Drain Frame

[Sean Waters]

Did you know - I didn't - that if you have a MP with (say) 4 ultra slots and a 60 point pool, to drain the jolly old MP, at least if you are using a drain that only effects one thing at once, you will have to drain the full active points of each slot. 240 points, thank you very much.

 

Ex-squeeze me?

 

Now I appreciate alternative strategies might be more complex, and the whole sfx think might get a bit convoluted at times, but it seems to me that buying a MP is a fair alternative to buying power defence, especially if you are smart and define each slot with different sfx: there doesn't seem to be any requirement of common sfx in a MP. You are getting very good point utility from a MP already, getting access to a range of powers for very little points investment.

 

Other stuff you might not have realised about MPs:

 

You can buy an advantage on the pool that the applies to all the slots without having to increase the slot cost. An example given in the book is 'personal immunity', although it does say you should be careful allowing this.

 

If you buy each slot with limitations, say OAF, and the pool with OAF too, and define it as a bunch of guns that you can only fire one at once, each gun can be individually taken away individually -thus devaluing the limitation but getting you the same saving because to do otherwise would be 'illogical'. When has that ever mattered?

 

Also you can apply a limitation to the cost of the pool to reflect difficulties in changing the slots around, so, for instance, if it takes an extra phase to change slots on a MP that is worth -3/4, so you could build this:

 

Fire and Ice gun:

60 point MP (takes an extra phase to convert from one slot to the other (-3/4) Costs 34 points

6 uSlot 1 Fire blast 12d6 EB

6 uSlot 2 Ice sheet 6d6 Entangle

 

So for 46 points you get a 12d6 EB that can (with a little time) be used as a 6d6 entangle. Seems pretty pointless spending a whole 60 points on just a 12d6 EB, so long as you are not stupid enough to change half way through combat.

 

Now maybe I'm just not seeing the point here, but it seems to me that someone needs to have a long hard look at the rules that seem to make abuse of this framework practically mandatory.

 

Before someone mentions 'that is what GMs are for'. No, it is not. GMs are there to let you get away with stuff if it makes sense and is not abusive, not reign you in if the rules make no sense and ARE abusive.

 

Thoughts?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Drain Frame

 

Also you can apply a limitation to the cost of the pool to reflect difficulties in changing the slots around, so, for instance, if it takes an extra phase to change slots on a MP that is worth -3/4, so you could build this:

 

Fire and Ice gun:

60 point MP (takes an extra phase to convert from one slot to the other (-3/4) Costs 34 points

6 uSlot 1 Fire blast 12d6 EB

6 uSlot 2 Ice sheet 6d6 Entangle

 

So for 46 points you get a 12d6 EB that can (with a little time) be used as a 6d6 entangle. Seems pretty pointless spending a whole 60 points on just a 12d6 EB, so long as you are not stupid enough to change half way through combat.

 

I would only alow such a structure on the basis that each of the slots has the same limitation as the pool (in this case, Extra Phase to activate). That would mean each shot of either power takes an extra phase.

 

Alternatively, you could halve the limitation and make it Extra Phase, only to activate. You could then take an extra phase to activate the EB, after which you may fire it to your heart's content in the usual half phase time. If you choose to swap to Entangle, it will take an extra phase to activate.

 

With a limitation of this nature, I would generally assume your Multipower is "off" at the start of combat - whatever you choose to activate first will require an extra phase.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Drain Frame

 

Sean, I notice that you left "OAF Gun (-1)" off your example.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Drain Frame

 

Also you can apply a limitation to the cost of the pool to reflect difficulties in changing the slots around' date=' ...[/quote']

NOOOOOOO!!!!

 

Does it actually allow this in 5ER? Does it actually say this is an allowable construct? What page? If so, take a black magic marker and CROSS IT OUT!

 

Do a search on "Slot Switching Limitations". I don't have time to look for the thread right now, but there was a long and heated discussion about this very thing. It is flat out wrong! If Steve Long said it was OK, then he is flat out WRONG! I don't want to have to rehash the whole argument now. You pointed out the basic reason why it is wrong yourself: You can get a 60 point power for less than 60 points. What if it takes a year to switch slots? can you take a -2 (or more) limitation on the pool?

 

60 Base Pool, One Year to Switch (-2). Real points: 20

6u 12d6 EB

6u Some other 60-point power which you don't intend to ever use.

Total: 32 Points for a 60 Point Power!

 

If I have time, I'll track down the thread where I gave the step-by-step logical argument showing why this is a monumentally bad idea. Or someone else could do it for me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Drain Frame

 

Hugh, I agree, but 5ER 320 makes it clear enough to my reading that my build is officially sanctioned, desperately wrog as it clearly is. it talks of limitations on the pool to model limitations on 'distributing the point' - NOT on using the slots (which would then be built with the limitation on pool and slots).

 

Dr A you are quite right. Bad Sean, sit in the corner (if you did add in OAF the MP would still be cheaper but only by 2 points). Still.....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Drain Frame

 

NOOOOOOO!!!!

 

Does it actually allow this in 5ER? Does it actually say this is an allowable construct? What page? If so, take a black magic marker and CROSS IT OUT!

 

Do a search on "Slot Switching Limitations". I don't have time to look for the thread right now, but there was a long and heated discussion about this very thing. It is flat out wrong! If Steve Long said it was OK, then he is flat out WRONG! I don't want to have to rehash the whole argument now. You pointed out the basic reason why it is wrong yourself: You can get a 60 point power for less than 60 points. What if it takes a year to switch slots? can you take a -2 (or more) limitation on the pool?

 

60 Base Pool, One Year to Switch (-2). Real points: 20

6u 12d6 EB

6u Some other 60-point power which you don't intend to ever use.

Total: 32 Points for a 60 Point Power!

 

If I have time, I'll track down the thread where I gave the step-by-step logical argument showing why this is a monumentally bad idea. Or someone else could do it for me.

 

I think we can all agree on that. Phil: I'm not saying it is right, and it would never get past me as a GM, but it seems clear enough that it is 'allowable' under the rules. I'm looking for a marker pen, even as we speak

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Drain Frame

 

I'm looking for a marker pen' date=' even as we speak [/quote']Okay, given all the uses it has, a marking pen is obviously a Multipower in an OAF.

 

What powers does it have, and how many points does it cost?

 

(Assume you'd have to pay points for it, and not get it for 'free' as a Heroic Equipment rule invocation.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Drain Frame

 

Oh now you've done it.

 

I was thinking images but you have the problem with making it permanent/moving out of range, but then I though: ah - no problem, you don't buy a marker per - you buy the ink as an independent focus, and the barrel and nib assembly is just sfx. The ink will always be in range of itself and you can make it 0 END persistent always on. I was going to make it inherent too, but there are things that can supress/drain the images.

 

So: Images, sight, 10 points

 

0 End + 1/2

Persistent + 1/2

 

Total +1: 20 active points

 

Independent -2

OAF -1

 

Limited reserve -1/2 (although the images are permanent there is a limited ability to make new ones)

 

Gestures (throughout creation of image but not to maintain) -1/4

 

Always on (created images can not easily be removed) -1/2

 

Total: -4 1/4: 4 real points

 

PLUS +4 to images roll, limitations as above with RSR -1/2 12 active points

 

Total 4 3/4: 2 active points

 

Total 6 points

 

How does that sound? Nary a ultipower to be seen.

 

The other way I thought of involved transformation, so I thought that might be unncecessarily upsetting....

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Drain Frame

 

You sick monkey.

Nice job.

Me, I don't care what folk think.... I can't think of a more archtypical "Cosmetic Transform" than changing the cosmetic appearance of something by scribbling on it with a marker.

 

I mean, I know some of y'all are Transformophobic, but *sheesh*

Its like avoiding using a cosmetic transform to make cosmetics.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Drain Frame

 

Its like avoiding using a cosmetic transform to make cosmetics.

Actually, wouldn't that more properly be Shapeshift with the "Makeover" Adder, Extra Time, OAF Expendable Cosmetics, and probably a Dex check to boot?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Drain Frame

 

Actually' date=' wouldn't that more properly be Shapeshift with the "Makeover" Adder, Extra Time, OAF Expendable Cosmetics, and probably a Dex check to boot? [/quote']

 

Especially when 'shapeshifting' on a train on the way in to work in the morning

 

Actually I think cosmetics would have to be a MP: shapeshift to apply it to yourself and trannsform so you could dawb it on others.

 

Remind me: how do I get into these conversations?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Drain Frame

 

Actually I think cosmetics would have to be a MP: shapeshift to apply it to yourself and trannsform so you could dawb it on others.

Good point!

Remind me: how do I get into these conversations?

Your life is actually a multipower, and you keep flipping to the "Hero Forums" slot...

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Drain Frame

 

Actually' date=' wouldn't that more properly be Shapeshift with the "Makeover" Adder, Extra Time, OAF Expendable Cosmetics, and probably a Dex check to boot? [/quote']

 

Especially when 'shapeshifting' on a train on the way in to work in the morning

 

Side Effects: Ow, My Eye!

[APE]

Re: Drain Frame

 

My self for the pen I would have gone with darkness;normal sight, area effect; any area, micro hexes; -1/4 per halving of hex size, plus some of the lims that you used, with a nonrecoverable fuel cell. The reason I went with darkness is that the text is easily visible under certain wavelength in the spectrum.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Drain Frame

 

My self for the pen I would have gone with darkness;normal sight' date=' area effect; any area, [b']micro hexes; -1/4 per halving of hex size[/b], plus some of the lims that you used, with a nonrecoverable fuel cell. The reason I went with darkness is that the text is easily visible under certain wavelength in the spectrum.

 

You even propose a nib-size mechanic: I'm impressed:thumbup:

[Sean Waters]

Re: Drain Frame

 

Side Effects: Ow' date=' My Eye![/quote']

 

 

Or '...and now I look like The Joker...'

[Sean Waters]

Re: Drain Frame

 

Good point!

 

Your life is actually a multipower, and you keep flipping to the "Hero Forums" slot...

 

You know, that explains an awful lot. I really wish I hadn't saved all those points with 'no conscious control'.....

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Drain Frame

 

You know' date=' that explains an awful lot. I really wish I hadn't saved all those points with 'no conscious control'.....[/quote']

Actually, I wonder...is it NCC on the power, or is it a Disadvantage? (A type of 'Dependancy' or 'Addiction', y'know. )