Dinosaur Planet

[Savinien]

Re: Dinosaur Planet

 

Don't start a new thread, the old stuff will get lost.

 

Editing the old one is OK, though it might be helpful to type in an explicit "last edited" stamp at the top, rather than the bottom where the server puts it.

 

Done. Good idea.

 

Thanks.

[Savinien]

Re: Dinosaur Planet

 

I've added to the write-up on this thread and gathered all the DoS stuff in one location with links to the various threads. I hadn't seen anyone actually looking at it, though...

 

So, I came to the hope-neverending conclusion that you faithful readers hadn't realized the other thread existed.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38166

[Savinien]

Re: Dinosaur Planet

 

Another line of thought you might consider, depending on whether you are building your reptilian races from the "top down" or "bottom up".

 

By "top down" I mean that you already know how you want the species to be like socially and physically, and you just make up a backstory for that to "make it fit". That backstory may not be as watertight as you prefer, but at least you know what your alien race is going to be like.

 

A "bottom up" approach is more difficult but can lead you to novel things. Here, based on only the broadest strokes of your "final" concept is, think about how such a race might have evolved from "ordinary" animal forebears. Carry a lot of extraneous baggage with that, but never lose sight of the essentials: how they breed, and what their preferred environment is.

 

The breeding habits will tell you something about how the race interacts with each other (and by extension, any sentient). We humans have (generally) one offspring at a time, and try to raise them all. But reptiles that lay eggs may do something very different. Is a gravid female maybe physically helpless (like in humans) or just as competent as ever? (That will go quite a way to deciding the relative social powers of the sexes.) Do they have large clutches, or small ones? Are the males involved with guarding the nest/raising the young at all? Does the mother (and/or father) guard the nest, or just remember where it is so they don't go tromping through it? Does the race have communal nests, where many different clutches of eggs are laid and hatch at more or less the same time, so that parentage is not something they think about at all? If the nests are tended, who tends them, and who tends the tenders? Do the hatchlings ignore each other, try to kill each other, or draw support from each other? What is the race's standard defense against egg-stealers, nestling predators, and so on? (That last question requires you to think about the environment: what are those predators?) What was the technology that let the race first dominate those around it when it rose to sentience?

 

Thinking the "bottom up" points all the way through is a lot of work, because you have so many choices, but once you're done with it you will have a pretty good handle on the core social structure of the species, and that will let you answer other questions much more easily and confidently.

 

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, but the concept might be too big for me. Anyone want to add something?

 

All I know about the Sauriel at this point is that they're lizardmen, what their current lifestyle is like, and that they once travelled the stars. Some Sauriel have psionic talent and the ancestors learned to breed living crystal to harness this psionic power.

 

If anyone would like to brainstorm, please post up your thoughts...

[Cancer]

Re: Dinosaur Planet

 

As an example ...

 

Breeding habits. Start with the assertion that these reptiles lay eggs. (A number of snakes, at least, don't, so this isn't required.)

 

What's the condition of a female about to lay a clutch? If extremely encumbered (like humans) then there must be a pretty substantial social support structure to keep her from getting eaten while carrying the egg(s) around. If only modestly encumbered, then not nearly so much social cooperation is needed; maybe only the mate. If not really affected at all, then there's no need for post-mating cooperation between parents.

 

Chances are that to get a race that ends up being starfaring you need a pretty substantial social structure. So let's take a step toward that by declaring that females, before laying eggs, don't get around very well, and are supported/protected by the community while in that state.

 

Next up: How many eggs per clutch? If one, then every egg is precious and has to be nurtured. If a few, you expect to raise to one or two to maturity and similarly expect the rest not to make it. If lots, then the parent or community has to choose somehow which one or two to preserve out of the whole clutch.

 

These choices lead to interesting repercussions with regard to how precious the race considers life. If they have solo eggs, when those eggs are very precious, and that rubs off on what they think of life in general. They'll be "sensitive" dinosaurs. If they have lots of eggs (like 20 or 30) then they are expected to pick the "best" one or 2 out of each clutch to raise, and the rest are going to die, and they think that's the way it should be. Such a race is not going to have a high regard for individual lives, especially of races not their own; it's sort of a "crunch all you want, they'll make more" attitude.

 

It also puts a very interesting evolutionary pressure on the species. That early selection process is exceedingly powerful; only those selected get to live and breed. So now you have to decide how a new dinosaur parent selects which 2 out of 30 hatchlings gets to live. If they choose because of pretty colors, then the young, at least, will have screaming dayglo coloration as they emerge from the egg. If they choose because of intelligence (and that probably means voice), then the babies will vocalize very well when they hatch and will pick up language exceedingly quickly. If they choose because of some nonverbal feedback to the parent, then you get to decide what that nonverbal is, and realize that all the offspring will perform that nonverbal very well, and that behavioral aptitude will carry over into later life. That's almost the kind of thing that becomes a fundamental common denominator through the species as a peacemaking/acceptance/non-aggression sign. If you choose smiling, then the young will have mobile faces and facial expression will be important. If it's some characteristic arm gesture, then (for example) you may get nice huggy dinosaurs. And, it may be that the first one hatched tries to kill all its siblings, and the parents expect to find one, maybe two, gore-crusted hatchlings in the nest one morning jumping joyfully up and down on the shells and broken bodies of their siblings. That means that the dinosaurs come out of the egg as killers, and much of their socialization is going to be channelling that killing instinct toward acceptable targets; such a race is likely to kill any new thing the first time they encounter it, and decide only later whether that's a good policy to maintain with that new discovery.

 

Next decision: Who raises the hatchlings? If it's one or both parents, then that means a tight offspring-parent bond. That propagates onward into meaning that personal ties are important to relationships, and you get personal oaths of fealty, inherited succession, and dynasties controlled by descent: monarchy seems a natural outcome. If the hatchlings are raised by a group of nurturers in the community other than the parents, then bloodlines are irrelevant, and tribes matter. Loyalty is given to the group, not the family, and individuals with the same status are more or less interchangeable. This suggests more like governance by committee is the the likely outcome, which in our experience anyway leads to structured caste systems and a relatively bureaucratic government. (If no one raises the hatchlings, then the creatures are solo and never develop the social structure needed to become starfarers.)

 

Having come to those conclusions, what do you want? If you don't want them bloodthirsty, then choose small clutches and an intrinsic high value for new life. Do you want dinosaur kings, or are they more thoughtful and make the big decisions in a committee or house of parliament? The latter tends to suppress individual initiative, but it's not a blanket thing.

 

Now, where did the dinosaurs evolve? Jungle, plains, forest, or desert? Fold that in with your choices of how many eggs are in a clutch. That indicates what the most important nest predator is likely to be, and therefore what sorts of threats the nest defenses must be prepared to handle, which indicates what sort of cooperation those defenders have to have on an instinctive basis.

 

In a desert, you rarely get groups of predators hunting together: there's not enough resource density to support numbers. That means that a single guardian, or may be two, will be adequate defense (as long as one dinosaur can stand up to an egg-stealer). But in plains, cooperative predation is common, so the nest defenders have to be numerous enough to deal with a pack of coyotes and intelligent enough to maintain tactical cohesion and not let the nest be penetrated by even small parties from the invaders' main force. (This seems like a good racial background if your dinosaurs are master tacticians.) In jungles, the biggest egg-killers may well be swarms of insects, like army ants, so your guardians have to have a way of fending those off... dealing with that usually requires manipulating the environment so the insect army can't get in ... do they master fire early, and maintain a wall of fire around the clutching ground? Do they divert water around the nest, and keep a moat to dissuade the insects? Do they have some way of generating a smell that keeps the insects from finding the eggs in the first place? In forests the egg predators are small bands of creatures ... not as numerous as the packs of the plains, but more than solo marauders, so the response would be intermediate ... but there's an additional joker thrown in because in the forest the environment is "busier", with trees around, so the guards need to be more aware in all directions despite a lot of cover. Suggests more acute senses, maybe faster reactions.

 

The bit about jungles and environment manipulation sounds like a choice to make for dinosaurs that master fire early on, and have an inborn bent to become engineers and modify the crap out their environment. OTOH, the plains origin means intrinsically superior tacticians, and maybe they develop missile weapons, indirect shooting, and so on.

 

Anyway, this is the kind of thing I meant by "bottom up" thinking. Clearly lots of choices and interpretations here, but you arrive at a more fundamental understanding of the race this way.

[Savinien]

Re: Dinosaur Planet

 

THANKS! This is exactly the sort of thing I need to know which direction to turn my divergent brain!

[Savinien]

Re: Dinosaur Planet

 

Are there any creatures currently in existence that become heavily encumbered with their young if they lay eggs? Or, are only mammals really encumbered by child birth?

 

Isn't there some theory that dinosaurs ARE mammals? I'm thinking of making the sauriel mammals and some of the critters used on Mogg IV probably are mammals already.

 

Something to consider: The Suariel WERE a space-faring civilization that has now fallen into ruin and no longer remembers the old days of technology. I picture the tech like the animated Atlantis with Michael J. Fox. Basically, constructs were created that could be manipulated by the psychics within the Sauriel society.

 

I haven't decided yet exactly what happened to create the Dark Ages of the Sauriel, but some sort of split occured. Some folks believed that star-faring was a good thing and continue. Another group of the schism didn't. The end of civilization (and the fall of Atlantis-like city) created a stigma against Sauriel High-Tech that exists even now, millenia after it occured.

 

There are those that believe the time of Darkness should end and the arrival of Tarka Ulnos is an omen that the time has arrived. That contingent of the people will be wanting Tarka to assist them. The other group, which is the majority of the Sauriel Race feels otherwise and will prove as foils.

 

I'm picturing the Sauriel to be small tribes only occasionaly interacting with each other. There are tribes within the jungle, possibly the Savannah, along the cliffs, and where ever. There is a tribal leader as well as a Slavishe (a shaman). The Slavishe have 'magical' powers which are really psionic in nature. A 'Slavishe' among the Sauriel are quite rare and obvious to other Slavishe, but not non-Slavishe Sauriel (mental awareness to other psychics).

 

The Slavishe have a community of their own and communicate with each other (long distance telepathy). There are schisms within the Slavishe community, naturally. The Slavishe are also the Keepers of the Records. They don't know how the ancient tech worked, nor hard facts about it, but they do have knowledge that non-slavish sauriel aren't party to.

[Cancer]

Re: Dinosaur Planet

 

Are there any creatures currently in existence that become heavily encumbered with their young if they lay eggs? Or' date=' are only mammals really encumbered by child birth?[/quote']

 

Only humans suffer this now. That's because our evolution has been pushed to go for a huge (relatively speaking) brain, and there's a serious difficulty getting that brain out through the birth canal. Consequently, humans have the severe encumbrance in late stages of childbearing, and the birth experience is traumatic for both mother and child. Also, humans have an anomalously short gestation period for mammals their size. Human newborns are really helpless, and stay that way for a long time, as they complete the development that "should" have taken place in utero, but neither mother nor child would survive the birth process if it did.

 

Egglayers probably wouldn't suffer this problem, as you suggest. But they would have to solve a different problem, of letting the egg accommodate the considerable brain growth in the developing young needed for an intelligent species. That suggests soft-shelled eggs, to me, so the eggs would be more vulnerable than most. Also, if you make eggs too big, you start bumping up against scaling law limits. The surface area (through which oxygen diffuses into the egg, which needs the oxygen, obviously) grows more slowly than the volume of the egg, and the oxygen demand of the young is proportional to its volume. So their hatchlings wouldn't be as thoroughly helpless as human infants, but they wouldn't be ready-to-go straight out of the egg, either.

 

So your inference is probably right. Females wouldn't be encumbered by eggs. But the eggs themselves are going to be soft and very vulnerable, and the nest has to be "just right". No burying eggs in the sand when the eggs' ability to meet their oxygen demands is at the edge anyway. Suggests that nest protection and maintenance are pretty intense.

 

Isn't there some theory that dinosaurs ARE mammals? I'm thinking of making the sauriel mammals and some of the critters used on Mogg IV probably are mammals already.

 

The evidence I've read suggests that mammals and reptiles spilt from each other pretty early, and the mammals and dinosaurs aren't related. OTOH, there's really strong evidence that birds are the surviving descendants of dinosaurs now.

 

Something to consider: The Suariel WERE a space-faring civilization that has now fallen into ruin and no longer remembers the old days of technology. I picture the tech like the animated Atlantis with Michael J. Fox. Basically' date=' constructs were created that could be manipulated by the psychics within the Sauriel society.[/quote']

 

Ok, that gives you a lot of wiggle room.

 

I haven't decided yet exactly what happened to create the Dark Ages of the Sauriel, but some sort of split occured. Some folks believed that star-faring was a good thing and continue. Another group of the schism didn't. The end of civilization (and the fall of Atlantis-like city) created a stigma against Sauriel High-Tech that exists even now, millenia after it occured.

 

There are those that believe the time of Darkness should end and the arrival of Tarka Ulnos is an omen that the time has arrived. That contingent of the people will be wanting Tarka to assist them. The other group, which is the majority of the Sauriel Race feels otherwise and will prove as foils.

 

There's a lot that can be explained by handwave with this sort of arrangement; sounds good to me.

 

I'm picturing the Sauriel to be small tribes only occasionaly interacting with each other. There are tribes within the jungle, possibly the Savannah, along the cliffs, and where ever. There is a tribal leader as well as a Slavishe (a shaman). The Slavishe have 'magical' powers which are really psionic in nature. A 'Slavishe' among the Sauriel are quite rare and obvious to other Slavishe, but not non-Slavishe Sauriel (mental awareness to other psychics).

 

The Slavishe have a community of their own and communicate with each other (long distance telepathy). There are schisms within the Slavishe community, naturally. The Slavishe are also the Keepers of the Records. They don't know how the ancient tech worked, nor hard facts about it, but they do have knowledge that non-slavish sauriel aren't party to.

 

With the Slavishe dispersed as they are, sounds like to keep the knowledge and community intact they are non-voluntary members of their telepathic community. In other words, they are more or less always in touch with each other. Otherwise, if they are so rare, and contact between tribes is so infrequent, then the old-time knowledge would very rapidly get fragmented and lost completely. So Slavishe may be defined as those who have that telepathy, and they're stuck with it all their lives. Now, individuals may vary in terms of what they are able to read from the SlavisheNet, and they certainly would vary in terms of their other psionic abilities.

 

That sort of arrangement -- permanent connection to the others -- would mean that the Slavishe would be very gentle with each other ... could be that killing one of them zaps the whole 'net with death pangs, so they wouldn't be willing to kill each other, perhaps? OTOH, they wouldn't have to have anything like that sort of reservation about others not part of the SlavisheNet.

[Savinien]

Re: Dinosaur Planet

 

Only humans suffer this now. That's because our evolution has been pushed to go for a huge (relatively speaking) brain' date=' and there's a serious difficulty getting that brain out through the birth canal. Consequently, humans have the severe encumbrance in late stages of childbearing, and the birth experience is traumatic for both mother and child. Also, humans have an anomalously short gestation period for mammals their size. Human newborns are really helpless, and stay that way for a long time, as they complete the development that "should" have taken place [i']in utero[/i], but neither mother nor child would survive the birth process if it did.

 

Egglayers probably wouldn't suffer this problem, as you suggest. But they would have to solve a different problem, of letting the egg accommodate the considerable brain growth in the developing young needed for an intelligent species. That suggests soft-shelled eggs, to me, so the eggs would be more vulnerable than most. Also, if you make eggs too big, you start bumping up against scaling law limits. The surface area (through which oxygen diffuses into the egg, which needs the oxygen, obviously) grows more slowly than the volume of the egg, and the oxygen demand of the young is proportional to its volume. So their hatchlings wouldn't be as thoroughly helpless as human infants, but they wouldn't be ready-to-go straight out of the egg, either.

 

So your inference is probably right. Females wouldn't be encumbered by eggs. But the eggs themselves are going to be soft and very vulnerable, and the nest has to be "just right". No burying eggs in the sand when the eggs' ability to meet their oxygen demands is at the edge anyway. Suggests that nest protection and maintenance are pretty intense.

 

This is great information. I'm going to use it when deciding what the 'old civilization' was like and what the current civ resembles. I'm expecting the various tribes, depending on terrain location might be a little different depending on how the Elders of said tribe (or the Slavishe) directed the evolution of said tribe. This will let me create some variance for Tarka to explore as she journies across Mogg IV.

 

 

The evidence I've read suggests that mammals and reptiles spilt from each other pretty early' date=' and the mammals and dinosaurs aren't related. OTOH, there's really strong evidence that birds are the surviving descendants of dinosaurs now.[/quote']

 

Not sure what to do with this. I've already established the Sauriel, the Horned Ghosts, some sort of flying creatures, and the 'stirge'/batsquitto. The later may be a creation of the Sauriel during an ancient conflict that also has Mental Awareness and attacks any emanations of that sort.

 

 

With the Slavishe dispersed as they are, sounds like to keep the knowledge and community intact they are non-voluntary members of their telepathic community. In other words, they are more or less always in touch with each other. Otherwise, if they are so rare, and contact between tribes is so infrequent, then the old-time knowledge would very rapidly get fragmented and lost completely. So Slavishe may be defined as those who have that telepathy, and they're stuck with it all their lives. Now, individuals may vary in terms of what they are able to read from the SlavisheNet, and they certainly would vary in terms of their other psionic abilities.

 

That sort of arrangement -- permanent connection to the others -- would mean that the Slavishe would be very gentle with each other ... could be that killing one of them zaps the whole 'net with death pangs, so they wouldn't be willing to kill each other, perhaps? OTOH, they wouldn't have to have anything like that sort of reservation about others not part of the SlavisheNet.

 

I wasn't picturing SlavisheNet as involuntary. I envision the Slavishe as shamen/medicine men. They don't 'know' they have psionic powers. They believe they are given gifts (curses) from the ancients. Slavishe translates as 'slave to the tribe'. They don't breed and are the only religious leaders of the tribe. They do have a higher (?) purpose though of making sure the Sauriel race continues to exist.

 

Not all Slavishe agree on the best way to do that. They have the ability to auger the ancients, but the edicts come down in vagueries such as 'reading' the bones, or strange visions. They would consider their powers as magic. They can speak to each other, but it involves a ritual and is more like using 'Seeing Pools', or Crystal Balls. And, if one Slavishe is contacting another, the other doesn't have to 'pick up the phone' if he doesn't want to.

 

The sect which all Slavishe belong to (neophytes being taught by the Slavishe of their tribe) is more of a loose relationship than anything else. The chances for tribes in proximity communicating is greater than distant or tribes from other 'terrains'. Slavishe don't have a 'global' mental awareness, so it isn't a simple thing to contact other Slavishe, especially ones they don't personally know, or haven't been taught to contact by the elder Slavishe that taught them.

 

Remember, I have a 'feel' I'm looking for, but mostly I'm making this all up as I type. I really appreciate your thoughts and sounding board, Cancer.

 

Thanks.

[Savinien]

Re: Dinosaur Planet

 

Anybody know anything about egg-laying mammals that carry eggs with them? Perhaps in some sort of pouch like marsupials?

 

If it went the other way and Sauriel females kept eggs in some sort of ovary-like organ. The male sprayed his semen while in body. Then, the eggs grew to a particular size before being 'layed'. Then, the 'overwatch' of the eggs occured, requiring a lot of work by the female. The male had to supply female with food, nutrients, and other needs. Sort of making it like our own 'child birthing-rearing' existence.

 

Plausible?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Dinosaur Planet

 

 

Anybody know anything about egg-laying mammals that carry eggs with them? Perhaps in some sort of pouch like marsupials?

IIRC, there are only two egg-laying mammals -- the spiny anteater and the platypus; neither of them carry the eggs with them, AFAIK.

[Cancer]

Re: Dinosaur Planet

 

I think the egg-laying mammals are monotremes. I don't know if all monotremes lay eggs.

 

There are a number of reptiles that bear live young (the ones I know about are snakes ... rattlesnakes, IIRC). Sharks and at least some skates and rays bear live young too. I assume that the process involves eggs (that don't get the calciferous shell) that complete incubation internally.

[Savinien]

Re: Dinosaur Planet

 

After watching Star Trek today, I thought a bit of self-indulgent necromancy just about right. Sorry to any of you that might be injured or hurt by such a thing.

[Mirgos]

Re: Dinosaur Planet

 

No problem - one question was the Dinosaur Planet concept inspired by the Anne McCaffrey novels of the same name?

[Savinien]

Re: Dinosaur Planet

 

No problem - one question was the Dinosaur Planet concept inspired by the Anne McCaffrey novels of the same name?

 

No. I don't believe so. It came about because I wanted to do sci-fi, but I'm not very tech inclined. So, I wanted to be able to control exactly what could be done with good story reasoning.

 

More inspired by John Carter, I guess.