Null Characteristics replaced by negative CHAR rules?

[Grail Quest]

I vaguely remember that, way back, the HERO Almanac 1 had rules for null stats. I don't have access to that anymore, so I can't look up those rules.

 

Were those wholly and adequately replaced by the existing rules for very low or negative Characteristics, as discussed in the HERO System Rulebook?

 

Say, for example, you are an intelligence bound to a crystal ball. You have no physical movement except when carried, but you can still act. You cannot manipulate anything since you have no limbs per se, so you really have a null STR. And as a crystal ball, you may have a BODY value, but being inorganic and what not, you really have no CON per se.

How would you stat this?

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Null Characteristics replaced by negative CHAR rules?

 

I vaguely remember that, way back, the HERO Almanac 1 had rules for null stats. I don't have access to that anymore, so I can't look up those rules.

 

Were those wholly and adequately replaced by the existing rules for very low or negative Characteristics, as discussed in the HERO System Rulebook?

 

Say, for example, you are an intelligence bound to a crystal ball. You have no physical movement except when carried, but you can still act. You cannot manipulate anything since you have no limbs per se, so you really have a null STR. And as a crystal ball, you may have a BODY value, but being inorganic and what not, you really have no CON per se.

How would you stat this?

 

I would build the character in question as an AI Computer.

 

Hawksmoor

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Null Characteristics replaced by negative CHAR rules?

 

I think you're memory is being a bit tricky with you.

 

HSA1 did not have rules for "null" stats... it had rules for negative stats. And they were very similar to what's currently in the core rulebook.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Null Characteristics replaced by negative CHAR rules?

 

...and the popular answer has become to use Physical Disadvantages.

[Grail Quest]

Re: Null Characteristics replaced by negative CHAR rules?

 

I would build the character in question as an AI Computer.

 

Hawksmoor

 

The AI portion can, but what about the crystal ball "body"? Computers in HERO are tied to something else, like a base or vehicle, or possibly someone's focus. I suppose I could declare a vehicle with no movement powers, but:

 

(a) It still has a STR score, which it shouldn't have at all. How much am I allowed to buy it down? Is a null STR worth only a 25-point Physical Limitation? (Very Common, All the Time)

 

( It sets a dangerous precedent. Suppose everyone declared they were vehicles with AIs, and they happen to be suspiciously fleshy and human-like. So much so that they are -- surprise! -- identical to humans!

Personally, I don't like the idea of vehicles being separate anyway. Why are horses defined with one set of rules, but motorcycles with another? I rather prefer pasting on Automaton Powers.

[Grail Quest]

Re: Null Characteristics replaced by negative CHAR rules?

 

I think you're memory is being a bit tricky with you.

 

HSA1 did not have rules for "null" stats... it had rules for negative stats. And they were very similar to what's currently in the core rulebook.

 

Maybe.

 

Which supplement was it that had ghosts? I thought that was the one that has null STR and null CON.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Null Characteristics replaced by negative CHAR rules?

 

Personally' date=' I don't like the idea of vehicles being separate anyway. Why are horses defined with one set of rules, but motorcycles with another? I rather prefer pasting on Automaton Powers.[/quote']

 

Ah!

 

Nice to know my group wasn't alone in that; we never did like the vehicle rules either, even way back when. It just seemed odd to us that here is the perfect universal system to create _anything_..... except cars. You'll need to use this whole other set of rules to make cars.

 

The only part of the vehicle rules we kept were the points/5 cost. Other than that, vehicles were built as characters, buying up relevant stats from base values of zero. It's worked for us for many years, and probably always will.

 

Well, with one possible problem, but the vehicle rules don't really seem to help much either. Anyway, that's for another day.

 

If I'm not mistaken, the supplement to which you are refering was Horror Hero, and I am currently hunting up my copy to check that null stat thing for you. Bear with me; we've been packing for a move to a new house up country......

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Null Characteristics replaced by negative CHAR rules?

 

Ah; here it is:

 

Spirits:

 

"Spirits have INT, DEX, EGO, PRE, and SPD; they do not and can not have[emphasis added] STR, CON, BODY, COM, PD, ED, REC, END, or STUN. Spirits are completely intangible; this is similar to being Desolid, but with completely different special effects. Powers bought with Affects Desolid will not affect spirits; Desolid characters cannot perceive or affect spirits and vice-versa. Spirits are completely invisible to all normal senses and detects [sorry-- quick question: exactly what is a "normal" detect? I've always wondered.....]; specific senses and detects that can find spirits are listed later in this section. Spirits can have powers that affect other spirits or they may buy (at extra cost) powers that affect the real world."

 

And there's more, but I think this is already more than you wanted to know about Spirits, considering the nature of your question.

 

None of the text in that section really goes into the details of the 'null stats.' The Disadvantages section also fails to mention it, as do the Character Archetypes, or even Powers sections.

 

Now the section with the Example Beasties is rather interesting; there are a few examples of spirits, and all are built as described above: none of the 'forbidden' stats, not even a zero or a negative. However, points are not sold back to the player or the template. These stats simply do not exist, period. Characteristics cost is based on the total cost of raising the 'allowed' stats from base 10. Also, none of the examples have any Disads that represent their lack of physical prowess.

 

I hope this helps you some.

 

From what I can make of it, however, I don't think I'd build your crystal-with-a-mind as a spirit, however, for he will have no actual way to even be carried without extensive powers constructs. However, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with simply 'nulling' a stat, as long as you

 

1) do not try to reclaim "lost" points by selling back the stat.

2) buy up any figured Characteristic that you _will_ have from base 0 rather than figuring it from the 'nulled' Characteristic.

 

On the first point, I can understand that. Those base 10 were 'gimmes' anyway, so technically, you have not 'lost' anything; you have simply failed to take advantage of the offer . :wink: And on the second point, well I guess that's a no-brainer, what with not having the base stat to work from.....

 

 

Personally, I'm glad you asked this! It gave me incentive to dig through the old stuff again with an eye for stuff I haven't used in a bit. In the critter pages, I found an example of a cursed sword, done on a character sheet, essentially as a spirit. Now I have a nifty way to create that 'enchanted with the spirit of my grandfather' sword one of my fantasy players has been after me to write up (so far, it's been fiat). I just need to figure out why the sword in the book needs Dex and SPD and how that would work when the sword was used as a weapon...

 

Though thinking about it, I'm not sure it really would. I assume that those stats are for the swords 'speaking' roles. Of course, my player's sword has some minor Telepathic abilities.... _That's_ probably what that stuff is for......

 

 

Thanks again!

[Grail Quest]

Re: Null Characteristics replaced by negative CHAR rules?

 

"Spirits have INT' date=' DEX, EGO, PRE, and SPD; they do not and [b']can not have[/b][emphasis added] STR, CON, BODY, COM, PD, ED, REC, END, or STUN. Spirits are completely intangible; this is similar to being Desolid, but with completely different special effects.

 

Yeah--this is what I was thinking of!

 

Looking at the text you've quoted, it looks like they've basically allowed disembodied AI Computers to be "spirits".

 

I think all I really need to do for a character without personal mobility, such as a sword or focus or whatever, is buy down STR to 0 in addition to taking a 25-point Physical Limitation for having null STR. Then use Automaton Powers for the body if it needs to be essentially an automaton, albeit one that can't move.

Of course, someone will have the carry around the object-character, but that's not the issue here.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Null Characteristics replaced by negative CHAR rules?

 

Hey---

glad I could help!