Summon vs. Duplication, Invisible Power Effects for >1 action?

[Captain Pants]

After watching Equilibrium(for those that haven't seen the movie, I recommend it highly), I took a whack at creating a Grammaton Cleric for Champions. Originally, for his "gun kata," I created a single killing attack, autofire, with a radius area effect.

 

A few problems with that approach. Since this occurred in a single phase, he would just stand there and abruptly everyone within 8" of him would take damage (assuming they got hit). Also, his range was 8", far shorter than guns like his would normally be. And finally, the AE+AF approach was a killer on active points, which kept the attacks fairly low in damage.

 

Something I had experimented in the past with was Duplication, Invisible Special Effects (Total), and I wanted to bounce it off those of you here to see how it jived with your understanding of Champions.

 

This is what I tried:

 

183 Summon (1 301-Point Creatures) ; Range (0"); Amicable (Slavishly Loyal): +1; Invisible Power Effects (All Senses): +1; Feedback (Beneficial Effects); Feedback (BODY Damage); Feedback (STUN Damage)

 

2: Mind Link ; Minds Involved (One Specific Mind): +5; Number of Minds (1): +0; Distance (Single Planet): +0; Dimension (Current): +0; Feedback [sTUN and BODY]: -2

 

The summoned character has some other individual things on it, such as disads like "Can't speak." That I don't need help with, at least not yet.

 

So, during his "gun kata," he would summon something that would act on its own accord, as its own entity, but over which he had total control, in this case one of his arms. Since the summoned character has all the same attacks and SPD, he would be able to effectively act twice in a single phase, or at least look like he was doing so.

 

So my questions:

 

1. Is this legal?

2. Should I/Can I use Duplication instead? (ghastly more expensive!!)

3. Can the summoned character have a 0 INT, and still act on instructions via Mind Link?

4. Should the arm (in a perfect world) be an automaton, allowing feedback to damage the main character without "stunning" his arm if he gets hit?

5. Should I make the arm desolid vs. mental attacks? How would I "pass that buck"?

6. Is there a better way to do this?

 

Any insights here would be appreciated, whether they're answers to my questions or just thoughts about it in general.

 

- Captain Pants

[Steve Long]

Re: Summon vs. Duplication, Invisible Power Effects for >1 action?

 

This looks like a "how to" question addressed to the readership in general, not a rules question directed to me specifically. So, I've moved it to Discussion to allow anyone who's interested to express an opinion.

[Rapier]

Re: Summon vs. Duplication, Invisible Power Effects for >1 action?

 

I would never allow this construct. I wouldn't allow you to use duplication to give you some kind of ueber arm. It is also MUCH more trouble that it is worth.

 

The power as you initially constructed it is more correct, but still needs a lil tweakin.

 

Construct A

Purchase his gun: 2d6 RKA

Purchases a Naked Advantage for the RKA: AoE Radius, Selective, Reduced Radius (8"), Full Phase, Costs END, x3 END, RSR Gun Kata

 

If the gun is built with charges, add an additional Charge Limitation (it's in one of the DHs) Increased Charges (1 charge for each target in radius - probably another -1/2 or so).

 

AF and AoE, in this concept, are reproducing the same effect. You would be doubleing up on the effect. That is why the cost is so outlandish. Purchase it as an AoE as above, or an AF as below:

 

Construct B

Purchase his gun: 2d6 RKA

Purchase a Naked Advantage for the RKA: AutoFire 20, Full Phase, Costs END, x3 END, RSR Gun Kata

Purchase 20 PSLs to offset the penalties for the AF: Costs END, x3 END

 

In these constructs, its important to note, that even if the RKA has charges, the AoE, AF and/or PSLs should all cost END. This is to reflect the amount of effort that should go into the Gun Kata (it also makes things a bit cheaper).

 

The costs are going to be roughly the same for either construct. I'd be sorely tempted to go with Construct B, since its a lot easier. One thing to keep in mind is the number of charges. If the gun only hold 12 shots, it's going to really hamper your Gun Kata. Don't forget to plan around that eventuality.

[SAW]

Re: Summon vs. Duplication, Invisible Power Effects for >1 action?

 

I have no idea what movie you're talking about, but the effect you're looking for sounds like it could be made by buying RKA AF x20 and then purchasing all of the various Autofire Skills. Add PSLs and CSLs to taste and you're good to go.

 

SAW (with a little help from T-Man)

[Captain Pants]

Re: Summon vs. Duplication, Invisible Power Effects for >1 action?

 

I would never allow this construct. I wouldn't allow you to use duplication to give you some kind of ueber arm. It is also MUCH more trouble that it is worth.

 

AF and AoE, in this concept, are reproducing the same effect. You would be doubleing up on the effect. That is why the cost is so outlandish. Purchase it as an AoE as above, or an AF as below:

 

While you're right about doubling up the effects, what this approach doesn't do is create the effect I want, which is firing either a single shot or a burst (can do this with different slots in a MP, obviously) out of each gun, at the same time, at differing targets. The approach you're suggesting sends many bullets out all in a single instance, kind of like a vomitous pincushion, and it severely limits range (in the case of AE).

 

In the movie (starring Christian Bale, btw... who is going to play Batman in Batman Begins, coming in 2005), he would stroll into a crowd of targets, fire on either side of himself with his arms spread, and fire -- two targets down. A second or two passed as he then crossed his arms and fired at two other targets on either side of himself. Then he uncrossed, fired, and recrossed repeatedly until all targets were dead. The key thing here is that he could fire both guns at once, at separate targets, on successive rounds.

 

Using autofire or AE doesn't take any time... it just does it all at once, so there would be no time between shots for targets to take action, which I think is an important distinction.

 

I'm curious... why not allow this construct, considering it costs 183 points (actually I redid the math and it costs 210)? Would you allow it as Duplication (winds up costing 708)? What problems, other than complexity, do you see doing it this way?

 

- Pants

[Frenchman]

Re: Summon vs. Duplication, Invisible Power Effects for >1 action?

 

This just sounds like the SFx of a sweep to me. Buy him two-weapon fighting (ranged) and be done with it. If he is firing off AF bursts from each weapon, you will need the rapid autofire skill as well.

[Rapier]

Re: Summon vs. Duplication, Invisible Power Effects for >1 action?

 

While you're right about doubling up the effects' date=' what this approach doesn't do is create the effect I want, which is firing either a single shot or a burst (can do this with different slots in a MP, obviously) out of each gun, at the same time, at differing targets. The approach you're suggesting sends many bullets out all in a single instance, kind of like a vomitous pincushion, and it severely limits range (in the case of AE).[/quote']

Yes. That appeared, to me, to be the effect you were looking for.

 

I the movie (starring Christian Bale, btw... who is going to play Batman in Batman Begins, coming in 2005), he would stroll into a crowd of targets, fire on either side of himself with his arms spread, and fire -- two targets down. A second or two passed as he then crossed his arms and fired at two other targets on either side of himself. Then he uncrossed, fired, and recrossed repeatedly until all targets were dead. The key thing here is that he could fire both guns at once, at separate targets, on successive rounds.

 

Using autofire or AE doesn't take any time... it just does it all at once, so there would be no time between shots for targets to take action, which I think is an important distinction.

AH! There's the rub. 2 different animals entirely. If actions are taking every few seconds, it's just a standard AF 3 (or 5) taken on successive phases. That is the standard AF. No thought required. Pick up a couple PSLs and you are good to go. The scene I was thinking of was more in the "citadel" thingy. I was thinking of him taking out 12 or 15 opponents in a single phase.

 

I'm curious... why not allow this construct, considering it costs 183 points (actually I redid the math and it costs 210)? Would you allow it as Duplication (winds up costing 708)? What problems, other than complexity, do you see doing it this way?

One is the kludge of the construct. It's heavy handed and very non-intuitive. You are going to buy duplication and then basically buy off ALL the stats except DEX and SPD. That right there, to me, is the clue that you are using the wrong power. Instead of trying to force your way into some kind of duplicate, you should be trying to find a more natural construct that is easier (eg AF or AoE).

 

The power you are trying to build is not any different from a hundred other similar effects I have seen over the years. While Hero is most definately capable of building many powers in many different ways, I would hate for you to throw away points in an expensive, unneccesary manner and use a construct that is counter-intuitive and shoe-horned into its role.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Summon vs. Duplication, Invisible Power Effects for >1 action?

 

I'll second (third? fifth?) that this sounds like 2 weapon fighting or, alternatively, Naked Autofire, 2 shots.

 

Why not duplication? Because it's kludgy and lacks logic. There are not two people really there. They cannot separate. With STUN/BOD feedback, using this skill means you take double damage from all AoE attacks that hit you (as does your duplicate).

 

Add feedback with Mind Link as well, and I'd consider quadruple it (ie you are using Feedback to reduce two costs - it should have two effects), but that's minor.

 

If I did allow Duplication, IPE only prevents people from seing where the Duplicate comes from. He'll need Invisible vs All Sense Groups to avoid being seen. I'd handwave his occupation of your hex, however.