Force Field Limitation

[Dynamo]

I'm working on a slot for a Brick Tricks multipower:

 

Protective Custody: Force Field 25rPD 25rED; Protects Carried Items/People; Only Protects Carried Items/People.

 

Any suggestions for the value of the Only Protects Carried limitation?

 

The power of course has other details, but they're all covered nicely by FREd.

[Lightray]

I don't think you have a limitation there. I think that's a Usable By Others (not usable simultaneously). Plus the Protects Carried Items adder.

 

Because:

1. People carried get the full benefit of the power. (UBO)

2. The power user does not get the benefit of the power. (not simul.)

3. Stuff carried by people protected get the benefit of the power. (adder)

[Rapier]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

I'm working on a slot for a Brick Tricks multipower:

 

Protective Custody: Force Field 25rPD 25rED; Protects Carried Items/People; Only Protects Carried Items/People.

 

Any suggestions for the value of the Only Protects Carried limitation?

 

The power of course has other details, but they're all covered nicely by FREd.

I'm thinking -1. That is a pretty large limitation.

[jackalope]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

Protective Custody: Force Field (20 PD/20 ED), Usable By Other (+1/4); Others Only (-1/2) Cost: 33 (50 Active Points)

 

I wouldn't bother with the "Protects Carried Items" adder, since the UBO has more or less the same effect.

 

"Others Only (-1/2)" is generally only used with Adjustment powers like Healing and Succor, but since this power is essentially "adjusting" the defenses of the recipient, it seems fair to apply it here.

 

You could also add the "Feedback (-1)" limitation (normally used with Force Walls) like so:

 

Protective Custody: Force Field (20 PD/20 ED), Usable By Other (+1/4); Feedback (-1), Others Only (-1/2) Cost: 20 (50 Active Points)

 

I assume the character is using their body to shield the recipient, so it makes sense that any damage that gets through the Force Field hurts them as well.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

I'd agree with the UBO write-up. Looks good to me. I'd also skip the adder and give the guy a break.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

UBO isnt necessary for this -- if the FF only applies while the character is actively holding someone/thing.

 

The original FF Protects Carried with a Lim works fine. I'd call it a full on -2 because it is so severely limited, unless the character were based on some kind of trick build where that feature played into their other Powers and thus wasnt as limiting in context.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

hmmm...the adder plus a limitation (say -1 for conservatism) means I get +25/+25 for 60 AP and 30 real points (the adder's worth 10, right?).

 

If I buy the same Field UBO, that's 62 AP, and take the limitation "must maintain contact with user, and give that the same -1, it costs 31 points.

 

For one point, does it matter much which way it's done?

[Dynamo]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

Thanks for the thoughts.

 

Yes indeed, the brick is defending his charge with his body, so he takes damage and the defenses are identical to his own defenses. It also costs End due to the necessary continual vigilance. The power will at first require an action every phase to maintain and a concentration DCV penalty, but these will disappear with XP.

 

I'll probably stick with the original power construct with a -1 limitation value. It's going into a multipower as a fixed slot, so the limitation value will not affect the final cost much. I just wanted a well-research construct.

 

I got the idea for this power during an in-game rescue scene. Megalith had the scientist cradled closely to his oversized (10pt Growth) chest, and I elaborately described the measures Megalith was taking to protect him while slamming backwards through walls to get away from the baddies while the others provided suppressive fire-support. The GM still ruled him nearly dead from the impacts. %$#&$%#. It was a good plan, dramatically appropriate and tactically sound, but he just didn't want this guy conscious and available to provide scientific consultation.

[jackalope]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

The original FF Protects Carried with a Lim works fine. I'd call it a full on -2 because it is so severely limited' date=' unless the character were based on some kind of trick build where that feature played into their other Powers and thus wasnt as limiting in context.[/quote']

 

No way is that a -2 limitation. Having a power which can be permanently removed or which you have no control over is worth -2, and there is already an established precedent from beneficial powers which can only use on others (the Other Only lim for Adjustment powers, which is -1/2). Therefore it's a -1/2 at best.

 

The Protects Carried adder is abusive and unecessary. The power is usable by others, and should be bought as such.

[jackalope]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

hmmm...the adder plus a limitation (say -1 for conservatism) means I get +25/+25 for 60 AP and 30 real points (the adder's worth 10, right?).

 

If I buy the same Field UBO, that's 62 AP, and take the limitation "must maintain contact with user, and give that the same -1, it costs 31 points.

 

For one point, does it matter much which way it's done?

 

Except that a -1 limitation is still twice what the limitation should be. There's already an established precedent for Others Only being a -1/2 limitation, and the "must maintain contact" is presumed in the fact that it's not ranged.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

Others Only is for Adjustment Powers.

 

The ability to use an Aid on many other people, but not yourself is barely limited, thus -1/2.

 

Force Fields purpose is to provide Defense for the character purchasing it.

 

A FF that only protects something you hold is extremely limited. Its basic purpose (to provide protection) is completely turned off. It has in effect become a useless power that costs END and is visible and non-persistent.

 

In this particular case, since the effect isnt an actual "FF", but the character "using his body as a shield", you also need to make it IPE (SFX Only) for +1/2 to properly model the effect.

 

So now youve got a Power whose entire basic effect is nullified, and the only use gained from it is via an Adder, Protects Carried Items, which requires the character to tote around a person or object (presumably using at least one hand, or expend some strength in the process) to have any effect at all.

 

Plus, its only actual use is to model an effect mechanically that could be acheived for free via cover, interposing, or just common sense by a flexible GM.

 

Thus "Power Loses Almost All Of Its Effectiveness" = -2

[jackalope]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

Force Fields purpose is to provide Defense for the character purchasing it.

 

A FF that only protects something you hold is extremely limited. Its basic purpose (to provide protection) is completely turned off. It has in effect become a useless power that costs END and is visible and non-persistent.

 

I disagree completely. I think being able to shield other people from damage with your body is an extremely useful ability.

 

Also, look at this:

 

5 Force Field (5 PD/5 ED), Usable By Other (+1/4) (12 Active Points); Feedback (-1), Others Only (-1/2)

7 Force Field (5 PD/5 ED) (Protect Carried Items) (20 Active Points); Only Protects Carried Items (-2)

 

10 Force Field (10 PD/10 ED), Usable By Other (+1/4) (25 Active Points); Feedback (-1), Others Only (-1/2)

10 Force Field (10 PD/10 ED) (Protect Carried Items) (30 Active Points); Only Protects Carried Items (-2)

 

15 Force Field (15 PD/15 ED), Usable By Other (+1/4) (37 Active Points); Feedback (-1), Others Only (-1/2)

13 Force Field (15 PD/15 ED) (Protect Carried Items) (40 Active Points); Only Protects Carried Items (-2)

 

20 Force Field (20 PD/20 ED), Usable By Other (+1/4) (50 Active Points); Feedback (-1), Others Only (-1/2)

17 Force Field (20 PD/20 ED) (Protect Carried Items) (50 Active Points); Only Protects Carried Items (-2)

 

100 Force Field (100 PD/100 ED), Usable By Other (+1/4) (250 Active Points); Feedback (-1), Others Only (-1/2)

70 Force Field (100 PD/100 ED) (Protect Carried Items) (210 Active Points); Only Protects Carried Items (-2)

 

That is seriously broken. My build remains consistent at every power level, the alternate build gets cheaper and cheaper the more you get. That's abusive, it shouldn't do that.

 

In this particular case, since the effect isnt an actual "FF", but the character "using his body as a shield", you also need to make it IPE (SFX Only) for +1/2 to properly model the effect.

 

The special effect of the power is defined as "character uses his own body to defend another person". I think it would be clearly obvious to anyone seeing the character using the power that he was defending another person with his body, therefore the special effect is not invisible.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

I disagree completely. I think being able to shield other people from damage with your body is an extremely useful ability.

 

SNIP

 

That is seriously broken. My build remains consistent at every power level, the alternate build gets cheaper and cheaper the more you get. That's abusive, it shouldn't do that.

How is it abusive? If someone wants to spend that many points on such a generally limited ability, its not going to break the game. If anything such a character is going to be a bit underpowered for having sunk that many points into such a corner-case, limited purpose ability.

 

Further, there are other ways to provide protection with ones body in the HERO System that dont require any points be spent on them. A character could stand in front of another character (or otherwise cover them with their body) and provide concealment to them. Any attack on the protected character that misses by the difference of the concealment bonus strikes the covering character instead.

 

You can also "Dive For Cover" to intercept an attack, taking the hit automatically.

 

Fantasy HERO also give an option called "Interposing", which can be used in this fashion to protect another.

 

The special effect of the power is defined as "character uses his own body to defend another person". I think it would be clearly obvious to anyone seeing the character using the power that he was defending another person with his body, therefore the special effect is not invisible.

No, it doesnt. Page 69 SFX Visibility. FF is a visible effect.

 

Declaring the "visibility" of it to be "the impacts bounce off my body" is not sufficiently visible -- no observer of the character could tell that some kind of field or effect were in use, it just looks like the character was unaffected by the attacks. Thats the general effect of most uses of Armor and Damage Resistance, both of which are not visible by default.

 

The SFX of the "shield other" ability under discussion here are not visible -- its visibility is the same as powers with no visibility -- and thus it needs IPE (SFX Only), IMO.

[jackalope]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

How is it abusive?

 

Well, as my example clearly shows, it gets cheaper and cheaper the more and more power you get. Can you name any other power that gets cheaper the more of you get?

 

No, it doesnt.

 

What doesn't what?

 

Page 69 SFX Visibility. FF is a visible effect.

 

And "shielding someone with your body" is a visible effect.

 

Declaring the "visibility" of it to be "the impacts bounce off my body" is not sufficiently visible -- no observer of the character could tell that some kind of field or effect were in use, it just looks like the character was unaffected by the attacks. Thats the general effect of most uses of Armor and Damage Resistance, both of which are not visible by default.

 

Nonsense.

 

Let's assume there are three characters: Brickman, Normalguy, and Foxbat. Brickman has the power in question, and is using it to defend Normalguy. Foxbat shoots Normalguy, and the attack does no damage. Foxbat can clearly see why Normalguy took no damage - Brickman was shielding him with his body! Therefore the effect of the power is visible.

[jackalope]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

Further' date=' there are other ways to provide protection with ones body in the HERO System that dont require any points be spent on them. A character could stand in front of another character (or otherwise cover them with their body) and provide concealment to them. Any attack on the protected character that misses by the difference of the concealment bonus strikes the covering character instead.[/quote']

 

Yes, but that wouldn't protect them from, for example, AoE attacks, whereas this power would.

 

Also, this power always works, it's a guaranteed defense. Simply using your body to provide concealment is an all-or-nothing, if the shot doesn't hit you, the target gets no defense at all. This power ensures that you will always absorb some of the damage aimed at the target being defended.

 

Which makes it far more useful.

[Gary]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

Well, as my example clearly shows, it gets cheaper and cheaper the more and more power you get. Can you name any other power that gets cheaper the more of you get?

 

Actually, that's not quite true. It's the cost of the adder throwing off the cost chart. The FF part of the power is directly proportionate to the level of the power, it's only the adder that's being "diluted" when more FF is purchased.

 

As an example:

 

1" Flight X16 NCM = 2+20=22 pts

5" Flight X16 NCM = 10+20=30 pts

10" Flight X16 NCM = 20+20=40 pts

100" Flight X16 NCM = 200+20=220 pts

 

The adder is a "fixed" cost and represents a smaller percentage of the total power as the power gets larger.

[jackalope]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

Actually' date=' that's not quite true. It's the cost of the adder throwing off the cost chart. The FF part of the power is directly proportionate to the level of the power, it's only the adder that's being "diluted" when more FF is purchased.[/quote']

 

Yes, which is why the adder shouldn't be used in this way (it really shouldn't exist at all, I have no idea why it was added to the game).

 

UBO should be used rather than the adder, because it remains consistent at every power level. One could even write up the power like so:

 

Protective Embrace

Standard Power/Defense Power

Constant

Special (Others Only)

 

The character can use his body to defend a single target from all attacks. Any damage that exceeds the DEF of the Protective Embrace is taken by both the defending character and the character defended.

• Protective Embrace: 1 Character Point for every 2 points of Resistant Defense.

 

You can't do that with the alternate build.

[Gary]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

Yes, which is why the adder shouldn't be used in this way (it really shouldn't exist at all, I have no idea why it was added to the game).

 

UBO should be used rather than the adder, because it remains consistent at every power level. One could even write up the power like so:

 

 

I disagree with this reasoning. By this reasoning, any adder would be invalid, since any power with the adder will not be consistent at every power level.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

Well' date=' as my example clearly shows, it gets cheaper and cheaper the more and more power you get.[/Quote']

 

That is not what you showed.

 

But I don't think "shielding someone with your body" is a valid special efect for Force Field, anyway. I would recommend that the character's Armor or PD be bought Usable By Others Simultaneously, perhaps with a Limitation that the character automatically gets hit by any attack that hits the protected person (-1 seems appropriate for that, but I'd be willing to adjust that).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

Well, as my example clearly shows, it gets cheaper and cheaper the more and more power you get. Can you name any other power that gets cheaper the more of you get?

 

Power no, Power construct yes.

 

The FF portion remains constant.

 

What doesn't what?

FF visibility defined as "I use my body as a shield" does not satisfy visiblity requirements.

 

 

And "shielding someone with your body" is a visible effect.

No, its a description of an action. Thats the SOURCE portion of the visibility. It is obvious that your character is the source of the effect, but the actual outcome of the effect is not visible; it looks exactly the same as if your character had Dmg Resistance or Armor and interposed their body between the attacker and the target via a normal means. Thus the actual SFX portion of the attack is not visible.

 

IPE can be bought seperately for Source and SFX. This is a case for IPE (SFX).

 

Nonsense.

Think carefully about if you want to start getting insulting with comments like that or would rather discuss this in a mature aspersion-free manner.

 

Let's assume there are three characters: Brickman, Normalguy, and Foxbat. Brickman has the power in question, and is using it to defend Normalguy. Foxbat shoots Normalguy, and the attack does no damage. Foxbat can clearly see why Normalguy took no damage - Brickman was shielding him with his body! Therefore the effect of the power is visible.

Incorrect. Foxbat can see that Brickman is the source, but to his senses the effect was indistinguishable from him shooting Brickman directly and Brickman's Armor/Damage Resistance rebuffing the attack.

 

In fact that's the intended purpose of the power -- to give the illusion SFX-wise that the character is interposing their damage-resistant body between the target and the attacker, not that the character is erecting some sort of protective aura around the target (which is the actual mechanical effect). Thus the SFX are not visible. The Source continues to be visible, but not the SFX.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

Yes' date=' but that wouldn't protect them from, for example, AoE attacks, whereas this power would. [/quote']

Actually, a character could D4C to knock another character out of the area of an AoE if a GM allowed them to do so.

Also, this power always works, it's a guaranteed defense. Simply using your body to provide concealment is an all-or-nothing, if the shot doesn't hit you, the target gets no defense at all. This power ensures that you will always absorb some of the damage aimed at the target being defended.

 

Which makes it far more useful.

 

This power also requires that the granting character carry the protected individual and spend END to fuel the FF. It also requires the character to spend actual character points on it, as opposed to the other methods which are free.

 

Thus its extended utility is countered by it's increased cost. Arguing that it is more useful is unnecessary and has no direct bearing -- it's a Power that the character is paying for; it should be more useful.

[jackalope]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

I disagree with this reasoning. By this reasoning' date=' [b']any[/b] adder would be invalid, since any power with the adder will not be consistent at every power level.

 

To be honest, I don't like the exsistence of adders at all, I think they should be Advantages. I mean "Increased NCM (+1/4)" is that so hard?

 

Here's my issue: I could use the same structure I used for Protective Embrace with other defense powers:

 

5 Knockback Resistance -5", Usable By Other (+1/4); Feedback (-1), Others Only (-1/2)

5 Missile Deflection (Arrows, Slings, Etc.), Usable By Other (+1/4); Feedback (-1), Others Only (-1/2)

5 Mental Defense (10 points total), Usable By Other (+1/4); Feedback (-1), Others Only (-1/2)

 

10 Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), Usable By Other (+1/4); Feedback (-1), Others Only (-1/2)

10 Knockback Resistance -10", Usable By Other (+1/4); Feedback (-1), Others Only (-1/2)

10 Mental Defense (20 points total), Usable By Other (+1/4); Feedback (-1), Others Only (-1/2)

 

In the KBR example, the Feedback would mean that any knockback the target characetr took would also be taken by the defender. With the Missle Deflect, and attack that hit the target would also hit the defender. The Mental Defense could be bought as a FF and then bought with the adder, but if bought as actual MD, it could not.

 

Neither of these powers has a "Protects Carried Items" adder that can be abused in the way the FF adder is being abused. You would be forced to pay the scalar UBO cost on them. But the adder on the FF is effectively giving the player a more expensive version of UBO at low power levels, and a cheaper version of UBO at higher power levels.

 

That just doesn't seem right to me. One shouldn't be able to get an advantage for cheap like that, it's abusing the rules.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

So basically what youre saying is "I dont like Protects Carried Adder so Im going to crap on any Power Construct that uses it"?

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

To be honest' date=' I don't like the exsistence of adders at all, I think they should be Advantages. I mean "Increased NCM (+1/4)" is that so hard?[/quote']

 

The problem is that the underlying system is not granular enough to make trivial advantages cost-effective. Ergo, Adders. At one time I was working on a Champions-ish system that replaced the "*(1 + (advantage in increments of 1/4))" mechanic with a straight "+(advantage in increments of 10%)", but I would not expect Champions to ever go that way. So you get "Adders" instead, because no one would pay +1/4 to have things that most adders provide.

 

But I'll tell you what bugs me: there's no equivalent for "variable advantage" or "variable limitation" for Adders, which means an otherwise simple character who has a very narrowly defined set of powers -- but flexible, within that narrow scope -- winds up having to buy a monstrous Multipower or even Power Pool. Teleport, for example, has a bucketfull of Adders. If you want a character whose main schtick is Teleport, and want them to be able to use it in a variety of ways, you either spend a bazillion points to have a few levels of every Adder, or you buy a Power Pool, or you buy a Multipower with a ridiculous number of slots. That bugs me. It should be simpler than that.

[Gary]

Re: Force Field Limitation

 

To be honest' date=' I don't like the exsistence of adders at all, I think they should be Advantages. I mean "Increased NCM (+1/4)" is that so hard?[/quote']

 

1" flight X256 NCM (+2) Instant Acceleration/Deceleration (+1) 0 End (+1/2). 9 pts. Vs 1" Flight X256 NCM (42 base points) Instant Acceleration/Deceleration (+1) 0 End (+1/2) for 105 pts. The adder makes it a lot harder to abuse at lower power levels than the advantage.

 

 

Here's my issue: I could use the same structure I used for Protective Embrace with other defense powers:

 

5 Knockback Resistance -5", Usable By Other (+1/4); Feedback (-1), Others Only (-1/2)

5 Missile Deflection (Arrows, Slings, Etc.), Usable By Other (+1/4); Feedback (-1), Others Only (-1/2)

5 Mental Defense (10 points total), Usable By Other (+1/4); Feedback (-1), Others Only (-1/2)

 

10 Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), Usable By Other (+1/4); Feedback (-1), Others Only (-1/2)

10 Knockback Resistance -10", Usable By Other (+1/4); Feedback (-1), Others Only (-1/2)

10 Mental Defense (20 points total), Usable By Other (+1/4); Feedback (-1), Others Only (-1/2)

 

In the KBR example, the Feedback would mean that any knockback the target characetr took would also be taken by the defender. With the Missle Deflect, and attack that hit the target would also hit the defender. The Mental Defense could be bought as a FF and then bought with the adder, but if bought as actual MD, it could not.

 

Neither of these powers has a "Protects Carried Items" adder that can be abused in the way the FF adder is being abused. You would be forced to pay the scalar UBO cost on them. But the adder on the FF is effectively giving the player a more expensive version of UBO at low power levels, and a cheaper version of UBO at higher power levels.

 

That just doesn't seem right to me. One shouldn't be able to get an advantage for cheap like that, it's abusing the rules.

 

You can do it that way as well. However, you would have to have extremely high power levels before the adder becomes significantly better. It just doesn't seem to be that big a deal, in exchange for the convenience and simplicity of the adder vs clunky advantages.