Long winded request for assistance

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Long winded request for assistance

 

Roy' date=' those are some of the cheeziest things I've seen in a long time. Funny as hell, man.[/quote']

 

I told him the same thing when he IMed them to me ^-^

[MitchellS]

Re: Long winded request for assistance

 

eh' date=' that's good for them. personally a 24d6 hth attack isn't that scary at 350 points.[/quote']

If you don't think 24d6 [which averages 84/24] isn't scary against foes with 20-30 defense then you must be new to the game.

 

also, be more clear about p.28. I see nothing that says anythign about those guidelines. If you are refering to the table, that's not a good source. And here's why...just one example

it says that a standard super heroic character has 40-80 AP in a power and DC of 6-14 But with 80AP I can afford 16 dice of HA

there is also nothing that says that there has to be a corolation between DC limit and AP limit.

Your forgetting that a 12d6 with 1/2 end is 75 AP. That's where the difference comes in. Advantages can take over the DC threshold.

 

That doesn't mean you can't lmit it that way. It's just not as cut and dry as you've stated, or at least does not apear to be. Also since these are typical ranges not absolute ones, they are simply to help keep these character's defenses and damage in line with one another, not definate rules.

Yes, and they seem to be the rules the new character needs to be designed around, for the most part.

 

A simple clarification from sjmiller about his GM's desires makes this argument moot anyway

Sure. What I'm seeing here is a weak GM who couldn't say "no" to a friend, and now the friend is destroying the game. I've seen that a hundred times over the years.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Long winded request for assistance

 

Yes, I know. But, if it's DC then 12d6 is the limit. If it's AP per power then the only characters who would benefit from that rule would be bricks or people using martial arts. So if it is AP per power then buy the following:

 

12d6 EB

MA: ranged offensive strike: +4d6 with +8 DC with marial arts

Naked advantage: x2 AP on 12d6 EB.

 

Three different 60 AP powers that can all be added together.

 

you could just buy an aid to your attack. If it's a DC cap then the aid should not work, especially if you want to argue that strength can't add if it's past 60 AP limit. If it's a simple AP limit on the power then the aid would work.

 

Also, ANY ammount of strength adding to an attack is helpful.

And not just to bricks, 10 strength adds DC to my attack too, I don't have to have 20+ for it to help.

Granted bricks get more of a benifet, but then they payed for it by buying more strength. I do not see a problem with this, and do not feel that it only helps one kind of character.

 

I also don't see a problem with those powers adding together. If the GM doesn't set a Damage cap then yes you can do that. But if he does than you can't. That's why I do both.

 

Again, this can all be cleared up by a clarification of the limit.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Long winded request for assistance

 

If you don't think 24d6 [which averages 84/24] isn't scary against foes with 20-30 defense then you must be new to the game.

[/Quote]

 

I've been playing for less than a year yes. But if I have that many points I would have bought damage reduction as well. Wich makes those rolls a whole lot less scary. There are many ways around a 24d6 normal attack. AND they always have to catch you first. the attack is only scary if you let it be, by not designing character with such things in mind. A GM should not have trouble dealing with this, and thus I do not consider it a problem.

Your forgetting that a 12d6 with 1/2 end is 75 AP. That's where the difference comes in. Advantages can take over the DC threshold.

[/Quote]

*sigh* I do not wish to waste the time on this one.

 

Yes, and they seem to be the rules the new character needs to be designed around, for the most part.

all I'll say is "seem to be" I'd rather have some clarification than assume.

 

At this point though I don't really care anymore. Since you wont sway and I wont either it makes no sense to continue. So I respectfully call draw and bow out.

[MitchellS]

Re: Long winded request for assistance

 

I've been playing for less than a year yes. But if I have that many points I would have bought damage reduction as well. Wich makes those rolls a whole lot less scary. There are many ways around a 24d6 normal attack. AND they always have to catch you first. the attack is only scary if you let it be' date=' by not designing character with such things in mind. A GM should not have trouble dealing with this, and thus I do not consider it a problem.[/quote']

350 is the standard starting level [perhaps you're playing at a lower level]. Let's look at our only example characters:

 

Defender: Would be stunned, knocked out, and taking body from a 24d6 punch.

 

Nighthawk: Would be stunned, knocked out, and taking body from a 24d6 punch.

 

Sapphire: Would be stunned, knocked out, and taking body from a 24d6 punch.

 

Witchcraft: Would be stunned, knocked out, and taking body from a 24d6 punch.

 

Ironclad: Would be stunned and left with 6 stun to defend himself.

 

That's a typical 350 point team. None of them would stand up to a 24d6 attack. There are only 3 characters I can think of off the top of my head who can even do a 24d6+ attack in the CU.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Long winded request for assistance

 

350 is the standard starting level [perhaps you're playing at a lower level]. Let's look at our only example characters:

 

Defender: Would be stunned, knocked out, and taking body from a 24d6 punch.

 

Nighthawk: Would be stunned, knocked out, and taking body from a 24d6 punch.

 

Sapphire: Would be stunned, knocked out, and taking body from a 24d6 punch.

 

Witchcraft: Would be stunned, knocked out, and taking body from a 24d6 punch.

 

Ironclad: Would be stunned and left with 6 stun to defend himself.

 

That's a typical 350 point team. None of them would stand up to a 24d6 attack. There are only 3 characters I can think of off the top of my head who can even do a 24d6+ attack in the CU.

 

actually this power and higher. One of my current characters for my upcoming game is built on 300 points and could weather that attack just fine.

 

A shape changer with unstable form brought on by his feeling in physical danger Desolidification only to avoid physical blows that the character believes will hurt him abbortive defensive action, costs no endurance.

 

again, I'm not afraid of that attack. It's not unbeatable or unstoppable.

 

75% damage reduction normal for 40 points akes the adverage stun only 21 ad the body is also reduced. Add some resistant defenses and it wont touch him that much on adverage

 

I'm not saying that a 24d6 attack wont hurt characters or villans. But it is very easy to build things it can't hurt much at all.

I have built characters with larger attacks than that as well. I have a ancient Thunasaloren with a 30d6 energy blast lightning attack. The concentrated lightning spike one is worse. But I also have a lot of characters that could kill him. as long as the attacks are in line with the

characters fighting them they aren't a problem.

 

Point don't necessarily make a character powerful, how you build him does. This character may be built to fight a 500 point character, even if he's only 350 points. And that's also ok. Hell, I know a 200 point character that managed to kill a 700 point one all by itself.

 

all the examples in the world wont make me fear a straight HtH

[Kirby]

Re: Long winded request for assistance

 

also, be more clear about p.28. I see nothing that says anythign about those guidelines. If you are refering to the table, that's not a good source. And here's why...just one example

it says that a standard super heroic character has 40-80 AP in a power and DC of 6-14 But with 80AP I can afford 16 dice of HA

there is also nothing that says that there has to be a corolation between DC limit and AP limit.

It's taking into account Advantages.

[Kirby]

Re: Long winded request for assistance

 

actually this power and higher. One of my current characters for my upcoming game is built on 300 points and could weather that attack just fine.

 

...

 

75% damage reduction normal for 40 points akes the adverage stun only 21 ad the body is also reduced. Add some resistant defenses and it wont touch him that much on adverage

 

I'm not saying that a 24d6 attack wont hurt characters or villans. But it is very easy to build things it can't hurt much at all.

 

...

 

Hell, I know a 200 point character that managed to kill a 700 point one all by itself.

 

all the examples in the world wont make me fear a straight HtH

No offense, but these examples and others you gave greatly appear that you're playing on the same munchkin level as the character whom this thread is about. Coupled with your acknowledgement that you've been playing about a year, it doesn't appear you're experienced enough to qualify an answer here. The examples you've listed would probably be nixed by 90% of the GMs on this board.

 

We've probably all made cheesey characters before in an attempt to min/max the game mechanics as opposed to character creation (I know I have); however, the guidelines on page 15 of FREd are clearly being broken and abused and giving examples of your characters that would do the same aren't helping find a solution.

 

My suggestion (take it, leave it, or adjust it) is to step back for a bit and reflect on what it is you're wanting to contribute to this thread.

[Guzalot]

Re: Long winded request for assistance

 

No offense, but these examples and others you gave greatly appear that you're playing on the same munchkin level as the character whom this thread is about. Coupled with your acknowledgement that you've been playing about a year, it doesn't appear you're experienced enough to qualify an answer here. The examples you've listed would probably be nixed by 90% of the GMs on this board.

 

We've probably all made cheesey characters before in an attempt to min/max the game mechanics as opposed to character creation (I know I have); however, the guidelines on page 15 of FREd are clearly being broken and abused and giving examples of your characters that would do the same aren't helping find a solution.

 

My suggestion (take it, leave it, or adjust it) is to step back for a bit and reflect on what it is you're wanting to contribute to this thread.

 

Exactly. When your campaign devolves into who can out-munchkin who it's pretty much over as far as I'm concerned.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Long winded request for assistance

 

No offense, but these examples and others you gave greatly appear that you're playing on the same munchkin level as the character whom this thread is about. Coupled with your acknowledgement that you've been playing about a year, it doesn't appear you're experienced enough to qualify an answer here. The examples you've listed would probably be nixed by 90% of the GMs on this board.

 

We've probably all made cheesey characters before in an attempt to min/max the game mechanics as opposed to character creation (I know I have); however, the guidelines on page 15 of FREd are clearly being broken and abused and giving examples of your characters that would do the same aren't helping find a solution.

 

My suggestion (take it, leave it, or adjust it) is to step back for a bit and reflect on what it is you're wanting to contribute to this thread.

 

*sigh* they aren't munchkin characters. And I can say that because they are beatable and stopable, and it isn't difficult to do so. I have NEVER had a GM complaign about any of my characters, they all have weaknesses are are very balanced. They just happen to be good at avoiding this specific problem. General my high defense characters like the couple I had mentioned for dealing with this attack cannot dish out what they can take. They also all have susceptabilities to common attacks.

 

For eample, the desolid only to avoid physical blows comes packed with a X2 modifier to energy damage and a side effect drain dex linked to that type of damage

 

I suppose you would probubly consider my 300 point dragon character a munchkin too based on her character sheet, but she's been sidelined so many times by the other players that I'd find that an inappropriate lable.

 

The initial point to my posts were that a 24d6 attack was possible IFF (if and only if) the GM ment that the 60 AP cap was just for active points of the power and did not apply to the strength that could be added to it. But that I was not sure that was what the GM ment, and I did not want to assume that it was.

 

I already said earlier that if the GM means for the 60AP to also be a damage cap then MitchellS was right and that powerful an attack would not be acceptable.

 

I also have stated that there would be no issue if we were provided with GM clarification.

 

I have a lot of problems with being told that I can't know what I'm doing because I haven't played long enough. That's rediculous. I think the problem here is mainly a communication issue.

 

I have never said that the character that the thread is about is a legal character or that the GM should allow him. BUT I do feel that 24d6 HTH is not abusive in the right setting. As this obviously isn't it. If the GM has a problem with it he should talk to the player. But he can also build characters to counteract it. And it isn;t that difficult to build a balanced character that will put a wrentch in this players system. There are much more difficult powers to deal with than a powerful HTH.

 

I will also point this out:

I already did step back and accept that neither of us will agree. And I only returned to the thread after Mitchel did not do the same.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Long winded request for assistance

 

No offense, but these examples and others you gave greatly appear that you're playing on the same munchkin level as the character whom this thread is about. Coupled with your acknowledgement that you've been playing about a year, it doesn't appear you're experienced enough to qualify an answer here. The examples you've listed would probably be nixed by 90% of the GMs on this board.

 

We've probably all made cheesey characters before in an attempt to min/max the game mechanics as opposed to character creation (I know I have); however, the guidelines on page 15 of FREd are clearly being broken and abused and giving examples of your characters that would do the same aren't helping find a solution.

 

My suggestion (take it, leave it, or adjust it) is to step back for a bit and reflect on what it is you're wanting to contribute to this thread.

 

being well built is not being munchkind, if you want an example of how onyx builds characters, look at http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33144

 

Also the things she was discussing were elder kettera for some, the sorta thing that would chew you up and spit you out for trying to kill them, one of those things they take offense to ya know? Check out the "GMing without a party" to get a better idea of what game they're for.

 

Also remember equipment. I've seen a 200 pt character with a big club smack the tar out of a 700pt character. It's all in tactics, how you built the character, and the fact that nothing is unbeatable in HERO

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Long winded request for assistance

 

Roy' date=' those are some of the cheeziest things I've seen in a long time. Funny as hell, man.[/quote']

 

Thanks! see the fire elementals +40 some odd with the demon flames? that's gonna cause the hurting.

[sjmiller]

Re: Long winded request for assistance

 

if this is a rule (no primary power can exceed 60 active pointss) how does this uber-terror guy throw out 30-40 dice? is that a typo?

Well, I could be off on the number of dice. Also, secondary offensive powers can exceed the cap, but must be limited in the number of uses/frequency of uses.

[sjmiller]

Re: Long winded request for assistance

 

also' date=' without sj's GM telling us so, that 60 AP may be the power's limit, not the damage class cap. If it's the damage class total value cap then you are right. If it's merely the offensive power's cap (without things that are usually added to it) then roy it.[/quote']I will try and get the GM to show up here, he has from time to time. Also, there was no damage class cap given. The data I gave in the first post pretty much covers all the info we were given for creating the characters.

 

Gee, you go out of town for a few days and look what happens!

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Long winded request for assistance

 

well based on what was posted I would think the 60 AP refers to the power, not to everything else that could be used with it. But the clarification would be nice, thanks! I hope you had a nice time away.

[Vondy]

Re: Long winded request for assistance

 

I think people would be really unhappy in may game. Most defenses run 15-25 and most attack powers run 8d6-11d6 (though seeing reduced endurance or no range modifiers tacked on isn't at all uncommon). A lot of characters have power pools in the 70-80 point range, but I require anything exceeding campaign norms to take big limitations (often huge endurance costs) and players usually don't want to drop any movement and defensive powers beyond the light body armor they all wear to do it (and all power pool powers have to be discusses between us before play). Not only that, but some otherwise inoccuous powers can be really expensive to model. We have one character whose normative attack power is 9d6+1, but because kinetic energy effects can be obscenely expensive, her pool runs 150 points. She's never overpowered the game (all because the player and I are on the same page, and because her power list is carefully hashed out between the two of us (and if she wants to take extra time (a turn) with concentration (1/2 DCV) and spend a whopping 60 END she can throw a 30d6 EB)). A lot of this is whether or not you can trust your players, which is often a matter of taking the time to sit down and hashing things out with them before character design - especially if they're new to your game, or hero in general. If someone hands you a character like this and its not a fit for your game, just say so and help the player rebuild them. I've sure as heck killed my share of wonky builds in my time. Of course, if the player is a consumate dink they should be executed on the spot and the character should be ritually burned. Its the only way to be sure.

[Vondy]

Re: Long winded request for assistance

 

Since I know both the GM and the player fairly well' date=' this is a complicated question to answer. The GM has spoken to the player a few times, and the character is actually toned down from what he started with, I guess. I do not think that we could ask for group approval of his character, because I am fairly sure that he would consider that to be a way for me to shoot down his character and him personally. He's always made abusive characters, and I doubt that will ever change. Sure, we could ask him not to play, but then his sister, who is also playing, might not like that. Complex situation all around.[/quote']

 

Can the sister be used as a polite emissary?

[Vondy]

Re: Long winded request for assistance

 

here, i'm sure this could be improved etc. but it's basic.

 

the rules are simple. Dance around, go Desolid etc when he swings. Because if he hits you GAME OVER, dive for cover do anything to avoid being hit. once it happens, there is no more Inflamo, he becomes the incredible smear.

 

the internal combustion should always be aimed for the head for the most stun.

 

Summon fire elementals and let them kill him.

 

Most normal things won't need the fire elementals or the internal combustion, just hit them in the head repeatedly with your forceful flame.

 

Having read the character: skip the sister. Kill the player and ritually burn the character sheet. Before its too late.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Long winded request for assistance

 

what? do you not like inflamo?

[CBikle]

Re: Long winded request for assistance

 

 

The final player is what I would call a problem player. He’s been playing Hero System for a long time, and knows the rules fairly well. He also, I feel, tries to abuse the rules at every opportunity. His character is a real Caspar Milquetoast sort until he changes identities/is possessed by another being/whatever he does and then he is this “Uber-terror†sort of dark character with lots of strength, lots of armor, and some over-powered melee attacks. I swear, most every attack he makes does 30 to 40 dice of damage. I really can’t see the allure of playing this kind of character, where nothing is a challenge. I also think it violates the four-color comic hero theme we’re supposed to be playing. Basically, the guy is a power gamer/munchkin/gotta win at all costs sort of player.

 

What I want to do, and I know the GM would like it, is beat him at his own game.

 

If the player and/or character is a problem for the game, then the GM should try to fix the situation and if that fails, he should get rid of one or both of them.

 

No offense, but I don't think you're helping things.

[sjmiller]

Re: Long winded request for assistance

 

Well, after talking to the GM recently I think we've come up with a solution to this problem. The GM has been having trouble running the game, and just was not enjoying it as much as he was expecting. He decided that he is going to wrap things up and then I am going to start running a new game.

 

If we run a supers game I am not sure what system we will use. As I said earlier in this thread, I am not terribly familiar with the latest version of Hero System. Learning it would require me to spend a lot of time and money to buy the book, learn the whole system, and be comfortable running a game in a system that the players know more about than the GM.

 

I do have to admit, some of the character suggestions given were truly twisted, and I just might use them, or something like them, in upcoming games.