Force Field Limitation

[jackalope]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

SFX cannot be used as an end-run around IPE. The construct of the power must justify the SFX. Not the other way around.

 

This has nothing to do with "making an end-run around IPE".

 

What's going on is that Killer Shrike is claiming that a person actively defending someone from being attack by shielding them with their body is indistinguishable from a person standing there doing nothing.

 

And that's is utter nonsense. That's nonsense on the same level as saying the sky is plaid and grass is fireproof. That's the sort of nonsense that I'm actually offended that anyoen could expect me to take it seriously.

 

That a power is being used is clearly observable to anyone watching.

 

If a character (Brickman) is using this power to defend another character (Normalguy) than anyone consideirng attacking Normalguy will be able to tell simply by looking at Normalguy that he is being defended by Brickman. Both the source (Brickman) and the effect (Normalguy is defended) are clearly visible.

 

So where the hell is the Invisible Effect? What part of this effect is Invisible? NO PART. If the effect was invisible, then when someone attacked Normalguy and he wasn't hurt, they'd have no idea why. They would think Normalguy was really tough and could bounce bullets off his skin. They would have no idea that Brickman was defending him. But unless these theoretical attackers are compeltley senseless, they will be able to clearly tell that it is Brickman who is defending Normalguy. That's source and effect.

 

This is no differnet than a power like Super-Punch (Ultimate Brick, 65), which is a HA bought with the special effect "really accurate punches" or "super strong muscles" or "fists so hard they do mlore damage". How are either of thsoe effects distinguishable from having a lot of strength, or having Armored fists? They aren't! But Super-Punch isn't bought with IPE because it's source and effect are clealry visible! The same is true of Protective Embrace.

 

This is a bullshit argument based on a ridiculous and unsupportable claim.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

Lo and behold!! I was just typing another character into HD and found this little Advantage +1 Can Add/Remove Adders (FREd p 75).

 

Figures Stever would have thought of it. You want to talk about a Rules Lawyer? HA! I slay me. Yeah...ok...it's late.

Thats for Aids IIRC

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

You are honestly going to sit there and say that a person actively defending a person from attacks' date=' warding off blows, and constantly moving to shield another person is [b']indistinguishable[/b] from a person just standing there doing nothing?

 

I mean, regardless of whether you use the adder or UBO, the special effect of using the power is clearly distinguishable from taking no action.

 

You are utterly full of crap.

 

I'm done talking to you. This bullshit is pissing me off.

 

Well, in view of your continued insulting attitude, I dont think Im out of line to respond in kind and say that you are an idiot with reading comprehension issues.

 

 

What Im saying is a straight forward FF must have a visible effect. Saying the visible effect is the person skin bouncing off the bullets is "crap", to use your apparantly limited pallette of words.

 

Ill try to keep this short and simple so that you might, if you concentrate really hard, understand it.

 

Take 2 characters, one with the lendable FF and one without. Both stand over a person, putting their body between an attacker and the target.

 

What, visually, is the difference?

 

You seem to like caps so, Ill help you out:

 

NONE. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. THUS THE SFX ARE INVISIBLE.

[jackalope]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

What Im saying is a straight forward FF must have a visible effect. Saying the visible effect is the person skin bouncing off the bullets is "crap"' date=' to use your apparantly limited pallette of words.[/quote']

 

Holy shit, I don't understand how it is you aren't getting this.

 

The visible effect is "a person actively defending someone from being attacked by shielding them with their body" NOT "the person's skin bouncing off the bullets". That the person's skin bounces bullets is why they can justify buying the power, but the VISIBLE EFFECT of the power is "a person actively defending someone from being attacked by shielding them with their body".

 

Ill try to keep this short and simple so that you might, if you concentrate really hard, understand it.

 

Take 2 characters, one with the lendable FF and one without. Both stand over a person, putting their body between an attacker and the target.

 

What, visually, is the difference?

 

You seem to like caps so, Ill help you out:

 

NONE. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. THUS THE SFX ARE INVISIBLE.

 

Take 2 characters, one with no HA and one with a +4d6 HA with the special effect "rock hard fists". Both punch a person and hit.

 

What, visually, is the difference?

 

None. Now you go tell Steve Long he doesn't know how to write up a Champions power, because he's apparently forgot to buy IPE for Super-Punch (Ultimate Brick, 69), but lists one of the possible SFX for a +6d6 HA as "having rock hard fists".

 

Or what about the the Can't Hurt Me power (Ultimate Brick, 70), that creates a Force Wall around the character, and the special effect is "being really tough". How could someone distinguish, visually, this power from Armor or Damage Resistance? They couldn't! Yet, no IPE on Can't Hurt Me either, because apparently Steve screwed up again.

 

You don't have a leg to stand on. There is absolutely no justification for requiring someone to buy IPE for a power with a clearly visible source and effect. Your argument is CRAP. Now shut the hell up.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

Holy shit, I don't understand how it is you aren't getting this.

 

The visible effect is "a person actively defending someone from being attacked by shielding them with their body" NOT "the person's skin bouncing off the bullets". That the person's skin bounces bullets is why they can justify buying the power, but the VISIBLE EFFECT of the power is "a person actively defending someone from being attacked by shielding them with their body".

 

 

 

Take 2 characters, one with no HA and one with a +4d6 HA with the special effect "rock hard fists". Both punch a person and hit.

 

What, visually, is the difference?

 

None. Now you go tell Steve Long he doesn't know how to write up a Champions power, because he's apparently forgot to buy IPE for Super-Punch (Ultimate Brick, 69), but lists one of the possible SFX for a +6d6 HA as "having rock hard fists".

 

Or what about the the Can't Hurt Me power (Ultimate Brick, 70), that creates a Force Wall around the character, and the special effect is "being really tough". How could someone distinguish, visually, this power from Armor or Damage Resistance? They couldn't! Yet, no IPE on Can't Hurt Me either, because apparently Steve screwed up again.

 

You don't have a leg to stand on. There is absolutely no justification for requiring someone to buy IPE for a power with a clearly visible source and effect. Your argument is CRAP. Now shut the hell up.

Nice language. Glad to see youre so capable of rational discourse.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

Lo and behold!! I was just typing another character into HD and found this little Advantage +1 Can Add/Remove Adders (FREd p 75).

 

That's an advantage for Adjustment Powers. That isn't at all what we've been talking about.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

What Im saying is a straight forward FF must have a visible effect.

 

On the one hand, I agree with you. This is one reason why I do not think Force Field is an appropriate Power to simulate the effect of shielding someone with one's body. On the other hand, there are official character write-ups which use Force Wall, which has very similar issues, in a similar way, and the effect is still considered visible.

 

So, while I would definitely not recommend writing up this particular power that way, I can see how there is a precedent for doing so.

 

Maybe if we all throttled back on the "I'm right, you're wrong", and focused instead on the technical chalenge of writing up a specific Power, this thread would be a happier place? We all know that while there are many wrong ways, there is no single "right" way to write up most Champions abilities, yes? Why not just say, "here's one way", or "here's how I would probably do it", and stay friendly about it?

[Rapier]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

That's an advantage for Adjustment Powers. That isn't at all what we've been talking about.

Well poo. It should be a standard advantage.

[Lightray]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

Well poo. It should be a standard advantage.

Easily enough made into another power:

 

Gimme An Adder!: Succor 2d6 (max. Aided Points: 12), Standard Effect (+0), Variable Effect (One Power At A Time; +1/4), Can Apply Adders (+1) (22 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2), Only For Applying Adders (-1/2)

Cost = 11 pts.

 

Suddenly need that x5 mass Adder on your t-port? viola! Take a half-phase, spend 2 END, and give yourself that Adder. No rolling necessary with that Standard Effect. Double the Active Points to get your 10 pt Affects Carried adder onto your Force Field, and Bob's your uncle.