Pistols = Reduced Penetration

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

The simple solution I made in my DarkC game was that all rifle rounds are AP. All "bullet proof" armor is hardened.

 

So, a pistol vs. 2nd Chance Vest (DEF 6 or 7) is going to have a hard time damaging the wearer. But a rifle will slice through it (higher DC and AP). But against plates or interceptor armor (DEF 8+ & hardened) you will need AP rounds (giving the rifles APx2) to overcome it.

 

Works very well and is a systematic change. If you are paying points however I suppose technically you need to add AP to rifles but that's no big. If you aren't paying points for EQ then it's REALLY easy. This is a cinematic approximation to reality that works well enough for my sensibilities (both as a gamer and a military marksman).

[RDU Neil]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

The simple solution I made in my DarkC game was that all rifle rounds are AP. All "bullet proof" armor is hardened.

 

So, a pistol vs. 2nd Chance Vest (DEF 6 or 7) is going to have a hard time damaging the wearer. But a rifle will slice through it (higher DC and AP). But against plates or interceptor armor (DEF 8+ & hardened) you will need AP rounds (giving the rifles APx2) to overcome it.

 

Works very well and is a systematic change. If you are paying points however I suppose technically you need to add AP to rifles but that's no big. If you aren't paying points for EQ then it's REALLY easy. This is a cinematic approximation to reality that works well enough for my sensibilities (both as a gamer and a military marksman).

 

Your armor is much higher than I would rate it out to be... but essentially, giving all rifles AP is the flip-side of giving all pistols reduced pen. I'm trying to actually reduce the amount of damage any single round is putting out, rather than increase it. YMMV

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

That's my point. By adding AP you are only changing the damage the round would potentially do to a lightly armored target.

 

Perhaps do both, but only apply Red. Pen vs. Hardened armor. That way pistols will have a hard time dealing with "bullet proof" armor but work as is against light armor (which is fine IMO).

[RDU Neil]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

That's my point. By adding AP you are only changing the damage the round would potentially do to a lightly armored target.

 

Perhaps do both, but only apply Red. Pen vs. Hardened armor. That way pistols will have a hard time dealing with "bullet proof" armor but work as is against light armor (which is fine IMO).

 

I guess my feeling is that 6-7 points is way high for light/soft body armor.

 

Also... with adding AP to rifle rounds, you begin to get into issues with the standard (not talking points here, but non-point Equipment) of AP rounds doing 2/3 damage of the standard round (blowing through rather than delivering full force to the target). Your ruling would make actual AP rounds inferior to standard rifle rounds.

 

To that point, the lack of any decent "blow through" mechanic for Hero is really a core issue to gun combat/damage/armor. Based on the core system rules of Hero (body/stun vs. defense) blow through is simply not compatible. To create a rule, we'd probably need to invent some table or arbitrary rule that is clearly tacked on to the Hero system, and probably more trouble than it's worth.

 

As it is, folks have offered alternatives, but no one has indicated that pistols = reduced pen would break down or cause extra problems... so I think I'll go with that. For one, it should encourage "multiple shots" as is SOP for pistols - flip side keeping them less "one shot lethal" which I also like. PCs with body armor may act with a bit more confidence until they see a long gun on the other side.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

That's cool. IF you made light armor (e.g. 2nd chance vest) 3-4 DEF and made pistols reduced pen then I think that's fine and would probably work well.

 

It doesn't give much wiggle room for things like leather jackets and such. Now a 1 DEF jacket can stop 2 BODY and on a PD 3 person stop 8 STUN. Against 1d6+1 that's pretty significant. If it were 2 DEF jacket then that person can now stop 4 BODY and 10 STUN, giving a 50% with that pistol of doing 2 STUN and 0 BODY. That doesn't seem realistic or cinematic.

 

As for AP rounds, even an AP round with 2/3 the DC of a standard round is still superior because it is double AP now. So, a 2 1/2d6 round becomes 1 1/2d6 APx2. Against 8 hardened it will still penetrate more effectively (slightly) than the standard round. I don't have my notes in front of me but I may have applied two limitations to the AP of the bullets: Does not Apply to STUN damage and -1 STUNx. The AP rounds tend to penetrate flesh just as well as armor so technically should be less damaging once it passes through the armor. However you want to simulate that, I decided the above worked fine and because of that made my AP rounds do the same amount of damage as the regular rounds.

 

I think the Red. Pen approach is fine and I'd love to see what that does to your armor types.

 

Incidentally, how do you then handle slugs vs. shot vs. pistol rounds. Pistol round penetrate much better than shotgun shot which is typically modeled using Red. Pen.

 

I have also played a lot of GURPS with its beautiful gunplay rules (including blow-through and what not). I think it is an excellent system for that but (and it's a sizable hiney) it isn't cinematic. Bodies end up everywhere. If that's what you are going for, great. I prefer a little less realism in my Hero games and find my AP system works fine. One of the things GURPS did (I don't know if its this way in 4e) is to halve the damage caused by AP rounds once they penetrate. So, 8 pts vs. 8 DEF would be 0 dmg, but 8 pts AP vs. 8 DEF (halved) would be 2 dmg (4 halved).

 

(stream of conciousness)

 

If that's the case, an alternative might be to make Rifles AP and leave pistols alone. Harden "bullet proof" armors to counteract that. AP rounds would do standard damage to armor (which would be halved), but half damage to the target (including STUN).

 

That would be like buying 1/2 the damage as "only to penetrate armor -1".

 

4 DC AP = 30 pts

4 DC AP, Only to Pen Armor -1 = 15 pts

8 DC = 45 pts. That's close enough for me to create an advantage called "Realistic AP +0" and state that any damage that gets through defenses is halved. Against an unarmored target it would be doing half damage (which is appropriate), but is still effective against an armored target.

 

Yeah, thanks for the thought bouncing. I like that idea (adds tweak to Hero gunplay toolkit).

[Tom Carman]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

I used to run a Space:1889 campaign in HERO, and there was armor around (since it was in the source material). However, I ran it that armor only had half-value against firearms. Leather is 3 DEF, chain is 5 DEF, and plate is 7 DEF. When halving, the defense rounds UP against handguns, and DOWN against rifles.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

I used to run a Space:1889 campaign in HERO' date=' and there was armor around (since it was in the source material). However, I ran it that armor only had half-value against firearms. Leather is 3 DEF, chain is 5 DEF, and plate is 7 DEF. When halving, the defense rounds UP against handguns, and DOWN against rifles.[/quote']

 

For reflecting that time period, and the significant increase in damage that firearms brought compared to armor made to stop blades and clubs... I'd feel fine with that. Simple too, and that is always a benefit.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

That's cool. IF you made light armor (e.g. 2nd chance vest) 3-4 DEF and made pistols reduced pen then I think that's fine and would probably work well.

 

It doesn't give much wiggle room for things like leather jackets and such. Now a 1 DEF jacket can stop 2 BODY and on a PD 3 person stop 8 STUN. Against 1d6+1 that's pretty significant. If it were 2 DEF jacket then that person can now stop 4 BODY and 10 STUN, giving a 50% with that pistol of doing 2 STUN and 0 BODY. That doesn't seem realistic or cinematic.

 

I wouldn't allow a leather jacket to provide any armor unless it was really heavy duty... and then there are plenty of examples of even nylon windbreakers stopping .38s on occasion, so 1 pt of armor wouldn't bug me. Plus... stun isn't divided... only body. So the full stun is applied but the body is cut in half for application. That's how Reduced Pen has always worked IIRC.

 

As for AP rounds, even an AP round with 2/3 the DC of a standard round is still superior because it is double AP now. So, a 2 1/2d6 round becomes 1 1/2d6 APx2. Against 8 hardened it will still penetrate more effectively (slightly) than the standard round. I don't have my notes in front of me but I may have applied two limitations to the AP of the bullets: Does not Apply to STUN damage and -1 STUNx. The AP rounds tend to penetrate flesh just as well as armor so technically should be less damaging once it passes through the armor. However you want to simulate that, I decided the above worked fine and because of that made my AP rounds do the same amount of damage as the regular rounds.

 

Not quite sure I followed this, but then I'm half conscious today. My only concern is getting TOO many limitations/advantages piled on. I like to keep things simple. I do agree that to best simulate bullets and armor (modern) you'd need 5-6 armor types with lots of lims/advs to simlulate what they do well, and what they don't... and probably 10 different bullet types to simulate the variety of "standard" rounds... before you even get to AP and hollow point, etc. Probably too much detail to really be playable, IMO.

 

I think the Red. Pen approach is fine and I'd love to see what that does to your armor types.

 

Incidentally, how do you then handle slugs vs. shot vs. pistol rounds. Pistol round penetrate much better than shotgun shot which is typically modeled using Red. Pen.

 

Probably the fact that the slug is larger (and shot is "more") I'd simply have the damage be noticably higher than pistols... and possibly +1 Stun multiple as well. Since this is Heroic level we are discussing, I'm using the Hit Location chart by default... so rolling a stun multiplier (or usign flat multiplier) is not an issue. My basic understanding is that shotgun slugs/shot have higher muzzle velocity and more mass... though nothing like a rifle round. I may be wrong in this.

 

I have also played a lot of GURPS with its beautiful gunplay rules (including blow-through and what not). I think it is an excellent system for that but (and it's a sizable hiney) it isn't cinematic. Bodies end up everywhere. If that's what you are going for, great. I prefer a little less realism in my Hero games and find my AP system works fine. One of the things GURPS did (I don't know if its this way in 4e) is to halve the damage caused by AP rounds once they penetrate. So, 8 pts vs. 8 DEF would be 0 dmg, but 8 pts AP vs. 8 DEF (halved) would be 2 dmg (4 halved).

 

I played only very little GURPS, and my main feeling was that certain weapons did WAY too much damage. (Rifles I'm thinking of, here.) but I can't speak from any level of expertise.

 

(stream of conciousness)

 

If that's the case, an alternative might be to make Rifles AP and leave pistols alone. Harden "bullet proof" armors to counteract that. AP rounds would do standard damage to armor (which would be halved), but half damage to the target (including STUN).

 

That would be like buying 1/2 the damage as "only to penetrate armor -1".

 

4 DC AP = 30 pts

4 DC AP, Only to Pen Armor -1 = 15 pts

8 DC = 45 pts. That's close enough for me to create an advantage called "Realistic AP +0" and state that any damage that gets through defenses is halved. Against an unarmored target it would be doing half damage (which is appropriate), but is still effective against an armored target.

 

Yeah, thanks for the thought bouncing. I like that idea (adds tweak to Hero gunplay toolkit).

 

Could work. Examples like the Delta Force reports out of Mogadishu (where they were assigned 5.56 AP rounds) were that they hated them against the unarmored but drugged/aggressive militia faced there. The AP rounds had low stopping power/kill power. They were desperate for standard ball ammunition for their HKs, since penetrating body armor wasn't a concern at all. Also seems to fit what I've read about the HK PDW and the P-90... small "rifle" rounds that can penetrate body armor, but have little stopping/kill power per round.

 

Thanks for the input.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

The key to GURPS high rifle damage is that there is blow through. So even a 7d6 hit on the arm is only going to disable the arm, causing a maximum of HP/2 damage (avg. 5). The problem really was that you could never be nicked. You would either have a disabled limb or not get hit. Even a torso hit would blow through on HP damage (avg. 10). This could cause someone to bleed to death, maybe even go uncon. but they could also still keep fighting (with good Health). Unless you shot someone multiple times or hit them in the vitals or head (no blow through) you would most likely take them out of the fight but not kill them.

 

I agree that too many limitations spoils the fun. I also think that changing fundamental values (such as archaic armor) gets dodgy as well. I'd rather add AP than Red. Pen, keeping that for shotgun shot and other effects.

 

You are correct in that Red. Pen. only applies to the BODY of the attack, not STUN.

 

So, my summary:

 

1. Harden "bullet proof" armor.

2. Rifles are RKA AP, Pistols are RKA, and Intermediate Weapons (PDW, P90) are Realistic AP.

3. AP ammunition is Realistic AP

4. APDU is straight AP

 

Hollow Point should probably Expanding +0. This is the inverse of Realistic AP. It acts as Reduced Pen but all damage that penetrates armor is doubled (flesh only).

 

Frangible would be just straight Red. Pen. This would be hard to simulate (I think) if you were to make all pistols Red. Pen. since it would have nowhere to go.

 

Another argument against Red. Pen for pistol rounds is that a pistol round can penetrate several layers of drywall. Something with Red. Pen will have a hard time doing that since drywall is at least DEF 2 BODY 2 (Home Interior wall is listed as DEF 3 BODY 3 which may be more accurate) and 9mm rounds do that all the time (with unfortunate results).

[RDU Neil]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

Frangible would be just straight Red. Pen. This would be hard to simulate (I think) if you were to make all pistols Red. Pen. since it would have nowhere to go.

 

Not sure what Frangible is (I know what it means, but don't know what it represents as far as ammunition.)

 

Another argument against Red. Pen for pistol rounds is that a pistol round can penetrate several layers of drywall. Something with Red. Pen will have a hard time doing that since drywall is at least DEF 2 BODY 2 (Home Interior wall is listed as DEF 3 BODY 3 which may be more accurate) and 9mm rounds do that all the time (with unfortunate results).

 

This is actually a problem with how Hero simulates the defenses of inanimate objects. I don't think drywall has more than 1 rPD... but probably has 3-4 total PD, just that the other 3 points is non-resistant. Objects should have PD/ED and rPD/rED just like characters. Car doors have 2rPD, but probably 6 total PD, etc.

 

Either way, there is "kludge" You see reduced pen as leaving little room for frangible, but I see your idea requiring two kinds of AP, AP and Realistic AP.

 

Oh... stream of conscious... if frangible ammo is like flechettes and such... I'd see them as reduced pen, but also as "cutting attacks" which would by AP vs. soft armor only. This, of course is getting really kludgy in it's own right... but as I said, to sim ammo and armor more realistically, you need all kinds of exceptions "Only vs ..." kind of statments and "Not vs ..." etc. That's just annoying.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

Frangible is similar to Flachette except it's not designed to cut. The idea is a round that is sufficiently lethal to unarmored soft targets (i.e. people) but that will effectively disintigrate if it hits anything hard (like drywall) so that it can be used in high density locations without collateral casualties.

 

I have never had a problem with the DEF values of Hero objects.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

I had a lengthy post early on in this discussion but the computer ate it and I couldn't face typing it again, by the time I did you seemed to have come up with something you liked anyway. But onto shotguns I was toying with saboted slugs normal damage, rifled slugs x1 Rpen, buckshot x2 Rpen and small / bird shot x3 Rpen this makes shot guns even loaded with bird shot quite dangerous but armor is increasingly effective. Slugs have a tremedous amount of energy but are typically lead alloy and large caliber so don't penetrate nearly as well as a rifle with similar energy, saboted slugs are smaller and lighter which reduces their energy but the are also smaller caliber and harder alloys which is why I gave them no Rpen. Large shot has reasonable penetration but even level 1 body armor can stop 000 buck, the smaller shot is often recommended for home defense since it is not that likely to penetrate a wall unlike buckshot.

 

Frangable rounds are made to break up easily, they were initially made as training rounds for shooting at aircraft (modified P-39s mostly) without actually shooting down the aircraft, they eventually moved into indoor ranges and then somebody got the idea of using them for tactical operations where penetration is a bad idea. The current ones I've seen are lead powder so they have the weight of a normal round ("knock down") but break up against armor, walls etc rapidly using up their energy. Glaser rounds are a similar idea but were designed for maximum effectiveness in flesh with a minimum of ricochets, glancing hits tend to make them disentigrate, flesh opens them up for maximum disruption and a clean hit against hard surfaces makes them close up to penetrate better.

[Curufea]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

If pistols and rifles are both using the same ammunition - they should cause the same damage. Rifles are merely more accurate.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

But pistols and rifles don't use the same ammunition. Rifle rounds are high velocity, low mass projectiles while pistol rounds are high mass, low velocity projectils (relatively speaking). The mass of a rifle round is typically 1/2 to 1/3 (or less) of a pistol round but travels at 3x the velocity, and subsequently rifle rounds deliver a greater fource over a smaller area resulting in greater penetration. Ballistics is far more complicated than that, but that's the gist of it.

 

Shotguns: your multiple levels of reduced pen - are they 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 for BODY damage? That might work, but it needs to be coupled with either area effect or some other mechanic for handling the spread of the shot. You use shot to increase the chances of hitting your target at range (and control the spread with the choke), giving up lethality (since it is usually used on ducks that's not such a big deal).

 

Slugs should do a significant amount of damage, with reduced range, perhaps increased STUNx. I thought the shotgun writeups in DC were fine, and actually like the impact that shot rounds have on play since they are AE: 1 hex. Perfect for snap shots and CQB. 1st man is has a shotgun, 2nd has a rifle and a held action. Can you say, "Sit down rookie!" I knew ya could.

 

In fact, I like most of the writeups in DC - I just think the relationship between pistols and rifles as presented therein is too incremental. I'm happy with using all the DC material with the exception of adding AP and Hardened as described above. When we played that out, it had a good feel and did not upset my firearms sensibilities. I hate rewriting material that's already well done (I recognize not everyone agrees with the writeups in DC), but the firefights I ran and the role of each weapon worked well enough for me and was certainly realistic enough yet satisfyingly cinematic.

[gewing]

Re: Pistols = Reduced Penetration

 

Rifles can, indeed, use the same ammunition as pistols. A standard .44 magnum round fired in a carbine or rifle will gain about 400 fps in muzzle velocity. This is not 100% predictable, though, .45 ACP can actually lose velocity as the barrel length increases past about 10-14" iirc.

 

pistols can also use rifle ammunition, again IIRC a 5.56 "pistol" with an 8" barrel is going to lose probably 6-800 fps compared to a 20" barreled M-16, but that still leaves a RELATIVELY potent round,.

 

But pistols and rifles don't use the same ammunition. Rifle rounds are high velocity, low mass projectiles while pistol rounds are high mass, low velocity projectils (relatively speaking). The mass of a rifle round is typically 1/2 to 1/3 (or less) of a pistol round but travels at 3x the velocity, and subsequently rifle rounds deliver a greater fource over a smaller area resulting in greater penetration. Ballistics is far more complicated than that, but that's the gist of it.

 

Shotguns: your multiple levels of reduced pen - are they 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 for BODY damage? That might work, but it needs to be coupled with either area effect or some other mechanic for handling the spread of the shot. You use shot to increase the chances of hitting your target at range (and control the spread with the choke), giving up lethality (since it is usually used on ducks that's not such a big deal).

 

Slugs should do a significant amount of damage, with reduced range, perhaps increased STUNx. I thought the shotgun writeups in DC were fine, and actually like the impact that shot rounds have on play since they are AE: 1 hex. Perfect for snap shots and CQB. 1st man is has a shotgun, 2nd has a rifle and a held action. Can you say, "Sit down rookie!" I knew ya could.

 

In fact, I like most of the writeups in DC - I just think the relationship between pistols and rifles as presented therein is too incremental. I'm happy with using all the DC material with the exception of adding AP and Hardened as described above. When we played that out, it had a good feel and did not upset my firearms sensibilities. I hate rewriting material that's already well done (I recognize not everyone agrees with the writeups in DC), but the firefights I ran and the role of each weapon worked well enough for me and was certainly realistic enough yet satisfyingly cinematic.