Another question on aid...

[wowie]

Point monkey... *grin* I know it can be very scary... but humor me a bit..

 

anyway.. few questions on aid

 

I built an aid like this:

 

Aid 2d6, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1/4), any [special effect] power one at a time (+1/4), Time Delay (+1/4), Delayed Effect (+1/4) (20 Active Points)

 

1. Since it has a variable effect, does it mean i can apply it to anything?

 

2. Can I apply it to itself? allowing it to stack on its own so to speak?

 

3. Since it has Time Delay and Delayed Effect, can i give it for example 1min. and keep it at ready for however long a time? say the rest of the day?

 

4. So it should work something like this.. say the character in question has spd 4. making it 4 phases in a turn. there should be 5 turns a minute (60/12=5). that would roughly give 20 phases. 2d6 aid roughly 5 points at standard rate.. say in 2 phases the char moves that gives him an additional 10points, increasing aid to 3d6. next 2 phases add 15points that would give aid the boost 4d6 points total in 1 turn (total 45 points). next turn would grant 50 points making aid roughly around 9d6 (total 95points) next turn would grant... until the end of the first minute I would have a total of 1055 points giving me roughly 105d6 of aid points to distribute if my computations is correct... then again i may roll all 1s despite that and after all that i'd get roughly 4d6 in a minute.

 

5. will it work?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Another question on aid...

 

First: You calculated your power incorrectly.

 

Your power is 40 Active Points, not 20.

 

1. Anything with the correct specified Special Effect

 

2. yes, 5ER page 105, second paragraph on the right, also states the GM should probably disallow it.

 

3. Time Delay and Delayed Effect do squat for you on this power. Time Delay is useful only in that you can set up the power X-Time beforehand. Delayed Effect only helps if the power isn't instant or has Setup Limitations (Incantations, etc..) or you have a limit to the number of Active Powers you can have in a game.

 

4. Maximum Effect of your AID is 12pts. = 1/2D6 of Aid (assuming the GM let's you buy a 1/2D6) thus increasing the AID to 2.5D6 for a maximum effect of 15pts. If the GM is nice and lets 15AP add a full D6 you're at 3D6 now, increasing to 18 Maximum Effect. Adding 1Die to your AID, 4D6 for a max of 24AP, adding one more die to 5D6. I'm not going to bother doing the math on how an Average Roll/Phase would increase this.

 

5. Not in any game where a GM has any sense. For the following 2 reasons:

a) It's potentially unbalacing to a stupid degree - i.e. Point Monkey

Given a 1 Min Fade, unless you have time before a combat you know about you'll spend most of the comabt itself building up your AID.

[wowie]

Re: Another question on aid...

 

this is what you get after drinking tequila all day and nothing much else.. point taken. I just wanted a stab at it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Another question on aid...

 

Is cool ... attempting to break a system is a good way to know how best to use a system. Power Game responsibly.

[pointyman2000]

Re: Another question on aid...

 

Thanks for the concise and accurate response ghost-angel, was just thinking of how to explain the exact same thing to one of my players.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Another question on aid...

 

Welcome to one of our newer and younger members

 

Point monkey see, point monkey do…..

 

2d6 aid delay fade to 1 minute (say) and variable effect (one at a time AID and EB – sfx is you generate energy you can either store or project) total advantage +1/2 or 30 active points.

 

Say you have a 2d6 EB, but you’ve actually spent 11 points in it not 10. You’ll see why later.

 

Now the maximum effect is 12 points.

 

Phase 1st roll +7 point or 37 active points in all: so 2½d6, max pool 15

 

Phase 2nd roll +9 (but maxes out at 15 so we now have 3d6)

 

Phase 3rd roll +10 (but maxes out at 18, still 3d6)

 

Phase 4th and on….we are at maximum. Bah. Ghost-angel right, no good…..

 

Point monkey think, point monkey do…..

 

Now divert the effect of AID to the POOL, not the power….

 

Phase 1st roll of 7, pool 26, AID still 2d6

 

Phase 2nd switch to AID EB and roll 7

 

Phase 3rd roll 7 (14 in EB)

 

Phase 4th roll 7 (21 in EB)

 

Now if you are speed 4 you can repeat this every turn, and by the end of the minute (when the fade starts to kick in) you will have got up to a 20d6 EB. Yes, there is no theoretical maximum, and you could keep going forever: you’ll always be ahead of the fade rate. OTOH you will have taken a whole minute getting there, which is only of any use if you know some time in advance that combat is going to happen, AND you really ought to buy that EB at 0 END, or you’ll never have the END to use it….so that is in fact a 13d6 EB, for a minute of effort.

 

You can be astonishingly powerful, if you have the time to prepare: basically you can add +18d6 per minute of charging up (or +12d6 at 0 END). I mean, sit there for an hour and charge up and you can knock planets out of orbit (or at least blow a hole through a good sized planet), but the chap who sneaks up behind you with a blackjack while you are doing it is going to win every time J

[ghost-angel]

Re: Another question on aid...

 

I'm not sure what you're doing there Sean ... a 2D6 AID can only ever give 12AP to a Power ... I'm not seeing a step you have there to ever add more than 2 Dice to that EB.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Another question on aid...

 

I'm not sure what you're doing there Sean ... a 2D6 AID can only ever give 12AP to a Power ... I'm not seeing a step you have there to ever add more than 2 Dice to that EB.

 

If the Aid power itself has been Aided by a further 2d6 AP, doesn't its maximum also rise by 12 points, such that it is now a 4d6 Aid, capable of adding as much as 24 points to the EB (and to itself)?

 

Using Sean's 2d6, 30 AP example, the first 2d6 can add 12 AP to the Aid, so now it's 42 AP (just below 3d6 - say 2.5 d6). Now it can add 15 points in aggregate, that brings us to 45 AP, or 3d6. 3d6 adds up to 18 AP, so when we get there, we have a 48 AP Aid (at best, 3d6+1 Aid with a +1/2 advantage - going to a 49 point max won't add anything).

 

With that 3d6+1 Aid, I can add 19 AP to the EB. I don't see how Sean gets a theoreticaly unlimited Aid unless he's Aiding only "+2 points aided per CP".

[ghost-angel]

Re: Another question on aid...

 

Yeah - it was the theoretical unlimited AID and 20D6 EB I was trying to get to...

[Gummibear]

Re: Another question on aid...

 

Time for a chime in...

 

Aid can not aid itself. It can aid another aid, but not itself. At least not in any rational game. GhostAngel and I have had this discussion at length and it is possible to get a couple of aids feeding each other. But not just the one. IF you have just one it only feeds one other power or other stat, etc.

 

There is not limitation of someone having this thing up and running all the time. Why not if you either

a. Purchased the Aid at 0 end

b. Made the aid feed an aid and your end.

 

However there is still the issue of a GM allowing this to get by. IF anyone can do that then let me know. I would love to get into their game so that I can bring in Fusion Battery Man.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33537&page=3&highlight=gummibear

 

Simply set one of your aids to feed a VPP(if the GM allows self-feeding aids then surely he'll allow you to feed a VPP). Start the game, tell the GM you are activating your power. Wait the requisite couple minutes game time to get to a sufficiently ridiculous number. Bask in the glow of your omnipotence.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Another question on aid...

 

At the GMs discretion, a character can create an Absorption, Aid, or Transfer power which specifies that some or all of the Character Points received go to improve the effectiveness of the Adjustment Power itself.

Yes, AID can AID itself assuming your GM allows it. There's no Rule specifically restrincting it doing so - just common sense.

 

AID is already a 0END Power.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Another question on aid...

 

OK, I may well have this wrong, but the AID can add 12 character points to a power maximum UNLESS you increase the maximum effect. With the aid increasing the maximum effect (not the aid itself: the rate of increase never changes, just the maximum the power can boost), so if a 2d6 aid aids itself it it can add up to 12 character points to its own maximum books, that is an additional 24 points it can store, so it can now aid itself by up to 12+24=36 points.

 

So far, so pointless BUT with the aid bought with the variable effect advantage that same power can also be used to aid something else (in this instance the EB) by up to 36 points (albeit at only 2d6 per use): with the power as built this means you can increase the pool size, and the EB practically forever.

 

Basically if you buy 2d6 aid to EB and spend an additional 12 character points on maximum effect, you can aid (in 2d6 point increments) the EB up to 36 points, or a little over 7 dice. This just takes that idea a little further, with the feedback option.

 

Now this method DOES NOT WORK WELL if you use the rule that you have to track every single use of the aid power individually and each use loses 5 character points after the allotted time has elapsed, but that is far too much work and I ignore it. Even if you did do that, it would be easy enough to get around, and the effect still allows practically infinite increase in power, it just makes it slower.

 

I am not aware of any rule that says that an aid can not aid itself, except possibly that one about common sense applying.

 

Just to be clear, I am not advocating anyone take or use this construction: it is slow and silly, and, on the rare occasions when you actually got to properly power up before a combat, utterly unbalancing. I'm just saying it can be done. I'm being point monkey.

 

BTW you can (if you can be bothered) increase both the actual aid and the maximum effect and the EB simultaneously, which would give you more of an exponential rate of growth for the power. See the preceeding paragraph though.....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Another question on aid...

 

Mind you I can see a sort of rationalle for the power: nuclear man withdraws his own control rods, building up a massive amount of power he can unleash in bolts of ravenning (I love that word) energy and destruction - the build up is the aid to aid, the EB is just the varaible effect cutting in....

 

Hmm.

 

In fact, but an EB for 1 point, and a END reserve for 1 point (10 END, no REC) and have the aid with +1/2 variable effect (2 simultaneously) feeding two effects:

 

1. Aid and maximum effect (half and half), and

2. EB and END reserve (10:1)

 

That way the aid increases, and the pool increses to the increase becomes exponential, and the EB increases with with the END reserve keeping track with just enough power for a single shot at maximum intensity (then you'd have to start from scrathc again).

 

Wouldn't let it near a player, but it would make an excellent villain.....

[ghost-angel]

Re: Another question on aid...

 

Maximum Affect can be +2/1pts .. Applied before Advantages, with the Advantages on our example aid it's +4/3pts (1.5 pts per +2.. fractions catch up quickly). So with 12pts, you can add up to 16pts to the Maximum Effect of the AID.

 

Oddly ... I can't find a reference if there is a maximum to which you could use the Increased Maximum Effect Adder, though I thought it was double.

 

Scary - you can make a small AID with no Ceiling.

 

Power On: AID 1D6, +2pts Max Effect Adder; 11 AP. AID: Maximum Effect Adder.

 

Pg107 states you can do that with GM Permission, at worst a GM would require the "Can Add/Increase/Remove Adders" Advantage.

 

hmmm...... evil.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Another question on aid...

 

Hi, I'm GOD.: Aid Increased Maximum of AID 1d6, Can Add Maximum Of 8 Points, any [special effect] power one at a time (+1/4), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Hour; +1), Can Apply (Remove) Adders (+1) (36 Active Points) 68 Active Points

 

For every 3.25 poitns you AID you add +2 to the Maximum...

initial: 14pts Max = +8 pts to Max

next: 22pts Max = +4 pts to Max

next: 26pts Max = +4 pts to Max

next: 30pts Max = +2 pts to Max

next: 32pts Max = +2 pts to Max

...

 

Law of diminishing returns starts to kick in thankfully. But still .. evil.

Assuming my hurried math is correct of course.

 

better example:

Hi, I'm GOD 2: Aid Any Cosmoid Power 1d6, Can Add Maximum Of 39 Points, any [special effect] power one at a time (+1/4), Can Apply (Remove) Adders (+1) (60 Active Points)

 

Adjust the Max Eff Adder at +2 / 2.25 pts Aided or factoring fractions: +8pts for every 9pts you AID.

First maximum AID 45pts and adds 40Points to the Maximum effect.

I'm not doing the math to figure the increase vs Fade Rate on that, but I'm sure it's not nice.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Another question on aid...

 

Hi' date=' I'm GOD.: Aid Increased Maximum of AID 1d6, Can Add Maximum Of 8 Points, any [special effect'] power one at a time (+1/4), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Hour; +1), Can Apply (Remove) Adders (+1) (36 Active Points) 68 Active Points

 

For every 3.25 poitns you AID you add +2 to the Maximum...

initial: 14pts Max = +8 pts to Max

next: 22pts Max = +4 pts to Max

next: 26pts Max = +4 pts to Max

next: 30pts Max = +2 pts to Max

next: 32pts Max = +2 pts to Max

...

 

Law of diminishing returns starts to kick in thankfully. But still .. evil.

Assuming my hurried math is correct of course.

 

Well increase the fade rate a bit and that 'can apply to adders' may not be necessary if it is ONLY applying to an adder, and technically it is only needed to add adders you don't already have.... That would make the cost (assuming fade at 5/20 minutes) only advantaged to +1, or, in effect, each point of aid would increase the maximum effect by 1 point: OK you are quite right I was adding the points too quickly (forgot about advantages having to increase the cost of the adders: forget my head next.....), but on this construction, you can keep going forever.....costs 20 points.....

[Gummibear]

Re: Another question on aid...

 

And that would be why in my point munchkin days every character I built had a 1/2d6 Aid to all Stats with SFX

Aid was definitely the "broken power" in Hero 4th, and I don't think that there is anything to be done about fixing it. We can increase the cost dramatically, but it will still allow for someone to build the fusion battery that not only keeps them alive but boosts them beyond your wildest imagination.

 

I don't know, I can imagine quite a bit.