Appropriate Level of Challenge

[Scupper]

Hello,

 

I'm fairly new to Hero from the GM side of the screen and I haven't been able to find much information in the books about what is an appropriate point level for challenging PCs.

 

If there's a particular book I should look at for this, please let me know.

 

In brief, I've got 3 PCs in the 250-point range and I'm trying to determine a good point value for "henchman", "sub-boss", and "boss"-type enemies.

 

Any input would be appreciated.

[MitchellS]

Re: Appropriate Level of Challenge

 

This is a difficult question to answer due to many factors. There are some "normals" examples in 5Er and various types of henchmen [streetpunk, master villain's skilled agent, M.V. competent agent] in Champions. The easiest way to design something is to look at damage/defense/speed averages.

 

If you're 3 PCs have 5 speeds then they are getting 15 attacks per turn. If their average damage is 11d6 then they can expect to roll 38/11. If you want Henchmen to be one-hit foes then they need to have defense and stun totaling less than 38. If you want Sub-bosses to be two-hit foes then they need to have a def/stun total of more than 38. For bosses I'd increase their defense and speed and keep them two-hit foes.

 

Henchmen: 3 speed, 8 def, 20-25 stun

Sub-Bosses: 3 speed, 12 def, 30-35 stun

Bosses: 4 speed, 15 def, 35 stun.

 

Speed and CV are the next determining factors. For each 1 speed less than a hero I add another agent, and for each 2 OCV the agent has less than the DCV of the hero I double.

 

So a 7 DCV, 5 speed hero can fight 6 3 OCV henchmen, 4 5 OCV sub-bosses, or 2 6 OCV bosses without great difficulty.

[Scupper]

Re: Appropriate Level of Challenge

 

Thanks. That was a very succinct and useful answer!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Appropriate Level of Challenge

 

There is also the consideration of the minion/henchmen/boss attacks. It's basically the same thing as MitchellS as described for determining the DEF+STUN of the bad guys, but in reverse. You look at the DEF+STUN of the heroes, decide how easy it should be for any particular character to take them down, and adjust their damage accordingly. The trick is making sure that all of the bad guys can do at least a little bit of damage to the PCs, or else the PCs might simply ignore them. Of course, it could also be interesting if such a foe threatened bystandards instead if he found his attacks ineffective against the heroes.

[Herolover]

Re: Appropriate Level of Challenge

 

You have asked one of the hardest things for a GM to do in HERO. It is very difficult to figure out what is a good match and as you grow into the system you will figure it out.

 

The first thing to consider is how long do you want this character last in combat?

 

Then you need to consider his DCV and his defenses. An example of how I do it is below.

1) I look at my PCs. Joe has SPD 5, an OCV (including CSLs) of 9, and a 12d6 EB

2) Dave has SPD 5, an OCV of 6, and a 14d6 EB.

 

Now looking at this I want my Lt. to fight a good fight, but go down in the I put him at SPD 6 (they will get 10 actions to his 6).

I put his DCV at 8. This means Dave will have to roll a 9- and Joe will have to roll a 12-.

I then do his defense. I don't want them doing BODY so I put my resistant defenses 3 or 4 more than the DC of the attack. So I give LT resistant defense of 18. He wont' take BODY. Now I look at avg damage rolls. Joe will hit a lot with around 42 STUN. Dave wont' hit often, but will hit with 49 STUN. Assuming I give my LT 50 STUN, I can figure he will get hit Once or twice by Dave and 3-5 times by Joe. If I give him 30 defenses that means he will take 19 +19+12+12+12= 74 STUN.

 

Of course, you have to figure Lt may dodge some. Also, how hard does LT hit compared to Joe and Dave's defenses? If he is doing significant damage to them each time he hits I don't want his defenses high or he will overwhelm them.

 

 

There is a lot that goes into creating the "just right villian." It all depends upon your PCs and the exact numbers they have on the character sheets. This is why I usually make up a villain and then fudge and modify things for dramatic effect as I play. Sure I may have written that the bad guy has 40 STUN and only 25 PD, but if he needs to stay up longerr, believe me he will

[prestidigitator]

Re: Appropriate Level of Challenge

 

You have asked one of the hardest things for a GM to do in HERO. It is very difficult to figure out what is a good match and as you grow into the system you will figure it out.

I agree. I have not found it entirely useful to look at point totals. It is better to look at relative levels of OCV, DCV, attacks, defenses, Skills, etc. See what the PCs have (min, max, average), or if the PCs aren't constructed yet use your expected campaign averages and maximums. Perhaps even generate a few sample characters yourself and see what you tend to do with the points. You don't have to get too detailed (though I often ask questions like: this monster has high defenses; will the players have some way to overcome them, or meet the challenge some alternate way?). Just get an idea.

 

Ultimately you are just going to have to experiment a little with real players. You could do this by starting easy and getting more and more challenging until you are comfortable with your ability to judge an encounter, or you could just do some various play-tests (if you have willing players). The good news: it doesn't take long to get to the point where you can make pretty good estimates. A few scenarios and you will probably be pretty good at it (at least for your genre, setting, and rough level of power).

 

I tend to run fantasy heroic games. There, enemies are likely to have a high point total just because of some wacky Enhanced Senses, Life Support, or unusual attack (though one that is not likely to be as dangerous to the PCs as its AP total might indicate). Maybe heroic games make this more difficult because characters can have equipment that is not written down as point totals (and non-humaniod monsters, for example, often have to make up for this with higher point totals since they don't have equipment). In any case, point totals don't seem to be as important as individual Powers (and versatility, but a straight addition of the values of all Powers somehow doesn't cut it).

 

More good news: It probably doesn't matter as much as it does in other game systems unless you make it. The characters will continue to grow and advance even if they lose every fight. This isn't D&D where you can't learn from your mistakes without a really, "alternate," GM style. As long as the characters survive (and believe me, you can keep them alive a long time even in brutal settings with a little imagination; "No, no. They didn't kill you after you were knocked out. They chained you up and dragged you to their labor camp. You wake up to the crack of a whip across your back. Thinking back on it, it probably wasn't a good idea to confront their whole force at once."), you can have a fun and rewarding game no matter the odds.