"Indirect" attacks that follow a parabolic trajectory: what about "Hardened"?

[tracer]

The Chartreuse Arrow nocks one of his infamous "Knockout Arrows" (the kind with the boxing glove on the tip) and draws back his bow, aiming straight for the Invisible Force Wall Girl 10" away. The Invisible Force Wall Girl, however, is no slouch, and throws an invisible Force Wall between herself and the Chartreuse Arrow.

 

Not a dome-shaped Force Wall that protects her from above, mind you, just a flat, straight Force Wall 1" high that covers 3 hexes or so.

 

But the Chartreuse Arrow knows of the Invisible Force Wall Girl's powers, and outsmarts her. Instead of aiming straight at her, he lessens the pull on his bow -- so that the arrow will fly more slowly -- and aims his bow so that his Knockout Arrow will arch over her 1"-high Force Wall and then come back down and hit her.

 

Now, as we all know from page 260 of the 5th Edition Revised HERO system rules, the Chartreuse Arrow's Knockout Arrows would have to be bought as a kind of Indirect with a +1/2 Power Advantage. It says right there on the lower-right-hand side of the page:

 

"If the Indirect power always originates with the character, but can be aimed/fired in any direction, Indirect is a +1/2 Advantage. Examples of this include some types of boomerangs and arrows that a character can cause to arc around and hit the target from various angles."

 

 

Okay, fine so far.

 

But.

 

What if the Invisible Force Wall Girl had bought her Force Wall as Hardened? According to the description of Indirect earlier on that same page, barriers purchased with Hardened affect an Indirect attack normally. This means that, despite the fact that the Chartreuse Arrow's Knockout Arrow is sailing over the top of the Invisible Force Wall Girl's Hardened Force Wall, her Force Wall will still stop the arrow because it lies directly in between the Chartreuse Arrow and his target!

 

This doesn't seem to be very sensible, but that's the way the game mechanics appear to be set up. Am I missing something here?

[Lightray]

Go, read the section on Special Effects, where it notes that sometimes powers are more or less effective -- despite their rules construction -- because of Special Effects.

 

If IFWG doesn't have the right Special Effect, she might be seeing green arrows.

 

Of course, you should also check CA's character sheet -- did he purchase the measly +1/4 Indirect advantage (originate from the character, always same direction)? Maybe that's not a big enough advantage to overcome IFWG's hardened invisible force wall. Maybe his Indirect needs to be "any direction" for you to rule that his Special Effects overcome IFWG's Special Effects.

 

In cases like this, it's pretty much the GM's call.

[Mentor]

Re: "Indirect" attacks that follow a parabolic trajectory: what about "Hardened"?

 

In our campaign, SFX trumps strictly descriptive rule mechanics.

 

Arrow arching over wall is enough to convince me, were I the GM, that the boxing glove, assuming a successful roll to hit, lands right on her pretty kisser.

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If IFWG doesn't have the right Special Effect' date=' she might be seeing green arrows.[/quote']

Chartreuse arrows, please! DC comics still holds the copyright on the color green.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: "Indirect" attacks that follow a parabolic trajectory: what about "Hardened"?

 

I agree with Mentor that in this case special effect trumps advantages+limitations in most cases. However, unless the arrow was also IPE or IFWgirl has already acted this phase she should have the opportunity to abort to a 0 phase action of repositioning her 1" high Force Wall between herself and the arrows balistic flight path.

 

IMO, The Chartreuse Arrow has another option that makes more sense and does not require the Indirect advantage, instead it just needs 1 combat level. Bounce the Attack to hit IFWgirl from behind! This actually fits the scene better in that IFWgirl should reasonably assume that the shot was fired wild and has no good reason (unless she has seen manuever before) to try and reposition her FW then.

 

HM

[Rapier]

Re: "Indirect" attacks that follow a parabolic trajectory: what about "Hardened"?

 

What if the Invisible Force Wall Girl had bought her Force Wall as Hardened? According to the description of Indirect earlier on that same page' date=' barriers purchased with [i']Hardened[/i] affect an Indirect attack normally. This means that, despite the fact that the Chartreuse Arrow's Knockout Arrow is sailing over the top of the Invisible Force Wall Girl's Hardened Force Wall, her Force Wall will still stop the arrow because it lies directly in between the Chartreuse Arrow and his target!

 

This doesn't seem to be very sensible, but that's the way the game mechanics appear to be set up. Am I missing something here?

[sFX Police]

Whoa there pardner, do you know how fast you were going?

[/sFX Police]

 

Yep, you guessed it. SFX. I've always looked a little askance at the Hardened vs Indirect clause. But as with any rule, dramatic sense, common sense, GM license, etc, et al will trump it. In this case, CA is popping an arrow over IFWG's FW. Doesn't matter if she makes it green, glowing, opaque, hardened, difficult to dispel or anything else...since the arrow isn't going to hit it.

[tracer]

Re: "Indirect" attacks that follow a parabolic trajectory: what about "Hardened"?

 

IMO' date=' The Chartreuse Arrow has another option that makes more sense and [u']does not require the Indirect advantage[/u], instead it just needs 1 combat level. Bounce the Attack to hit IFWgirl from behind! This actually fits the scene better in that IFWgirl should reasonably assume that the shot was fired wild and has no good reason (unless she has seen manuever before) to try and reposition her FW then.

Hmmm ... of course, the Bounce maneuver requires a solid surface to bounce the attack off of. (Doesn't it?) If there weren't, say, any buildings to either side, and the two of them weren't indoors, then the Chartreuse Arrow wouldn't have anything to Bounce his Knockout Arrows off of.

 

It kinda sounds like the +1/2 Indirect Advantage, where the attack can fly in any direction, is like making the attack capable of being Bounced an unlimited number of times without requiring the use of any Combat Skill Levels, and allowing these "Bounces" to be off of empty space.

 

In that case, shouldn't the Range Modifier be like it is for a Bounced attack, i.e. counting every hex along the flight path of the attack as part of the Range?

[Rapier]

Re: "Indirect" attacks that follow a parabolic trajectory: what about "Hardened"?

 

Hmmm ... of course, the Bounce maneuver requires a solid surface to bounce the attack off of. (Doesn't it?) If there weren't, say, any buildings to either side, and the two of them weren't indoors, then the Chartreuse Arrow wouldn't have anything to Bounce his Knockout Arrows off of.

Depends on how cinematic you want to get. I've let a character bounce a bullet off of a spitoon, a coffe can, a light, a baby buggy (talk about takin risks), Mechanon's ass (looooong story) just to name a few.

 

If they were battling in the middle of a flat featureless plain (say, Nebraska...heh. I drove through Nebraska once ) bouncing could be a problem. But in the vast majority of cases, there is going to be SOMETHING you can bounce an attack off of.

 

It kinda sounds like the +1/2 Indirect Advantage, where the attack can fly in any direction, is like making the attack capable of being Bounced an unlimited number of times without requiring the use of any Combat Skill Levels, and allowing these "Bounces" to be off of empty space.

 

In that case, shouldn't the Range Modifier be like it is for a Bounced attack, i.e. counting every hex along the flight path of the attack as part of the Range?

But that's why you pay points for Indirect. The Indirect advantage implies such power, control and skill that these things do not take any extra effort or ability (at least with that single attack it doesn't). Perhaps that particular arrow is shaped differently, or carries some kind of control system that allows it to stear itself, or perhaps the arrow is designed to be especially resiliant to damage from 'bouncing.'

 

There are lots of different SFXs for Indirect. The bouncing type is one of them, and a GM would be perfectly within his rights to disallow that indirect attack if the combat was happenning in space.

 

Indirect can also be used to concept a gas attack that will seep through/around things (this is the one case, OTTOMH, that makes sense for Hardened defenses stopping an indirect attack), a boomerang type attack that will change direction, a missle or self stearing attack, an attack that comes from an odd direction (fist pops up from the ground, lightning strike etc). There are TONS of different SFXs for indirect. Each has its pros and cons.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Indirect" attacks that follow a parabolic trajectory: what about "Hardened"?

 

Even Nebraska has ground. The only example I know of from 'real life' of bouncing attacks is shooting under cars. Maybe CA can get IFWG to put her FW up in the air a bit. Maybe a PRE attack using 'shooting an arrow in a parabolic trajectory' as sfx, then just shoot her bouncing off the ground. I wouldn't wantt o make it too easy for him. I think he'd need at least +1/2 indirect to get around a force wall anyway, under the present rules.

 

Oh and IFWG? 2 more points, girl, and you are free of those pesky arrows.

 

Can I suggest Indirect should be broken down:

 

A. +1/4 determine direction attack hits (but not where it comes from)

B. +1/4 determine where attack comes from (but not the direction in which it hits)

C. +1/4 ignore intervening barriers

 

A. would allow you to KB someone whichever way you wanted,

B. would allow you to attack around BUT NOT THROUGH barriers,

C. would allow you to attack through non-hardenned barriers

 

You can have as many bits as you need. CA would need B., but might buy A. too for trick shots.