while I'm carrying it."[/quote']

 

hehe! Yeah, that's the problem. Of course if we wait for the pool to get bigger that could represent "training" of a very general sort in that the character gets better at handling things found in game. "You are about 10 XP short of being powerful enough to use that - perhaps you should sell it." If the piece of equipment in question is necessary to the story then perhaps it would fit into your cinematic description. Certainly in The Witchfire Trilogy the players get temporary posession of a powerful sword.

 

if you want equipment pools' date=' it's probably simpler just to use the theatrical/hero convention and allow players to pick up and tote stuff they find for "one scene" and then assume they dump it or sell it, unless they have enough points to add it to their pool.[/quote']

 

Hmmm, well players usually put a deathgrip on any good loot they find. If you just take it away they complain. The point is to find an equitable middle ground where the players aren't walking arsenals and the GM isn't a walking arse. Gamers come in 3 stripes, 10% are munchkins, 10% are fantastic roleplayers (maybe more but around there) and the rest are munchkins in denial. Sure they like to roleplay but when it really comes down to it between min/maxing some brill kit vs. role playing (aka going along with the GM) they'll go for the kit hands down. After all, who else at the table is trying to kill the party off by sending monsters at them every play session? Who here hasn't seen players fight over loot at least once in their roleplaying careers?

 

So the choices are: A) an unbounded equipment system, if you can buy it with gold its yours to use GM controlled, cinematic as you suggest or C) systematized and balanced with points. I've been running with A and I know B wouldn't work with my group (YMMV) and C seems to be an interesting alternative.

 

You make good critisims though. I'll have to rethink this.

[Kirby_Nagai]

Re: Paying Points for Equipment...

 

Equipment is the main reason I have yet to run a Fantasy Hero game, I'm just at a loss at how to handle to magic items and weapons. The only thing I am sure about is that I plan to charge points for armour, I've run FAR too many fantasy games to even bother arguing with players about armour anymore. If they want to wear armour contantly, including when they're sleeping, swimming, visiting large cities, or walking through deserts, then they can bloody well pay points for it.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Paying Points for Equipment...

 

Kirby, do you ever tell your players that they won't get any extra experience points if they don't roleplay their characters realistically? What kinds of things have you tried to balance armor use? Do you take away long term endurance for wearing heavy armor? I sorta have another method of handling this if you want to look at my other post.

 

Anyways, I wouldn't charge players points for equipment for mostly the same reasons that Marcdoc doesn't. It seems to create many more problems than solutions. If a new player joins a party and a member of that party gives him an axe, would you make him pay points for it??? It just seems extremely counter-intuitive to me to do that. Perhaps make players pay character points for extra money or magic items, but not equipment.

[CorpCommander]

Re: Paying Points for Equipment...

 

If a new player joins a party and a member of that party gives him an axe' date=' would you make him pay points for it???[/quote']

 

A new player would probably be given an allowance for such things. If the ax were mundane I am sure it would fit in the allowance. If the ax were deeply magical then that would be another problem all together.

 

Its an interesting question. I usually start new players no more than 10-15 points behind the current team averge. It helps prevent the flea in the furnace problem.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Paying Points for Equipment...

 

DC is a really good way to handle this. Everyone gets a 60 pt equipment pool and a 90 pt armory. The armory after the start of the game can grow to whatever you want. The equipment pool has no activepoint cap, just real points. So, you can only carry 60 pts of gear around with you, changing it out only when you are where your armory is (generally a fixed location). As you find loot, add it to the armory, but increases in your equipment pool (1 pt = 5 pts) do not change it.

 

Seems pretty good to me. Read the section in DC on resource points. It covers followers, contacts, and vehicles, so it would work for horses, ships, contacts, squires, and EQ. If someone hands you an axe, big deal, it gets added to your armory.

[CorpCommander]

Re: Paying Points for Equipment...

 

DC is a really good way to handle this...

 

Well, darn it, now I am going to have to wait for my FLGS to get it. :-)

[OsirisDawn]

Re: Paying Points for Equipment...

 

Hello,

 

for my new campaign i am planning to set aside some points for so called Heritage-Equipment. This stuff is build like a follower (AP/5) and will advance as the character advances. Thus the 'Blade of thy Father' will grow in power and i hope the characters will be more attached to it.

 

I will let the players find other magic things, but if the warrior uses the new Frostaxe instead of his 'BotF', the blade wont advance.

 

 

OsirisDawn

 

Edit: typo