Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

[Old Man]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

No, STR is overpowered in Fantasy Hero because it directly determines your attack damage and rPD. It is so cheap that even the mages typically run around at 15 STR because they can get +2 DC and 2-3 rPD for just 5 points. No figured helps, but I don't think it's enough. I'm sure someone will disagree, though.

[Hierax]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

How do you get rPD for STR? and +5 STR is only +1 DC.

[Old Man]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

Because in 5th ed FH, your encumbrance penalty for armor depends on STR, and when using weapons with STR Mins, you can usually go up 2DC for +5 or +6 STR.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

Whenever I wonder if STR is costed to cheaply I ask myself "Would it be worth it at twice the price?" And since the answer is always "Yes" or "A bit less than this' date=' yeah" I don't really have a problem with it. Personally, I'd like to see all the stats costed to 2/+1, but I'm not sure how you'd go about it.[list']

[*]STR would work out easily,

[*]DEX I'd do by divorcing SPD, or making SPD figured as (INT/10)+(DEX/10) and finding something else to cut off

[*]CON is only a smidge off IIRC,

[*]BODY I've never quite gotten the reasoning for, unless it's that 1/+1 is too cheap

[*]INT I really can't see a "legit" way to make worth 2/+1; it's got all you could reasonably put into that basket

[*]EGO is already there, but isn't worth it, IMO; add MDef to the figureds and it would be worth 2/+1, or at least closer to

[*]PRE needs something more, just like INT; maybe open up some sort of "force of personality" combat sphere and you could do something

[*]COM would have to have an actual value in the first place, sadly; I could see doing something similar to PRE as far as first meetings and such, but I don't know.

Maybe I should start a new thread on this topic. Hmmm....

Although I am usually against the idea of decoupling Figured Characteristics for some reason, a while back I posted the idea (somewhere in the Rules Discussion forums; no idea where other than that) of divorcing them entirely, by doing something like this (my original was probably more thorougly thought out; I'm just going on what I recall of it):

• All Primary Characteristics cost 1 per point.
  
• HTH Damage is not calculated from Str but instead starts at 2d6 and costs 5/d6 (3 for an extra 1/2d6). Str still does determing lifting capacity (and Encumberance) and, if you like this part, base Leaping.
  
• OCV and DCV are not calculated from Dex. Instead they start at 3 each and cost 5 to increase (each!). This eliminates the necessity for DCV CSLs, which can now be bought a little cheaper as +1 DCV which is Non-Persistant (-1/4). Dive for Cover is still based on a Dex roll, as are Agility Skills.
  
• OECV and DECV are not calculated and work exactly like OCV and DCV. Ego is still used to resist Pre Attacks, Mental Powers, Psych. Lims etc. Mental Defense no longer gains a bonus from Ego.
  
• Figured Characteristics have their standard costs but start at the same values they would in the standard system if all Primary Characteristics have the value 10 (PD 2, ED 2, Spd 2, Rec 4, End 20, Stun 20).
  
• All other properties of characteristics (Con for Stunning; Dex, Int, and Pre for Skills; etc.) work as normal.
  
• EDIT: Oh, and in Heroic games HTH Damage, OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV all have NCM equal to the values they would have if their normal Primary Characteristics were 20: 4 for HTH Damage; 7 for OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV.
  
• EDIT: Ah, and another: Instead of being based on Int, Perception starts at 11- and is bought up by the usual means (the costs under Enhanced Senses).

It has a certain appeal, and reduces any, "real-world SFX," that lead to links between things like Str and PD (also the current coupling between lifting capability and damage, which some people dislike--though I don't mind). It also eliminates the issue of selling back Figured Characteristics.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

Wow! I sure killed this thread!

 

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

Whenever I wonder if STR is costed to cheaply I ask myself "Would it be worth it at twice the price?" And since the answer is always "Yes" or "A bit less than this' date=' yeah" I don't really have a problem with it. Personally, I'd like to see all the stats costed to 2/+1, but I'm not sure how you'd go about it.[list']

[*]STR would work out easily,

[*]DEX I'd do by divorcing SPD, or making SPD figured as (INT/10)+(DEX/10) and finding something else to cut off

[*]CON is only a smidge off IIRC,

[*]BODY I've never quite gotten the reasoning for, unless it's that 1/+1 is too cheap

[*]INT I really can't see a "legit" way to make worth 2/+1; it's got all you could reasonably put into that basket

[*]EGO is already there, but isn't worth it, IMO; add MDef to the figureds and it would be worth 2/+1, or at least closer to

[*]PRE needs something more, just like INT; maybe open up some sort of "force of personality" combat sphere and you could do something

[*]COM would have to have an actual value in the first place, sadly; I could see doing something similar to PRE as far as first meetings and such, but I don't know.

Maybe I should start a new thread on this topic. Hmmm....

 

STR = Just Done

DEX = decoupled

INT = Attach SPD. That's right. Instead of (1+ DEX/10), (1+INT/10).

 

Others = 2pts already

 

Rolling PRE and COM into one stat is an interesting option (perhaps making COM a figured stat of PRE, so it can be bought up and down independently?).

 

Actually, yes, that is my solution. COM = PRE, 1/2 pt for +1/-1. PRE = 2pts/1

 

Simple, elegant, done.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

Even at 2 points per, Strength is a pretty good buy. Even without the figured and the ‘wear heavy armor’ sides, it’s so much more flexible then any other single attack power.

 

I mean, seriously. If you grab, it’s a limited entangle with a damage shield. If you have a rock, it’s an EB with a couple of limitations. If you have a pointy stick, it’s a KA. If you have a BIG stick, it’s an AOE attack. It can bust you out of grabs and entangles without arguing with the GM first. It’s a floor wax. It’s a dessert topping.

 

Plus, it’s lockpicking.

 

The only argument against upping the cost that has any real merit is the ‘But bricks can’t take Power Frameworks!’

 

Well, it has merit in supers games. (Well, except for the fact that a lot of bricks DO have power frameworks . . .) But in most Heroic games, no one can take power frameworks anyway, so no problems there.

 

---

Basing SPD on Int instead of Dex is a good idea, especially if you assume Spd is ‘Reflexes.’ The only reason I haven’t is I’m trying to get my chops back before I start messing with everything.

 

Actually, I’d change it’s name to ‘Perception’ and using it for Initiative, as well as Speed. Have Int skills work off of skill levels instead of a true stat. That’s worth one point, easy.

 

That would also stop Int ‘bragging rights’ wars.

 

To make it worth 2 points, do something with ranged attacks. Either acting as ‘free’ Ranged Skill Levels, a bonus for Brace and Set, or an alternate ‘OCV’ for braced attacks.

 

---

As Hero slowly turns into Fallout . . . Well, the parts of Fallout that D&D didn’t rip off, anyway.

[DreadDomain]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

Whenever I wonder if STR is costed to cheaply I ask myself "Would it be worth it at twice the price?" And since the answer is always "Yes" or "A bit less than this' date=' yeah" I don't really have a problem with it. Personally, I'd like to see all the stats costed to 2/+1, but I'm not sure how you'd go about it[/quote']

 

Oh! one of my favorite topics. You see, if there is one thing I was disappointed with Hero 5 is the lack of change to the characteristics. I would have preferred better balanced characteristics in general as well as less breakpoints in efficiency (0, 3, 5, 8). I would also have considered making CV and skills at the same scale (either both based on char/3 or char/5). Looking in my files, I found some playing around I have done with the characteristics. My goals were :

 

• Keep pretty much the same characteristics so I could use easily the published characters (only their cost would change)
  
• Make all the characteristics cost 2 pts per level
  

 

I ended up with something like this :

 

Primary Characteristics

All would start at 10 (average human at 8), have a NCM at 20 and an absolute "realistic" maxima at 30 (no more Int up to 50). The cost for all primary characteristics is 2 points per level.

 

• Strength
  
• Dexterity
  
• Constitution
  
• Presence
  
• Intelligence (although the name could be changed to better represent what it really means)
  
• Ego
  

 

As you can see, Body and Comliness have disappeared from the primary. These were the two odd characteristics anyway and have moved to the secondary characteristics.

 

Secondary (or Figured) Characteristics

• Physical Defense (1 point) : Str/5
  
• Energy Defense (1 point) : Con/5
  
• Mental Defense (1 point) : Ego/5
  
• Speed (10 points) : 1+ (Dex+Int)/20
  
• Recovery (2 points) : (Con+Ego)/5
  
• Endurance (1 point because I hate half points) : Con+Ego
  
• Stun (1 point) : (Str+Con+Pre+Ego)/2
  
• Body (2 points) : 8+(Str/5)
  
• Com (1 point because I hate half points) : 8+(Pre/5)
  

 

All have average, NCM and absolute maxima as per Hero 5. I also used formulas like (Con+Ego)/5 instead of ((Con/5)+(Ego/5)) because then having Con 12 means something when you have Ego 11. I also considered merging PD and ED to create Physical Defense at Con/5.

 

Just to convince myself, I tried to roughly evaluate the worth of every characteristics by asking myself how many points of benefits would every +10 in the char would bring. To my surprise, it seems like the characteristics were worth closer to 3 points per level. Dex and Ego (because of the cost of CV were the less balanced). Here goes :

 

 

Strength +10

• Effect (Lift, Casual STR) : 5 points (guesstimate)
  
• Damage +2d6 : 10 points
  
• Roll +2 : 4 points
  
• Jump +2: 2 points
  
• PD +2 : 2 points
  
• Stun +5 : 5 points
  
• Body +2 : 4 points
  

Total worth : 32 points

 

Dexterity +10

• Effect (Initiative +10) : 15 points (according to Hero 5 but I find this overpriced)
  
• DCV +3 : 15 points
  
• OCV +3 (No Mental -1/4) : 18 points
  
• Roll +2 : 4 points
  
• Skills +2 : 10 points
  
• Speed +0,5 : 5 points
  

Total worth : 67 points

 

Constitution +10

• Effect (resist Stun) :5 points (guesstimate)
  
• Roll +2 : 4 points
  
• Recovery +2 : 4 points
  
• Endurance +10 : 10 points
  
• ED +2 : 2 points
  
• Stun +5: 5 points
  

Total worth : 30 points

 

Presence +10

• Effect (Resist Pre attacks) : 3 points (guesstimate)
  
• Presence Attack +2d6 : 10 points
  
• Roll +2 (rarely used) : 0 point
  
• Skills+2 : 10 points
  
• Stun +5 : 5 points
  
• Com +2 : 2 points
  

Total worth : 30 points

 

Intelligence +10

• Effect (none) : 0 point
  
• Roll +2 : 4 points
  
• Skills +2 :10 points
  
• Perception +2 : 6 points
  
• Speed +0,5 : 5 points
  

Total worth : 25 points

 

Ego +10

• Effect (Resist Pre/Men att) : 5 points (guesstimate)
  
• Roll +2 : 4 points
  
• ECV +3 : 15 points
  
• MD +2 : 2 points
  
• Recovery +2 : 4 points
  
• Endurance +10 : 10 points
  
• Stun +5 : 5 points
  

Total worth : 45 points

 

What do you think about all this?

[DreadDomain]

Re: Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

 

Right now, I'm under the opinion that Strength should be increased to 2pts and I will be making the END cost be on a per 5pt basis. Do you think this might be a bit harsh?

 

Using the characteristics as is, I also think Strength should be increased at 2 points per level in a Heroic game. I might even do it in a Superheroic game but I would be much more hesitant.