Must Touch Target Limitation.

[stan da ork]

After carefully reading the rules on No Range Powers, and more specifically, how No Range interacts with Mental Powers, it seems that No Range does not mean the attacker must touch the target. Furthermore, Mental Powers have the special "Requires Skin to Skin Contact" Limitation. I was thinking that this Limitation could be slightly expanded, and a new one added, to represent things like Mental Powers that only work when the attacker touches the target. Note, I realize the book says to apply the Attack Roll variant of RSR, but I don't particularly like this method, as the attack roll in question cannot benefit from CSL's, and it takes penalties based on the Active Points of the Mental Power in question, both of which I don't think make much sense in this case. Also note that "standard Attack Roll" below means an Attack Roll based on OCV v. DCV, as opposed to OECV v. DECV or any other attack roll that may exist.

 

Here are my proposed Limitations:

 

Must Touch Target (-1/4): To affect a target with a Power with this Limitation, the character must touch the target. When used against an unwilling target, this means the character must make a standard Attack Roll. This Attack Roll is made before and in addition to any other Attack Roll that may be necessary to use the Limited Power (such as the ECV-based Attack Roll of a Mental Power). 2-Point CSL's bought for the Limited Power may not be used to increase the attacker's OCV for the touch roll, but the character may buy separate 2-Point CSL's for the touch roll. Normally, this Limitation may only be taken on a No Range Power that does not use a standard Attack Roll to affect the target, although the GM may allow it in other circumstances.

 

Must Make Skin-to-Skin Contact with Target (-1/2): To affect a target with a Power with this Limitation, the character must make skin-to-skin contact with the target. This behaves similarly to Must Touch Target, except that if the target has any part of his body covered, the Attack Roll takes an OCV penalty based on how much skin is actually bare (use the Hit Location rules as a base). If the target is completely covered (ie. by a full-body superhero costume or a suit of platemail armor), the Power cannot affect him. This power follows the same CSL rules of Must Touch Target. Normally, this Limitation may only be taken on a No Range Power that does not use a standard Attack Roll to affect the target. If taken for a power that already requires a standard Attack Roll, it may be taken as a -1/4 Limitation, in which case it does not add an extra Attack Roll, but instead causes the Power's normal Attack Roll to abide by the restrictions set forth above.

 

Comments? Thoughts?

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Must Touch Target Limitation.

 

I believe No Range just means that the Power originates from the user of that Power. Thus, if a character uses an Energy Blast 4d6, No Range, Area of Effect 3" Radius, the power simply centers on him. If this Power had Range, the character could center the Energy Blast on any hex, though Range Modifiers would still apply.

 

A cone of fire shot from one's hand is an example of a Power which, while it is No Range, still can effect targets at a distance. The first hex centers on you, and the conical area would project out in front of you.

 

That's right, isn't it?

[JTesla]

Re: Must Touch Target Limitation.

 

The first hex centers on you, and the conical area would project out in front of you.

 

That's right, isn't it?

 

Great point, but just to be technical, the "'target hex' is the hex immediately in front of the character" for some reason that sentence in FRED has always stuck with me. Almost like there is something diabolical I could do with it, but just can’t place my finger on it.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Must Touch Target Limitation.

 

I believe No Range just means that the Power originates from the user of that Power. Thus, if a character uses an Energy Blast 4d6, No Range, Area of Effect 3" Radius, the power simply centers on him. If this Power had Range, the character could center the Energy Blast on any hex, though Range Modifiers would still apply.

 

That's right, isn't it?

yes i think that's right, but i can't find a page number

[stan da ork]

Re: Must Touch Target Limitation.

 

From 5ER:

 

No Range Powers only work, at best, within the hex the character's currently occupying, or adjacent hexes - in other words, they can only affect targets within HTH Combat distance. This may mean the character has to touch the target of the Power to affect him, but not necessarily.

 

My concern is with that last line. It implies that a No Range Power does not require the character to actually touch the target. Now, for most Powers that require a standard (OCV v. DCV) Attack Roll, that pretty much implies touching. But what about No Range Mental Powers? Since they still require an ECV based Attack Roll, that really doesn't imply any touching going on. I want something that simulates the touching requirement that works better than RSR, since that Limitation carries some baggage with it that I don't think applies to this situation.

 

Oh, and this really doesn't apply to AoE attacks, since they target a hex, and not an individual character.

 

EDIT: Page 101, for the above reference.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Must Touch Target Limitation.

 

hmmm maybe just an RSR modified so that skill lvls add to it, and call it a special effect?

[stan da ork]

Re: Must Touch Target Limitation.

 

By the RSR table, a standard RSR that isn't modified by the number of Active Points is worth -0. I think that it is still a Limitation, however, and therefore am proposing a different Limitation, rather than screwing with the existing RSR rules, for what I think is probably a rather common situation. Also, by taking No Range and the Skin-to-Skin Limitations, you get a -1 Limitation, the same as the current Skin-to-Skin Limitation for Mental Powers.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Must Touch Target Limitation.

 

I believe, in our group, we've handled this one with Activation Roll: Attack roll.

 

Though maybe that's something else entirely. *shrugs*

[stan da ork]

Re: Must Touch Target Limitation.

 

By the book, even if you use the "Attack Roll" variant of RSR, it cannot benefit from CSL's, and it still takes a -1 penalty per 10 AP being activated. The advantage I'm proposing does not suffer these restrictions.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Must Touch Target Limitation.

 

By the book' date=' even if you use the "Attack Roll" variant of RSR, it cannot benefit from CSL's, and it still takes a -1 penalty per 10 AP being activated. The advantage I'm proposing does not suffer these restrictions.[/quote']

Ah. Okay. I see why you'd build it that way, then.

 

I'm just curious about the (-1/4) value. How'd you decide that's what it was worth?

 

(Since you probably don't know me very well, I'll clarify - I really don't know. That's an honest question, not a criticism.)

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Must Touch Target Limitation.

 

Hmm.

 

Skin contact required might actually not be enough of a limitation.

 

It combines No Range (-1/2), Must make an extra (dex based) attack roll (probably -1/2, contains the sublimit Not On Desolid, at least a -1/4), AND Stopped Completly by Any Kind Of Covering (-1/2?)

 

On the other hand, Telepathy and Mind Control are arguably not really 'combat' powers. Both have a LOT of noncombat uses, and a 'not usuable in combat' limitation for them would probably not rate more than a -1, all told, so a 'Using It In Combat Is A Total Pain In The Ass' limitation shouldn't, either.

 

Ego Attack and to a lesser extent Mental Illusions are more combat oriented, though and should probably get -1 1/2 for skin contact required. Most of MI's noncombat uses are going to be a pain to arrange if you have to actually touch the targets skin. (though the old 'I give the cashier a single and make him think it's a $50 still works)

 

-3/4 is a reasonable compromise under the circumstances. Though you should probably phrase it 'Must Make Successful Standard Attack Roll,' which sounds more Hero-ee.

 

Now, if you wanted to use OCV _INSTEAD OF_ ECV that would be a pretty mild disad/advantage, depending on how high your dex and ego are.

 

--

What about people without skin?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Must Touch Target Limitation.

 

I've always just considered this part of the SFX of the No Range Limitation. Here's the choices, made at Power creation time and with no difference in value:

• No Range: This is the default. You need not actually make contact with the target, and the attack is still considered a, "Ranged," attack even though it is not actually made at range. Therefore, CSLs may only apply if they would normally apply to Ranged attacks, and Damage Shields are not activated.
  
• No Range (HTH): You actually need to make contact with the target, and the attack is considered a, "Hand-To-Hand," attack. Therefore CSLs may only apply if they would normally apply to HTH attacks, and Damage Shields are activated.

I know the second option carries some additional restrictions, but I think they are counter-balanced by the fact that you can apply HTH CSLs (which I think tend to be more common in many campaigns), and you can use them in Sweeps and Multi-Power Attacks with your Strength (including Grab, Strike, Martial Maneuvers, etc.).

 

If you actually needed to make skin contact I would consider it an additional Limitation, and it would depend on how difficult making that skin contact is defined to be (does clothing count, but not armor? How common is armor in this campaign? Etc.). Probably -1/4 is appropriate as a default.

 

EDIT: Oh, and for Mental Powers and such that require two attack rolls (usually one OCV and one ECV), I do use RSR.

[gojira]

Re: Must Touch Target Limitation.

 

I'd be inclined to resolve a "skin contact" with a grab roll. You have to grab a specific spot (hand, wrist, forearm, etc) or item (gun, etc.) anyway, so it seems to fit. Any touch to any body part or item on the target's person could be just a SFX, and not need even an attack roll. You'd still have to be in HTH range though, of course.

 

Depending on how often I think villians with some form of total skin protection (power armour, full body costume, really thick rocky skin, force field) appear, I'd give it a 1/4 to 1/2 additional limitation.

 

 

Rep to Stan du'Ork though for actually reading the book to find out that No Range means just that!

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Must Touch Target Limitation.

 

Today I was skimming 5ER, and I could SWEAR I saw an entry that read something like, "Must Touch Target" near the "No Range" or "HtH" kind of sections....

 

So, I think there's an official provision in the rules about this, but I'm not sure where.

[stan da ork]

Re: Must Touch Target Limitation.

 

AliceTheOwl: I picked -1/4 because standard RSR is -1/2, and this isn't as restrictive as that Limitation, but I feel it is still a Limitation.

 

Ura-Maru: Both of these Limitations can be taken in addition to No Range (and usually make no sense without it). Thus, for Must Touch Target, you are effectively getting -3/4, and for Skin-to-Skin you are getting -1. This value (-1) jives with the canon version of Skin-to-Skin Contact, which is only allowed on Mental Powers by the book, and includes No Range in the value.

 

prestidigitator: Both of these disadvantages are mostly aimed at the "Note" part of your post, that is, requiring two Attack Rolls to affect the target. I just don't like the fact that an RSR with no penalty due to AP is always a -0, even with the Attack Roll option. I can understand that for a normal RSR, since you can cheaply buy up your skill to 18- and only fail on an 18 in most cases, but for an Attack Roll, where the target gets to apply his DCV, I think that this is more limiting than a -0. For cases where you still only make one Attack Roll, I agree with your ruling - Must Touch Target is effectively -0, while Skin-to-Skin is -1/4.

 

gojira: Allowing Skin-to-Skin contact to be fulfilled with a Grab actually does make sense in many situations. Perhaps an option on Skin-to-Skin, reducing the value to -1/4 if a Grab roll can be made in addition to a standard Attack Roll with a hit location penalty? The limitation regarding fully covered targets would still apply, of course.

 

Black Lotus: The entry for the No Range Limitation contains the following text: "In some cases, the special effects of a No Range power dictate that the character actually has to touch the target of the power to affect him/it; this does not change the Limitation's value." (5ER, p. 302) However, this does not address having to make two distinct Attack Rolls to affect the target (one OCV based and one OECV based). I believe it has more to do with the things prestidigitator brought up, such as Damage Shields and the like. In fact, the rules for Mental Powers specifically mention adding RSR to a Mental Power to simulate that you must touch your target. I just feel that RSR doesn't accurately reflect this situation, and am proposing these new Limitations to overcome that inaccuracy.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Must Touch Target Limitation.

 

prestidigitator: Both of these disadvantages are mostly aimed at the "Note" part of your post' date=' that is, requiring two Attack Rolls to affect the target. I just don't like the fact that an RSR with no penalty due to AP is always a -0, even with the Attack Roll option. I can understand that for a normal RSR, since you can cheaply buy up your skill to 18- and only fail on an 18 in most cases, but for an Attack Roll, where the target gets to apply his DCV, I think that this is more limiting than a -0. For cases where you still only make one Attack Roll, I agree with your ruling - Must Touch Target is effectively -0, while Skin-to-Skin is -1/4.[/quote']

Ah. I see. I just ignore the RSR penalty (allowing a full -1/2) if the roll is an Attack Roll rather than a Skill Roll or Characteristic Roll. Maybe I'm too much of a softy there.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Must Touch Target Limitation.

 

Ah. I see. I just ignore the RSR penalty (allowing a full -1/2) if the roll is an Attack Roll rather than a Skill Roll or Characteristic Roll. Maybe I'm too much of a softy there.

 

That's how my group has always played it

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Must Touch Target Limitation.

 

Ah . . . I'm not sure what your response to my post is saying.

 

To clarify: I would only allow this when dealing with a mental power that required an _extra_ OCV attack to hit before you could even try the ECV attack. For a regular, (Non AOE) OCV based attack, having to touch the target, or come so close to it there's no difference that matters, is part of the limitation.

 

I don't think there's any need to mess with RSR at all. A flat Limited Power: Must Hit Target With An OCV Attack Roll Before Making ECV Attack Roll (-3/4), seems reasonable for a mental power, considering Skin Contact is -1. Far better to describe what the limitation actually does than to try to cram it into another limitation that works in a different way.

 

Now, I'd let a no range mental power be used with ECV instead of OCV, of course, at just the standard No Range limitation. In fact, I'd consider that the default. In that _specific case_, I'd assume that just being close enough to touch is enough, without actually doing it. (and without setting off damage shields)

 

--

How about zombies? They don't have skin. Or Grond. He's got scales. What about that stone guy from the Crowns of Crym?