Chris Goodwin

Now that you mention it, I may have had a few 8 COM characters but more at 12-16, simply because I had a few points left. I wonder how many of those were balanced by "just one more Disad" where I needed to scrape those points. n

The TV remote that controls other things. Toy versions of vehicles, weapons, animals, and so on, that act like the real things. A cardboard box into a transmogrifying box.

I think fair use allows this screenshot from Champions 3e: Edit: I'm still asserting it has mechanical effects, just that the only mechanical effects it has (as of 4th edition) are effectively Limited PRE.

While Espionage! didn't have them, Justice Inc. and Danger International did, as Weird Talents and Extraordinary Abilities, respectively. The majority of Talents starting in 4th edition were drawn from the lists in those two books, and at least a couple of different Skills from them as well. At least a few from both JI and DI could be described as +X of a Characteristic, Only Vs. Y, or Only For Y. Each level of Resistance (a Skill from DI) is explicitly +1 EGO, only for resisting Interrogation or Hypnosis, for 1 point, while Kiai (the martial arts "yell" used to startle or unnerve an opponent) is +1d6 to offensive Presence Attacks for those purposes for 2 points up to +4d6, where it becomes 4 points per +1d6. Animal Friend from JI is 5 points for the ability for the character to use their PRE against animals, with a special PRE Attack chart allowing characters to turn animals friendly towards them, and +3 points per additional +1d6 to Presence Attacks for these purposes. At least three other Weird Talents from JI are straight up Powers from Champions (Danger Sense, Enhanced Senses, and Missile Deflection), while Immunity is drawn from Life Support and Self Healing is essentially +3 Limited REC (Only For BODY Recovery) plus 1 point of very Limited Regeneration (Regeneration, 1 BODY, Costs END, 10x END Cost, Requires A Roll (EGO Roll), Only Vs. Bleeding and Mortal Wounds). There's no lack of precedent for Talents as situationally Limited Powers, PRE, or other Characteristics.

All right, I see your point. I hadn't thought it completely through. It's been a long few weeks.

I should retract part of my statements. When I said all functions of COM can be replaced by Limited PRE or Striking Appearance, I was incorrect. Edit: Withdrawing Thu statement. I forgot about Distinctive Features. So my statements should be amended to include Distinctive Features. Edit: Withdrawing this statement. I agree with Hugh here.

Neither I nor Hugh, nor anyone else, are saying COM has no mechanical use. We are saying that it has no mechanical use that Limited PRE or Striking Appearance can't be used for instead. And for all nonmechanical uses, you didn't and don't need to spend points on COM.

In the Kennedy-Nixon debates, those who listened to them on the radio thought Nixon won, while those who watched them on TV thought that Kennedy won. This could have meant that Kennedy had 16 COM and 15 PRE while Nixon had 8 COM and 20 PRE, or it could have meant that Kennedy had +2/2d6 Striking Appearance. In fact Nixon might have had Oratorical Presence - +3 Skill Levels with Conversation, Oratory, and Persuasion, along with Distinctive Features: Slightly Homely (noticed and recognizable, moderate reactions).

Please allow myself to quote... myself: I was pretty specific here. You even quoted me. Please allow myself to quote... the book: The words "big and scary" don't appear anywhere in here. "Big and scary" could be SFX for buying a high PRE score, but so could "well spoken and charismatic", or "well dressed and poised". Or even "beautiful, handsome, and/or hot." You didn't include the parenthetical statements stating mechanics in your original post; I went back and checked. 5th edition and revised both define Comeliness' COM rolls as allowing for COM rolls to act as complementary to some Interaction Skills, so yes, I can see this. (Or buy Striking Appearance and you don't have to roll...) But I wasn't disputing that COM Rolls might provide a bonus to Interaction Skills (this is what I meant by "mechanical effects"). Let me quote myself again... (Boldface added just now.) The fact that I'm having to quote myself multiple times leads me to believe you weren't reading my previous messages? In fact this one was in response to your previous statements about conversations and persuasion. Your use of the phrase "sleight of hand" actually did tip me off that you were talking about the mechanics. But again quoting myself, in response to your earlier statement: I never disputed that COM could help in distracting the target of Sleight of Hand, and in fact suggested the mechanic (bog standard Presence Attack) by which you would do so. I never said it did or it was. Let's be honest. We've all known someone who really was "just a pretty face". Someone with lots of COM but no PRE. You could stare at them all day, but as soon as they opened their mouths you wanted to go home immediately. Does this person have "pretty privilege"? How about the pretty introvert, the beautiful woman or handsome man who's afraid to talk? Again, lots of COM but no PRE. But oddly enough, Striking Appearance also doesn't protect you from Presence Attacks. My actual statement was... If COM had never existed in the system, the way you would build the mechanical effects would be Presence built with Limitations. (I've looked at other HERO System game mechanics in this way as well; if Autofire never existed, the way you'd build automatic weapons fire would be additional damage or Area of Effect, for instance.) You can look like whatever you want, as beautiful as you can imagine, for zero points. And that would do nothing at all, for zero points. I know I said this in this thread, but I'm tired going back and quoting myself. Hugh and I were both in SETAC, where Steve talked about, among other things, getting rid of COM. He did talk about how there were some very good arguments for keeping it that almost persuaded him. But his reasoning was: its only mechanical effects are modifying uses of Presence, so it may as well just be modified Presence. Everything you've suggested that a COM roll might do, a Presence Roll can do, would be better suited, and better represents how an attractive person might do those things. Stated in the definitions of COM in 5th edition and revised. Not in dispute. The only situation I can possibly come up with where COM vs. COM would be a factor, excluding Presence, would be if an NPC were comparing two individuals by photographs of their faces. And Striking Appearance would handle this, assuming you're not insisting on a roll... In fact, if I were GMing this situation in an edition that used COM, I wouldn't even have them roll. I'd just compare COM scores straight across. But this situation is such a far out corner case it may as well be in another galaxy. I'm going to make another bold assertion: there is no use of COM that occurs in a vacuum. Every use of COM must include PRE, because without Presence, Comeliness is meaningless. (Just a pretty face, handsome introvert, timid and beautiful.) And in 6th edition, this is easy! Just don't buy PRE, or Striking Appearance, and describe your character as "timid and beautiful" or similar. The story I posted about Marilyn Monroe illustrates this principle exactly, but I assume you didn't read it either. It's well worth reading! (To summarize: a magazine writer and a photographer accompanied Norma Jean Baker around New York City. Making no particular attempt to disguise herself, no one recognized her. She asked her escorts, "Do you want to see her?" She took off her coat, fluffed up her hair, and got into character as Marilyn -- and she was instantly mobbed. Later, the photographer took her to a bar, again as Norma Jean, and the bartender was a little surly with her. Later the barkeep asked the photographer, "Who was that you were with?" "Marilyn Monroe," Ed responds. The barkeep scoffs.) COM is nothing without PRE. Every mechanical effect COM has can be handled by Striking Appearance or PRE with Limitations. Everything nonmechanical is description, Special Effect, and costs no points.

Following up... there's more! I hadn't ever read further. Norma Jeane was plain, unrecognizable. Marilyn Monroe may as well have been a different person!

You've done everything but. I've asked more than once for mechanical effects, and your responses have either been special effects or challenging me on Striking Appearance. Neither of those are answering my question. You told me to imagine a beautiful woman entering a room and capturing everyone's attention, without a single mechanic to explain how it might be done. I explained it as a bog standard Presence Attack using 5er's rules complete with page numbers. (Offering a scenario with no mechanics? You've given special effects.) I've even written out some mechanical effects of COM -- all of which relate to PRE in some way. Can you provide any that don't? I did just reread Bob's article. Bob, if you're still out there and reading this, I have some harsh criticism for it. Fully half of the new Skills and Talents Bob proposes are things like "... exactly like (Interaction Skill), except it uses COM instead of PRE," or "If the GM wishes he can consider it an Interaction Skill and base it on PRE", or -- I trust fair use will allow me to quote Bob directly -- "She’s more likely to use Trading and/or [PRE-based] Seduction than anything COM-based to bring in customers." COM-based abilities such as Knowledge or Professional Skills based on COM seem like they're stretching for relevance, and are redundant at best. Several of them evince a lack of understanding of beauty, performance, sex work, and others. With one single exception, the suggestion of using Acting Skill (PRE-based) to increase a character's apparent Comeliness score. (See the end of this post for a real life anecdote illustrating this better than I ever could.) Two of the Talent builds are re-creations (pre-creations?) of Striking Appearance, being additional PRE used only for PRE-based rolls and Presence Attacks in particular situations. (One of them provides additional COM, as an apparent afterthought.) Of the rest, few mention COM at all, the remainder using "beautiful and/or handsome and/or ugly" as the SFX for Power builds that would work without modification in 6th edition. ("To Pretty To Hit" was clever, built as +5 DCV.) Nothing there supported keeping COM in the system in any way. (The article is available in the Haymaker Volume 6 archives from DrivethruRPG, for those who are curious.) In real life, a person with what you'd ordinarily consider a high COM score but average or low PRE score is "just a pretty face" and will lose, every time, to someone with both COM and PRE, or even with PRE and average COM. The real difference between Presence and Comeliness is illustrated by a famous anecdote about Marilyn Monroe called "Do You Want to See Her?" that I mentioned on the boards when we were discussing COM in 2008. Writer Robert Stein and photographer Ed Feingersh accompanied Miss Monroe around New York City. I'll quote some of it here, because just describing it loses its impact. Stein writes: Taking off the coat, fluffing up the hair, and changing her posture. Presence. This, more than anything, illustrates that Comeliness is nothing without Presence, to the point that COM may as well not even exist separately in the system.

Bob's article was great. I loved it. As I recall, it was all effectively house rules or Power builds. I can only assume that Steve didn't read the article, because he didn't address anything in it. It's been years since I've looked at the article, but I'm specifically asking about rules as written. I know I wasn't clear about that, but that's really what I'm interested in. (If it matters, I was in favor of keeping COM. I missed it for a while, but I don't seem to anymore.) I can imagine every single use for COM that you mentioned -- and each of them can be handled with Striking Appearance -- but how are your suggested uses mechanically distinct from Limited PRE (including Striking Appearance) -- specifically under RAW? To me they're all based on Presence, either via Interaction Skills or via a Presence Attack (see below). I certainly can. This can especially be handled either with roleplaying or with a bog standard Presence Attack -- which is already part of COM's purview in post-Almanac 4th edition through 5er. What exactly is the character doing to take advantage of "Pretty Privilege"? That sounds like the name of a power build to me. What exactly does it do in game? What's its mechanical effect? I keep harping on that, but everything we do in HERO lives under this guideline. A Limitation that doesn't limit isn't worth any points. If something has a mechanical effect, it costs points. If it's a Special Effect, it costs no points. You can feel free to suggest a Power (or Skill or Talent, etc.) build for it if you want, but I know that's not where you're going with that. So how does COM -- with specific reference to Rules As Written -- model Pretty Privilege as you've described it? Presence is more than defensive. Can't you? It's RAW in 5e and 5er at least that "This may affect some situations and Presence Attacks" (5er p. 38). And that you can make a COM Roll to help with certain situations where a character's appearance might help (also p. 38). But a Presence Attack is more than just blasting through a wall and saying your catch phrase... You mention an attractive woman walking into a room and capturing everyone's attention. This sounds exactly like a Presence Attack to me! A Presence Attack is an action that takes No Time (5er p. 363), and can therefore be performed whenever the character wants, as often as desired (5er p. 358). "To perform a Presence Attack, a character rolls 1d6 for every 5 points of PRE he has." (5er p. 428). That's a quote from the book, and that's all the character has to do! "GMs should modify this roll heavily, according to the exact circumstances." Let's go through them. In my mind's eye I'm seeing at the very least an Appropriate setting (+1d6). "Character makes an appropriate Interaction Skill Roll" for +1d6, by half or more for +2d6. I'll grant you a COM Roll here for that -- let's assume 23 COM, and that you roll 11 out of a 14- COM Roll, for +1d6. "Target is surprised" for +1d6. "Presence Attack agrees with target's Psychological Limitations"? I think we're postulating at least Moderate for +1d6. I'm seeing +4d6 here. At least 1d6 of that from COM. What are we assuming this woman's Presence is? It has to be at least 18, as a meek woman doesn't make that kind of entrance, not to gain the kind of attention this generates. Let's say 20, for argument's sake. We're at 8d6 right now. Average roll of 28... what are we assuming the average PRE or EGO is in here? 13-18, so were at a good solid PRE/EGO+10. "Target is very impressed [...] He considers very deeply what the attacker says, and may comply with requests or obey orders which seem worthwhile to him." (5er p. 428.) Striking Appearance replaces every mechanical function that COM has under RAW. Unless there are some others that you'd care to mention? I've more than thoroughly answered your question. Could you do me the courtesy of answering mine?

I'm asking what COM's mechanical effects are that are distinct from buying Limited PRE or Striking Appearance.

Interesting, I hadn't realized that was in 5th edition; it's not in 6th. I'd probably have made PRE Attacks resisted by EGO and not PRE, as it seems to me that all of the other PRE-based abilities (Interaction Skills) are resisted with EGO. There was at least a nod towards reducing redundancy in abilities in 6th edition. Armor got renamed, and Force Field was rolled into it. Suppress was rolled into Drain. Part of Entangle's previous functionality got rolled into a new Power (Barrier) along with Force Wall. Given that, and given the nature of COM as, in essence, a limited form of PRE, it made sense to roll it in. To be honest, if I were running a previous edition game, every 5 full points of COM above 10, or every 5 full points below 0, would get treated as, effectively, one level of the appropriate form of Striking Appearance. That's more or less what Striking Appearance was made to do. You'd get the Interaction Skill bonuses if applicable without having to make the COM Roll. Beauty is impactful at range, but what is its mechanical effect? Does it have any mechanical effects that aren't achieved with Striking Appearance or Limited PRE (which is really what Striking Appearance is)?

Emphasis mine. If I remember correctly, he first asked what is COM used for mechanically? (Bob Greenwade's article notwithstanding. I am certain Steve Long didn't read Bob's article, not out of merit or lack thereof, but so his own ideas weren't affected by it.) Most often it's making a COM Roll to affect interactions with another character, whether roleplayed or rolled via PRE-based Skills. Secondarily -- and optionally, and officially only in 4th edition (and if you want to tell me I'm wrong, you'll need to cite a book and page number) -- it's used to modify PRE Attacks based on either extreme beauty or extreme ugliness. (Edit to add: I can't actually find it in 4th edition. Someone want to provide a cite? Edit: HERO System Almanac p. 15, which is sort of the definition of an optional rule. Edit III: It actually is in 5e and 5er as well.) (Non-mechanically, it's used as a quantitative comparison in physical appearance, either with a specific other character or with some external standard for beauty, but any quantitative measure can do that via Special Effect.) The first part, affecting PRE-based Skill interactions or Presence Attacks, is easily handled with PRE that is Limited to or by circumstance. To the extent a Characteristic should affect interactions, the Characteristic we use for that is PRE. To the extent COM represents physical appearance with no mechanical effect, that's a Special Effect and need not cost points. To the extent COM is used to represent a quantitative comparison of two characters' physical attractiveness, without any mechanical effect, any quantifiable ability can represent this. But... "I make a COM Roll to see if I can sweet talk the guy over there into giving me the information I'm looking for, because I'm a stacked, redheaded dame, and I happen to know he loves stacked, redheaded dames." You can't very well claim that this interaction is not mechanized when you're asking for a COM Roll. So why a COM Roll and not a Persuasion Skill Roll -- this is literally what we have the Persuasion Skill for! "I want to use it as a Complementary Skill Roll for my PRE-based Skills..." Complementary Skill Rolls are a sometimes food -- we use them occasionally in situations where they happen to make sense. If you want bonuses to your Persuasion Skill (or some or all PRE-based (Interaction) Skills) that you can use any time you want, those are more properly Skill Levels. If they're limited by circumstance (Only Vs. Characters With A Weakness For Stacked, Redheaded Dames) and function (Only With Interaction Skills), we'd probably consider that Limited PRE. (Hugh himself pointed out more than once during SETAC that most if not all Skill Levels could be built as extra pips in the Characteristic, Limited in circumstance and function.) "I want it to affect all of my PRE-based Skills, not just Persuasion." Have I got news for you... (During the public discussion run-up to 6th edition, I suggested that a Characteristic whose only mechanical purpose was to be used for rolls could be replaced by a Skill. Most probably, Power Skill: Attractiveness, based on PRE. Most of the things you'd use a COM Roll for can be replaced by Power Stunts using this roll. This idea didn't go over very well.) Nothing in the above says there aren't non-mechanical uses for COM, and in fact during the public discussion and in this very thread those have been conceded. But anything non-mechanical is properly a Special Effect. You can declare yourself to be as good looking as you want; if it has no mechanical effect it costs no points. If you want to mechanize interaction, we have PRE and Interaction Skills for that. If you want to improve your Interaction Skills, you can buy more PRE or you can buy Skill Levels. If you want to limit your bonuses to "only vs. someone who finds me attractive" you can buy your PRE (or your Skill Levels) with that Limitation. But if the guy finds your character attractive, why do you even need to make a COM roll to see if he wants to talk to you? (While I have to admit no personal experience in this part, based on the Internet, it's my understanding that men always want to talk to a woman they find attractive and that the real trick is getting them not to talk to her...) Why COM? Why does it have to be a COM Roll? Why a whole separate Characteristic whose only mechanical effect is this? Why is this not PRE?