Where does this lim/disad go?

[Acroyear]

Concept: OIHID Hero uses a device to "focus" his transformation. He can still enter his HID without the device, but when he does so, he is less powerful. "Less powerful" can be something along the lines of his Endurance Reserve is only half full, or maybe his attacks are a couple DCs less or something. He doesn't need to maintain possession of the focusing device after the transformation to stay in the "more potent" form (so focusing a portion of the powers isn't suitable).

 

I have a personal preference for not paying points for things like changing into a HID, but the real issue is simulating the impact of the method of transformation on the end result. I have a couple ideas here, but would like to pick the collective minds...

 

How would you simulate this sort of thing?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

hmmm...so he has OIHID on everything, but with some things he needs the extra item to take on that form, is that right? Presumably, the OIHID is limiting for all powers (ie he doesn't need the device, but there's some other problem keeping OIHID a concern), or he could just make the extra powers OIHID and take no limitation for the remaining powers.

 

What about scrapping OIHID and giving him a 3 form Multiform? He has his normal form, his "Super" form, and +5 for a second additional form. He gets the Focus limitation on the difference between the cost of his lower and higher power multiform, and on the +5 for a second form.

 

[C'mon - someone out there HAS to have a better idea than this!]

[Acroyear]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

hmmm...so he has OIHID on everything' date=' but with some things he needs the extra item to take on that form, is that right? [/quote']

 

He has OIHID on everything. He can transform into his HID all by himself. But if he transforms with the device, the powers he takes on are more potent. They're the same powers, but the energy filling his body is magnified by the device - thus, better powers.

 

Think of the transformation proccess as a method of taking "cosmic energy" and filling the hero's body with it. He has a natural ability to do this (transforms to HID) and he then has cosmic energy powers. However, he has this cosmic energy vacuum gizmo. If he uses the gizmo to transform, he has more energy to use (but doesn't need the gizmo beyond sucking the energy into himself initially) and better cosmic energy powers.

 

Did that help?

 

One of the ideas I had was working with suscept to his powers as a disad. Suscept to transforming without the gizmo, so the powers take a hit in xd6 from the active points or something, but it then hurts everything equally (so enhanced senses might be wiped out while a real big power would barely feel it) so I wasn't satisfied with it.

[Ghost who Walks]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

Off the top of my head:

 

Physical limitation: *2 END cost on all powers, when does not transform with magic thingee. Still has all his powers, just uses them faster.

 

or

 

Accidental Change: Turns back into normal, if takes body (or anything else), when does not transform with magic thingee. Still has powers, will just now be cautious.

 

or

 

Dependence: Powers/END drain, while he is in poweed mode, and does not have magic thingee.

 

or

 

Psych Limitation: Believes magic Thingee is the source of all powers.

 

or

 

*2 STUN/BODY from all attacks, when transformed without magic thingee.

[Acroyear]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

Here's another example of the idea:

 

Dr. Jack has serum residue in his system that allows him to change into Mr Strong. Mr Strong is +20 STR OIHID.

 

If Dr. Jack drinks more serum to turn into Mr. Strong, Mr. Strong has +30 STR OIHID. He doesn't need to keep the serum with him after the transformation (it's not a focus in that regard), it's just that the method of transforming offers better results. Same power, same hero ID and everything, just better results.

 

I don't think the lim adder of "only to activate" works in this respect in that, say, he's not constantly using and spending End on the extra power (for example, if it was a Force Field, the FF isn't on all the time, it's just a better FF when he turns it on).

[Ghost who Walks]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

I think I see what you are talking about.

 

You could obviously do it as an aid, with the Aid bought OIHID. but that generates a lot of math.

 

Another way is to buy his MP/EC twice...one of them listed as OIHID. Same with any boosted characteristics. That gets kind of messy though, character sheet wise.

 

Thats why I recommended a disadvanage for this sort of thing, much easier to keep track of.

[Pegasus]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

Honestly, I like the multiform method, except for one difference: The base form is the weak form with powers bought as OIHID. Then the multiform is the powerful version bought with the appropriate focus limitation.

 

Otherwise, powers could be bought as follows:

 

44 Tough: Armor (10 PD/10 ED); OIHID (-1/4) plus Armor (10 PD/10 ED); OIHID (-1/4), Conditional Power Only if (focus) used to achieve Hero ID (-1/4)

[Acroyear]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

Thats why I recommended a disadvanage for this sort of thing' date=' much easier to keep track of.[/quote']

 

Yeah, that's why I was looking at using Suscept. But it would wipe out the the smaller powers and do very little to the larger powers.

 

 

Honestly' date=' I like the multiform method, except for one difference: The base form is the weak form with powers bought as OIHID. Then the multiform is the powerful version bought with the appropriate focus limitation.[/quote']

 

However, the more powerful version doesn't actually require the focus to operate, only to appear. It doesn't matter if the focus is taken, thrown away or broken, he's more powerful because he's already turned into it. The "focus" is just a means of gathering the energy into himself. Once the energy is gathered, it is no longer needed.

 

It's almost like a double OIHID.

 

I'll fiddle with some of the ideas here and see if I see anything I like. Maybe we'll get some other ideas to mull over in the meantime.

 

Thanks

[Pegasus]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

However, the more powerful version doesn't actually require the focus to operate, only to appear. It doesn't matter if the focus is taken, thrown away or broken, he's more powerful because he's already turned into it. The "focus" is just a means of gathering the energy into himself. Once the energy is gathered, it is no longer needed.

 

No problem, just change the wording on the limitation to "Focus needed only to activate." From a personal viewpoint, I think the multiform version is 'cleaner.' The powerful version will be straight up, rather than a whole bunch of powers with additional limitations on them. Even though I'm sometimes guilty of over modifying a power myself, I do prefer the most unmodified option available. It's kind of an Occam's Razor thing. Of course, while I consider the multiform clean, I can see how others may dislike multiforms altogether and think they are inherently clunky. It's all to personal taste.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

On reflection, I like the suggested change to the Multiform concept wqhere we have a base characxter with lots of OIHID powers, and a second form that can be assumed only if the character has his Focus. I don't know how cost-effective that will be, however.

 

I don't like the idea of having most powers OIHID at -1/4. and some with a further -1/4 for OIHID which requires a focus (total -1/2). I have visions of this escalating (OIHID requires focus and a full turn; -3/4; OIHID requires focus and a full turn, can't assume in darkness -1; OIHID requires focus and a full turn, can't assume in darkness, requires 2 handed gestures; must incant, not on holy ground, costs END to switch -2).

 

At the same time, I think there should be some extra discount on the additional powers to reflect the fact that they are more limited. This assumes, of course, that the focus itself will be used against the character, in cases where his OIHID could not. For example, the focus is not portable so higher power won't be readily available in all cases.

[Battlestaff]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

Honestly, I like the multiform method, except for one difference: The base form is the weak form with powers bought as OIHID. Then the multiform is the powerful version bought with the appropriate focus limitation.

 

Otherwise, powers could be bought as follows:

 

44 Tough: Armor (10 PD/10 ED); OIHID (-1/4) plus Armor (10 PD/10 ED); OIHID (-1/4), Conditional Power Only if (focus) used to achieve Hero ID (-1/4)

I kinda like this method. It's simple, plus you can modify each power individually. This way there's no blanket reduction in power, so you can have the enhanced sensed unaffected no matter how you transform, but have an EB or Armor that enhances as it does in this example.

[OddHat]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

I prefer going at it from another direction:

 

1) All powers are OIHID.

 

2) The device is an Aid with a Focus, standard effect of 3 points per die, delayed return rate, to all powers at once. Add a 0 point limit that all AID effects are lost when he turns back.

 

So, Mr.Strong can turn on his powers and gain +30 STR, CON, and BOD, +10" Running, +10 PD/ED Armor, OIHID. If he uses his Special Booster Serum (4d6 Aid, Standard effect:12 points, to all powers at once, returns 5 points per day, all points lost if switches out of hero ID, OAF Focus, Fragile) he gains an aditional 12 STR, 6 CON, 6 BOD, 6" Running, and 3pd/3ED Armor.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

I prefer going at it from another direction:

 

1) All powers are OIHID.

 

2) The device is an Aid with a Focus, standard effect of 3 points per die, delayed return rate, to all powers at once. Add a 0 point limit that all AID effects are lost when he turns back.

 

So, Mr.Strong can turn on his powers and gain +30 STR, CON, and BOD, +10" Running, +10 PD/ED Armor, OIHID. If he uses his Special Booster Serum (4d6 Aid, Standard effect:12 points, to all powers at once, returns 5 points per day, all points lost if switches out of hero ID, OAF Focus, Fragile) he gains an aditional 12 STR, 6 CON, 6 BOD, 6" Running, and 3pd/3ED Armor.

 

I like the Aid structure! See, I knew someone would get a better idea!!!

[Yogzilla]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

It's almost like a double OIHID.

Then perhaps buy it that way...

 

+20 STR, OIHID

+10 STR, OIHID, Only when changed using device

 

...though more and more I like the Aid idea suggested by OddHat.

 

-Yogzilla

[Pegasus]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

I like the Aid structure! See' date=' I knew someone would get a better idea!!![/quote']

 

See? This is what I was talking about. Personally, I don't care for Aids, especially on personal stats, but if that method appeals to you, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

 

Honestly, I dislike pretty much all adjustment powers, so my structures usually avoid them. It's a bias, I know.

[Acroyear]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

My only concern with the Aid structure is that you can get an awful lot of bang for those bucks (even with the huge adv to affect everything). Would you guys be put off by something like that? What I worked out was about 200 active, 50 real points adding 15 points to lots of stuff.

[OddHat]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

My only concern with the Aid structure is that you can get an awful lot of bang for those bucks (even with the huge adv to affect everything). Would you guys be put off by something like that? What I worked out was about 200 active' date=' 50 real points adding 15 points to lots of stuff.[/quote']

 

Well, this is the kind of situation best simulated with an Aid. If I were your GM, and I allowed 200 active point powers in the campaign, I'd OK it. I'd also make it clear that it only increased characteristics and powers within the special effect of Serum-Boosted Abilities (or whatever).

[Acroyear]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

I'll fool around with some of the other ideas, too. Right now I'm looking at 50 points giving over 150 points in powers. While it's easy to load up the initial AID power (self only, focus, non-cumulative, etc, etc) it feels like more oomf than what I'm fairly paying for.

 

As for the extreme active points cost... just getting it to affect everything is +2, the time extension isn't cheap, either when you're looking at an hour+.

[PoorWandering 1]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

Concept: OIHID Hero uses a device to "focus" his transformation. He can still enter his HID without the device' date=' but when he does so, he is less powerful. "Less powerful" can be something along the lines of his Endurance Reserve is only half full, or maybe his attacks are a couple DCs less or something. [/quote']

 

 

I may be missing sdomething but what is wrong with doing something like this to all stats & powers?

 

"example beam" 6d6 eb OIHID

"enhansed example beam" 6d6 eb linked to example beam. only useable when transformed using widget.

 

The transforming lim would only be about a 1/4 though.

It's a bit like an electrical super i had some time ago. He could generate a small eb on his own, a larger one using any stick or bar shaped conductive object to help direct the power and the full power blast only when using a specific focus designed for him.

 

Or have i misunderstood the question?

[Acroyear]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

"example beam" 6d6 eb OIHID

"enhansed example beam" 6d6 eb linked to example beam. only useable when transformed using widget.

 

That would be two linked 6d6 EBs rather than one 12d6 EB if you use linked by my interpretation of the rules.

 

Although I'm thinking the method for the second lim on the top end "only usable if transformed via X" while more expensive than the Aid version, might more fairly represent the points used, but it also feels like a stacked OIHID.

[PoorWandering 1]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

That would be two linked 6d6 EBs rather than one 12d6 EB if you use linked by my interpretation of the rules.

 

Although I'm thinking the method for the second lim on the top end "only usable if transformed via X" while more expensive than the Aid version, might more fairly represent the points used, but it also feels like a stacked OIHID.

Oops you are right. Change linked to the -0 lim adds to example beam.

 

It is not quite a stacked OHID. No power or stat will take OHID twice. It might help to think of the second OHID as -1/4 "Extra time,full phase, only to activate, requires wiget"

 

Not much of a cost savings. But then it's not that limitating to the hero.

[OddHat]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

That would be two linked 6d6 EBs rather than one 12d6 EB if you use linked by my interpretation of the rules.

 

Although I'm thinking the method for the second lim on the top end "only usable if transformed via X" while more expensive than the Aid version, might more fairly represent the points used, but it also feels like a stacked OIHID.

 

If it's a cost issue, why not treat the hypodermic for the Aid as an IIF, Fragile? Or even just an IIF if you think you'll rarely be without it.

[PoorWandering 1]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

If it's a cost issue' date=' why not treat the hypodermic for the Aid as an IIF, Fragile? Or even just an IIF if you think you'll rarely be without it.[/quote']

 

Focus can't work for this as he/she does not need the widget to stay at the tip top power level. I suppose you could use continuing charges but that would be ugly.

[OddHat]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

Focus can't work for this as he/she does not need the widget to stay at the tip top power level. I suppose you could use continuing charges but that would be ugly.

 

The Focus is for an Aid with extended effects.

[PoorWandering 1]

Re: Where does this lim/disad go?

 

The Focus is for an Aid with extended effects.

Sorry *removes foot from mouth*

 

So are there limits to how long he/she can stay in tip top status? What is the widget in question btw?