Gyren Dark Magic, as reflexive effects

[zippercomics]

Hi again!

 

I must seem like a newb at this point ...

 

I've built another race for my fantasy hero world (see "Shamanism" thread if you want to know what I mean by "another), who have magical effects and abilities that aren't necessarily par and parcel with the rest of the world. Specifically, this race is known as the Gyren; Satyr-men who are carnivorous, sexually voracious and otherwise violators of all the social graces the "civilized world" holds to. Naturally, this makes them seem evil, which I'd like to avoid categorizing them as. However, I am leaning them that way; I haven't done it well yet, but I'm trying to build a race that seems victimized and vilified for their culture, and while they seem evil, a truely adept reader will pick out that it may be as simple as a cultural difference, and that the Gyren aren't really "evil".

 

Anyway, part of what gives the rest of that world the notion of evil is that Gyren are one of the only races with natural, innate ability to manipulate "Dark Magic", or "Shroud Magic". Again, the quick backstory is that in the First Age, the Shrouded Spire rose up in the North. No one could ever reach it, so nothing's known about it. It seems ironic that the Gyren arrived as a race near the same time, so naturally, a lot of people made that connection. Shrouded Spire = evil, and Gyren can cast Shroud Magic. Hmm ...

 

I haven't developed the Gyren package yet, but I'm thinking of giving each of them a small pool of points from which to buy Shroud Magic spells (which no one else can buy). Simple stuff, little effects, but Magic in so much that it manipulates Arcanum. I'm thinking it won't require Gestures, Incantations, Foci, or the like, however.

 

In other words, Mage A raises his hands, says the words, snaps the fishbone, and a fireball comes from his hands. The Gyren just raises his hand, and bang, out comes the Shroudsphere.

 

Is that unbalancing, first off? To give one race "superpowers" where others don't have them? I keep thinking to myself, "Hero is a game where the characters will have the same points, so how can it be unbalancing". But then I think about pitting a 150 pt warrior against a 150 point Gyren warrior, and I worry that the earlier will get smote by the latter ...

 

Anyway, I ramble on. Any thoughts? Is innate magic as part of a package deal a bad idea? For that matter, is the story idea itself terrible?

 

Thanks again!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Gyren Dark Magic, as reflexive effects

 

Build some - do a test combat.

 

Also note that the Mage with Limitations can get more powers for the same points than a Gyren with no Limitations. I'd imagine the average Gyren would have a limited number of effects to draw from compared to a human mage - and of course that Fighter may have all sorts of tricks up his sleeve to deal with normal mages, how would that be different from a Gyren?

[zippercomics]

Re: Gyren Dark Magic, as reflexive effects

 

Build some - do a test combat.

 

Also note that the Mage with Limitations can get more powers for the same points than a Gyren with no Limitations. I'd imagine the average Gyren would have a limited number of effects to draw from compared to a human mage - and of course that Fighter may have all sorts of tricks up his sleeve to deal with normal mages, how would that be different from a Gyren?

 

I'm not sure that it would be. As my experience with Fantasy Hero is extremely limited, I may just be worrying about an imbalance that simply won't exist. I'll have to watch for that.

 

This is, of course, assuming that Gyren Shroud Magic is bought at 1/3 Real Cost, as will the spells of typical mages.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Gyren Dark Magic, as reflexive effects

 

Well, strip the setting off, put it in a more familiar setting and see what it looks like there - That's why we seperate Mechanics from Effects.

 

I have a feeling you'll find it won't be too imbalancing.

[Markdoc]

Re: Gyren Dark Magic, as reflexive effects

 

I'm not sure that it would be. As my experience with Fantasy Hero is extremely limited, I may just be worrying about an imbalance that simply won't exist. I'll have to watch for that.

 

This is, of course, assuming that Gyren Shroud Magic is bought at 1/3 Real Cost, as will the spells of typical mages.

 

If you do this, the fighter WILL get smote - but then, he'll get smote just as heavily by a conventional magic user, so I don't see a balance issue compared to other types of magic.

 

cheers, Mark

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Gyren Dark Magic, as reflexive effects

 

Also, you have to consider what does shroud magic actually... you know... do? Don't forget that there are other limitations other than Gestures/Incant/Foci. There's also extra time, extra END, side effects (heh heh) and other things you can do if you're concerned about limitations.

 

In a straight struggle for 'most powerful' than yes, the point system is going to favor the Wizard/VPP user over the Multipower user in some ways, but not others. The VPP user has more options and can ultimately learn anything; the Multipower guy buys the framework, and then pays peanuts for Ultra slots within it. Or, my favorite, elemental control (The Shroud). You've got options, here.

 

Yes, Markdoc is (as usual) correct, the fighter is gonna get blasted, but that's why he has armor & CSLs, instead of magic.

[hancock.tom]

Re: Gyren Dark Magic, as reflexive effects

 

Because the Shroud magic has no limitations, it will be a lot more expensive than regular magic. That should keep your balance in check pretty well. Plus the way you describe the Gyren makes them sound like they are going to have a pretty impairing social limitation.

 

That said, since it is "evil" magic in your world, you can always attach a (Shroud Magic -1/4) limitation to it, and then come up with some nifty corrupting side effect or something. Typical left hand path to power type stuff. Its okay for the shroud magic to be a little over-powering if it causes corruption over time.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Gyren Dark Magic, as reflexive effects

 

Oh, and when you say "evil" I assume you mean amoral, which is a variation on a theme, but an important distinction.

[hancock.tom]

Re: Gyren Dark Magic, as reflexive effects

 

Oh' date=' and when you say "evil" I assume you mean [i']amoral[/i], which is a variation on a theme, but an important distinction.

 

Doesn't evil typically mean morally bad rather than amoral? At least in the fantasy genre use of the word?

 

Amoral suggests you don't care morally one way or the other, a self-interested point of view. Evil suggests you enjoy killing innocent bunnies and whatnot. Evil is immoral.

 

I assumed by "evil" he meant "evil".

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Gyren Dark Magic, as reflexive effects

 

Hey hancock.tom. I'm referring to something specific in his post, actually:

 

However' date=' I am leaning them that way; I haven't done it well yet, but I'm trying to build a race that seems victimized and vilified for their culture, and while they seem evil, a truely adept reader will pick out that it may be as simple as a cultural difference, and that the Gyren aren't really "evil".[/quote']

 

This tells me that they are more 'amoral,' which I use in the comparative sense, than evil, which is more of an absolute. You and I can have different moralities; you prefer to keep snogging within marriage, I prefer to snog whatever's willing. You don't drink. I'm a borderline alcoholic. You are concerned for my wellbeing. I'm concerned that you don't drink.

 

In that light, I appear to be utterly amoral. I don't care what I do, where I sleep or who I sleep (or do) with. I'm looking for the next high and I possess all of the Faerie mythos traits of sexual power and virility. I also can cast magic with a flick of the wrist. Oops. That makes me dead sexy and stupid dangerous.

 

I may not be evil; I just don't come from a culture that has the same internal switches that a standard civilization does. We can then explore all sorts of things; am I more free, or less free? What constitutes freedom, and is it always what we believe we have? If I brought you into my world of debauchery, would you feel free, or would you feel restrained because now my society is placing all new expectations on you, to sleep with people you don't know and drink things you don't want? It's a variation on a theme.

 

But, that's why I said he meant 'amoral' instead of evil.

[hancock.tom]

Re: Gyren Dark Magic, as reflexive effects

 

Thia, Thanks for the heads up, I thought you were referring to a different part of his post and making a philosophical statement about evil. I agree with you totally, now that I see your post in context.

 

I have tried to do the "misunderstood, but not actually evil" fantasy race a couple of times. It works pretty well for the combat-oriented race with anger management problems. I did a sasquatch-like gentle giants that got angry and everyone thought they were evil because of it type race that worked well.

 

The time I had a race of gypsy-like humans doing dark magic, the PCs just didn't buy it. Its a little bit like someone who uses a plunger at his workplace telling you that he isn't a plumber. Sure its possible, but most of the time, you figure those who use the tools of evil are probably evil themselves. Even though the PCs never bought the "misunderstood" stuff I tried to feed them, it made for good gaming since they could be convinced that certain individuals of the target race were not evil.

[zippercomics]

Re: Gyren Dark Magic, as reflexive effects

 

Hey hancock.tom. I'm referring to something specific in his post, actually:

 

 

 

This tells me that they are more 'amoral,' which I use in the comparative sense, than evil, which is more of an absolute. You and I can have different moralities; you prefer to keep snogging within marriage, I prefer to snog whatever's willing. You don't drink. I'm a borderline alcoholic. You are concerned for my wellbeing. I'm concerned that you don't drink.

 

In that light, I appear to be utterly amoral. I don't care what I do, where I sleep or who I sleep (or do) with. I'm looking for the next high and I possess all of the Faerie mythos traits of sexual power and virility. I also can cast magic with a flick of the wrist. Oops. That makes me dead sexy and stupid dangerous.

 

I may not be evil; I just don't come from a culture that has the same internal switches that a standard civilization does. We can then explore all sorts of things; am I more free, or less free? What constitutes freedom, and is it always what we believe we have? If I brought you into my world of debauchery, would you feel free, or would you feel restrained because now my society is placing all new expectations on you, to sleep with people you don't know and drink things you don't want? It's a variation on a theme.

 

But, that's why I said he meant 'amoral' instead of evil.

 

I think that "amoral" is a good word to describe it, but as this is developed, I'm finding that even I am falling into the trap of just defining them as "evil". It's pretty easy, after all.

 

Gyren are typified for their wanton sexual activities, the dark magic and the means by which they gained it, and for their dietary habits. The earlier certainly doesn't make them evil by any measure; I mean, just because they're functionally horny little devils doesn't mean they're any better or worse than the next guy. It DOES mean that, in the very protypical standards of the Morwold fantasy world, they're seen as outsiders and "deviants" for those desires. But not evil.

 

It's the conspicuous consumption and the dark magic that I think will have this race put into the "evil" category, and I'm falling into some pretty overt holes while trying to develop that. I've described the Gyren on the website as having been almost cannibals, who - while they don't eat other Gyren - they do / did eat other humanoid races during their infancy. It's a pretty oblique thing that I don't think any culture would misconstrue as anything BUT "evil". The thing is, I may be off base in that: I see "evil", generally speaking, as a matter of perception. Kinda like most comic book badguys probably don't see themselves as evil, even though everyone else does.

 

Now, in regards to that consumption issue, the Gyren are resisting that. So it's not absolute, and it's put into place so that an aspiring player could play that "Gyren who's resisted his base impulses". I hope.

 

The magic, I like what's been presented here. I think I'll write it up as having a "dark side effect". That's a very neat idea. Plus, I agree that the social limitations are pretty severe, which I hope offsets their natural powers.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Gyren Dark Magic, as reflexive effects

 

Hey Tom;

 

I'd pay real money if everyone was as agreeable as you are. I'm actually doing a twist on the 'perceptions of evil' concept in one of my campaigns, and that's going to be good. Good & evil may be absolutes in most cases, but I'm using them as snap shots; good people make mistakes. Evil people can do the right thing for the wrong reasons. Nothing should be taken for granted in that sense. My goal was to paint the world in gradiant shades of grey; there's still defination. It's still clear what we're seeing, but without the giant yellow signs, you can still err.

 

It's worked perfectly, but since one of my PCs is a board lorder, I can't risk coughing up too many plot details, lest I spoil the cake.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Gyren Dark Magic, as reflexive effects

 

Flesh eating necromancers?

 

You realize this is way more interesting if its a side effect of the magic proper, than if it's actually because of any bizarre internal clock, right? Protein is protein. Mind you, colonizing humans for food purposes is pretty straight forward; they breed quickly and you can genetically manipulate them to produce the kinds of meat that you want. *shrug* Stop staring at me, I considered using it in a Sci-Fi campaign that I haven't written yet.

 

Where was I?

 

Anyway, side effects! I think you answered your own question. The Shroud has certain side effects; using Shroud magic triggers the effect, and the 'magic' will consume them (BODY damage, NND) if they don't appease it. Almost like a parasite, or a very very evil Symbiote (see: Eddie Brock & Venom).

 

Then you can toy around with their development, how they've been changed by long term exposure, and only now are realizing the connection (similar to the Jewish laws of being Kosher - Pork kills. Don't eat pork. That, and the Bible said so.) Both were considered valid reasons. Hey! Shroud magic makes us blood drinking baby eaters!

 

"But I likes my head explody!"

"Enough with you guys, I want to sleep with a girl more than once before I feel compelled to eat her tasty brains."

"Yeah, good point. You crazy guys with us?"

*pregnant pause*

*an eruption of magic as the woods fill with the screams of the falling and the sizzling crack of energy*

"THAT'S A "NO" TO LUNCH, THEN?!"

[hancock.tom]

Re: Gyren Dark Magic, as reflexive effects

 

The Shroud has certain side effects; using Shroud magic triggers the effect' date=' and the 'magic' will consume [i']them[/i] (BODY damage, NND) if they don't appease it.

Then you can toy around with their development, how they've been changed by long term exposure, and only now are realizing the connection

 

Now THIS is a cool idea. There is your side effect, and a good reason that shroud magic is seen as evil.

 

Of course, it does make the whole "misunderstood" thing even harder to swallow, but no one was going to swallow it anyway.

 

I've always found the good/evil line blurring great RPG material just because it is so different from what it typically done in RPGS.

 

The line blurring, morality question raising type of story was the best thing about the aberrant RPG white wolf put out. It works just as well in fantasy.

 

Making an Evil NPC do the right thing for the wrong reasons was always a favorite of mine too. You got an adventure within an adventure, in addition to the main adventure the PCs were trying to figure out why the evil NPC was on their side for once. It typically led to a greater evil than the current one.

 

That always left the PCs with a big moral question.

 

[/flashback]

I recall one old school homebrew 2nd AD&D campaign I played in sometime in high school where we the PCs were trying to save the child of a deceased local priest who had been kidnapped when her father was killed. The "evil" NPC was helping us and also trying to recover the child while one "good" NPC was constantly working against us.

 

It turned out the priest had adopted the child (who was 1/2 god) and kept her safe for years because sacrificing her would trigger a cataclysmic magical event, and when the settings uber-baddie (think kal-turak, sauron, etc) found out where she was, he killed the priest, but the "good" NPC managed to rescue the child before she could be transported back to the uber-baddie's hideout for sacrifice.

 

Anyway, we succeed in "rescuing" her, and then we, the PCs, are left to figure out what to do with her. Whats the first thing our fighter says? "Sacrificing her is different from just killing her, right?" Of course, this is what the GM was setting us up for. The whole would you kill an innocent to save the world dilemma. IIRC, we ended up traveling halfway across the world and leaving her in a monastery or something like that. [end/flashback]

 

Anways... yeah. moral dilemmas in RPGS are always fun and get you more "into" the game than black and white decisions.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Gyren Dark Magic, as reflexive effects

 

*nods* Thanks for the compliment - it's always appreciated. I think that this alone is probably a good foundation for any number of campaigns, or one massive module (The Trip up the Dark Tower, and other appropriately worded phrases of doom) and then, once inside, create the "world" of the tower as the PCs struggle to unravel its secrets and Save The World .

[Markdoc]

Re: Gyren Dark Magic, as reflexive effects

 

Yes' date=' Markdoc is (as usual) correct, the fighter is gonna get blasted, but that's why he has armor & CSLs, instead of magic.[/quote']

 

Note, that's not all magic systems - I was aiming specifically at the "divide by 3" thing - it essentially allows characters to buy extremely powerful spells for a pittance of points with no counterbalance like a framework.

 

A spell caster who can transform himself into a limited number (64 different types!) of 400 point monsters with an easy skill roll (spell of the monstrous form from the Grimoire) is going to toast any fighter. He can be bigger, tougher, stronger, faster (or often a combination of those) than any fighter of near equivalent points, have area effect attacks to toast the high DCV light fighter, or absolutely lethal attacks to waste any heavy fighter (IIRC correctly, the basilisk has an 8d6 RKA!) and so on. And this for 16 points - the same as a fighter pays for +2 with all combat.

 

Frameworks have one major advantage - they stop someone just dashing out and buying one uberuseful 200-something active point spell, without investing a few points elsewhere first.

 

Cheers, Mark

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Gyren Dark Magic, as reflexive effects

 

Good point, Mark, and that's exactly why I went with the framework construction. I hadn't actually considered that as a possibility. Out of curiosity, if you've seen Teen Titans, how would you build Beast Boy? The others are pretty easy; Starfire is using a Multipower/EC type build (Star Power), Raven is using a VPP with limited effects (it includes Force Fields, EBs, TP, Flight, Shape Shifting - she's a magic user who built a set of standard effects, but has been known to go outside of those on occassion). Robin is a Martial Artist with a gadget VPP like his trainer, and Cyborg is another gold-standard MP (Cybernetics) with a bunch of skills (the balance character). Those are my guesses.

 

Within that is Beast Boy, if you haven't seen the show, he's a mutant who's always green, in any form he takes. He's limited to "Any animal he's encountered," so if he ever met an honest-to-goodness dragon, it's reasonable he could shift into it. He had a radiation accident in season 3 which gave him access to a high-combat Werewolf/Crinos form, and when visiting other planets he can shift into their forms as well.

 

Would you build it as a single power? As a VPP with strict lims? I haven't been able to pin it down. I'm assuming it's built as a VPP via Multiform. Help?

[Markdoc]

Re: Gyren Dark Magic, as reflexive effects

 

Within that is Beast Boy, if you haven't seen the show, he's a mutant who's always green, in any form he takes. He's limited to "Any animal he's encountered," so if he ever met an honest-to-goodness dragon, it's reasonable he could shift into it. He had a radiation accident in season 3 which gave him access to a high-combat Werewolf/Crinos form, and when visiting other planets he can shift into their forms as well.

 

Would you build it as a single power? As a VPP with strict lims? I haven't been able to pin it down. I'm assuming it's built as a VPP via Multiform. Help?

 

 

Actually I understated it in my last post - the second spell of the monstrous form allows you to change into forms of up to 1000 points - my costing was for the no skill roll, rapid version with "many more forms" (up to 64) meaning for a handful of points you could turn into any one of a swarm of absolutely lethal monsters in but a single phase.

 

The reason I mention it is because it gives you the answer to Beast Boy: you don't need a VPP. All you need is Multiform with multiple forms. The Grimoire spells are limited to things like "monsters" or "animals", but since there *aren't* 64 useful monsters in the 1000 point range in the bestiary, as a GM, I would be happy saying "any monster up to 1000 points" since the difference between 64 forms and any form is not huge - the player could spend a bit more and buy more forms as he got experience if you demanded, but you get the idea.

 

If I was Beast Boy's GM, I'd allow a limited group "creatures recently encountered" at the 64 forms level - that should cover months of gaming. The green thing I would not make a limitation on the power - since it doesn't really limit the power nad gives a decent price break for little real effect. If he's a real dragon, who cares if he's green? It's a limitation on the character, who's always readily identifiable. So I'd give him a distinguishing feature - "always bright green" and leave it at that.

 

cheers, Mark

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Gyren Dark Magic, as reflexive effects

 

Thanks, Mark!