Worst comic book superfight ever

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

In the very scan you post, Spidey eventually stops jumping around and just starts whaling on Firelord, who is probably out at that point.

 

Spidey doesn't dodge things that aren't there.

Hey, you're doing a great job, and bringing up awesome points here but feel free to add anything I've said that didn't come to mind so Chuckg can respond to the ideas.

 

It's not really fair to the poor guy for him to get so thoroughly retorted and not realize how "covered" his points are from every angle between your responses, Gary's, and mine... and some other fine fellows who dabble in the thread a bit.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

As for the Agent X quote I saw reflected just now -- 'Firelord couldn't react to the bewildering movements to attack him'.

 

So, why did Firelord simply stand there giong 'duhhhhhhhhhhh' instead of remembering 'I fly, this guy doesn't, I'll just pop up a bit and leave him punching air down here, and then start shooting at him again?'

 

And no, don't even try the 'honor' excuse this time. Firelord had been blasting at Spidey from up in the air for almost two issues by this point, so it's hardly something he wouldn't mind doing.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

In the very scan you post' date=' Spidey eventually stops jumping around and just starts whaling on Firelord[/quote']

 

Those bottom three panels are tight close-ups of Spidey. We have no idea of whether he's jumping around or not.

 

AAMOF, given that the background behind Spidey in those panels is nothing but blurry speed lines, him most probably still jumping around.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

OK, so first, the artist is not drawing Spidey hitting Firelord because it would ruin the pacing, and now he's supposed to not be drawing Firelord hitting back because it would ruin the pacing.

 

Calling this line of reasoning ludicrous would be dignifying it too much. Now you're arguing that the artist hasn't bothered to draw the majority of actions taken by *both* sides in the fight, to the point of giving an entirely different impression of events than what "actually" happened! At this rate, why doesn't the guy just give us 22 pages of blank space while the narrator simply *tells* us what's going on?

 

What's on the page is a short, brutal takedown vs. an opponent whose too dazed to resist. What you're claiming happened is a long drawn-out affair, with dozens of blows struck on both sides.

 

Tell me, how does it supposedly 'improve' the pacing to draw a completely different fight than what supposedly happened?

 

I suppose you might find some kind of refuge in claiming that instead of hideously incompetent *writing*, there was hideously incompetent *drawing*. Me, I can't see the difference -- or the plausibility in trying such in the first place.

 

 

You're really falling apart on this point.

 

Those pages are meant to show Spidey's last stand. He's had enough, he's frustrated and angry, and now it's time to stop running and go down fighting. That's what the artist draws, because that's what's important.

 

How many times Spidey punched Firelord isn't important. How many times Firelord swiped at Spidey isn't important. We don't need to know those things, they don't help the scene become more effective. The panels show us how Spidey won, we don't need a diagram.

 

Comic books are art, and you continue to forget that.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

OK, so first, the artist is not drawing Spidey hitting Firelord because it would ruin the pacing, and now he's supposed to not be drawing Firelord hitting back because it would ruin the pacing.

 

Calling this line of reasoning ludicrous would be dignifying it too much. Now you're arguing that the artist hasn't bothered to draw the majority of actions taken by *both* sides in the fight, to the point of giving an entirely different impression of events than what "actually" happened! At this rate, why doesn't the guy just give us 22 pages of blank space while the narrator simply *tells* us what's going on?

 

What's on the page is a short, brutal takedown vs. an opponent whose too dazed to resist. What you're claiming happened is a long drawn-out affair, with dozens of blows struck on both sides.

That is a very dishonest representation of what he said.

 

Tell me' date=' how does it supposedly 'improve' the pacing to draw a completely different fight than what supposedly happened? [/quote'] It focuses the reader's mind on what is the most important element of that part of the fight and it does it with an economy of panels... because comic books only have so many pages.

 

I suppose you might find some kind of refuge in claiming that instead of hideously incompetent *writing*' date=' there was hideously incompetent *drawing*. Me, I can't see the difference -- or the plausibility in trying such in the first place.[/quote'] I think you need to find a different form of storytelling to enjoy if you find comic books so hideously incompetent.

[Gary]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

You're really falling apart on this point.

 

Those pages are meant to show Spidey's last stand. He's had enough, he's frustrated and angry, and now it's time to stop running and go down fighting. That's what the artist draws, because that's what's important.

 

How many times Spidey punched Firelord isn't important. How many times Firelord swiped at Spidey isn't important. We don't need to know those things, they don't help the scene become more effective. The panels show us how Spidey won, we don't need a diagram.

 

Comic books are art, and you continue to forget that.

 

 

I wish I could rep you again for this one.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

As for the Agent X quote I saw reflected just now -- 'Firelord couldn't react to the bewildering movements to attack him'.

 

So, why did Firelord simply stand there giong 'duhhhhhhhhhhh' instead of remembering 'I fly, this guy doesn't, I'll just pop up a bit and leave him punching air down here, and then start shooting at him again?'

 

And no, don't even try the 'honor' excuse this time. Firelord had been blasting at Spidey from up in the air for almost two issues by this point, so it's hardly something he wouldn't mind doing.

Because Firelord is mad? He wants to wring Spidey's neck? The last thing he wants is to move away from Spidey because he's working off of emotions not reason?

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

> You're really falling apart on this point.

 

Yes, pointing out that comics artists are supposed to draw what's happening in the comics, totally nonsensical, me.

 

> Those pages are meant to show Spidey's last stand. He's had enough,

> he's furstrated and angry, and now it's time to stop running and go

> down fighting. That's what the artist draws, because that's what's

> important.

 

> How many times Spidey punched Firelord isn't important.

 

On the contrary, it's *very* important -- to the argument you've been trying to make. You bet your position on Spidey's alleged 'quantity', now you've got to back that alleged 'quantity' up.

 

> How many times Firelord swiped at Spidey isn't important. We don't

> need to know those things, [snip]

 

Thank you for admitting that you have no evidence to back up your claims about quantity. You have only your own wishful thinking, and that's apparently all you feel you need.

 

Well, it might convince you, but it damn sure ain't convincing.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I wish I could rep you again for this one.

I could and I did.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

> You're really falling apart on this point.

 

Yes, pointing out that comics artists are supposed to draw what's happening in the comics, totally nonsensical, me.

 

> Those pages are meant to show Spidey's last stand. He's had enough,

> he's furstrated and angry, and now it's time to stop running and go

> down fighting. That's what the artist draws, because that's what's

> important.

 

> How many times Spidey punched Firelord isn't important.

 

On the contrary, it's *very* important -- to the argument you've been trying to make. You bet your position on Spidey's alleged 'quantity', now you've got to back that alleged 'quantity' up.

 

> How many times Firelord swiped at Spidey isn't important. We don't

> need to know those things, [snip]

 

Thank you for admitting that you have no evidence to back up your claims about quantity. You have only your own wishful thinking, and that's apparently all you feel you need.

 

Well, it might convince you, but it damn sure ain't convincing.

The premise for you claim, I think it's time to be rather more blunt, is rock stupid.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Because Firelord is mad? He wants to wring Spidey's neck? The last thing he wants is to move away from Spidey because he's working off of emotions not reason?

 

Mad, disbelieving, refusing to allow this gnat to defeat him until it's already happened.

 

A host of reasons are possible.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

If you're pulling them straight out of your ***.

[Gary]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Funny how Chuck earlier in this thread was trying to do detailed calculations of how much time passed between panels, and now he's trying to literally say that no time can pass between panels of a comic.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

If you're pulling them straight out of your ***.

:rolleyes:

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Funny how Chuck earlier in this thread was trying to do detailed calculations of how much time passed between panels' date=' and now he's trying to literally say that no time can pass between panels of a comic. [/quote'] Consistency is not a virtue for propagandastic thinking.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

... becuase Spidey is talking continuously throughout the transition, and there's no gap in his speech, yes.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

On the contrary, it's *very* important -- to the argument you've been trying to make. You bet your position on Spidey's alleged 'quantity', now you've got to back that alleged 'quantity' up.

 

The quantity is "enough." That's what the panel represents. Spidey hits Firelord and hits him again and keeps hitting him until the Avengers pull him off. We don't need a counter for that.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

... becuase Spidey is talking continuously throughout the transition' date=' and there's no gap in his speech, yes.[/quote'] I thought Gary was on your Ignore List.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Funny how Chuck earlier in this thread was trying to do detailed calculations of how much time passed between panels' date=' and now he's trying to literally say that no time can pass between panels of a comic. [/quote']

 

 

[Gary]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Mad, disbelieving, refusing to allow this gnat to defeat him until it's already happened.

 

A host of reasons are possible.

 

 

Yeah, Firelord doesn't have anything like a previous history of a volatile temper or anything.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The quantity is "enough." That's what the panel represents.

 

And so, after days of effort, we circle around right back to the very beginning of the argument -- plausibility doesn't matter, consistency doesn't matter, if Spidey won, then it has to be a good story.

 

 

Spidey's performance, not consistent with either the vast majority of his own performances re: punching(*), or pretty much the entire totality of Firelord's performances re: taking punches. Your only argument to the contrary relies upon imagining things into existence that never actually appeared anywhere in the comic.

 

Which means your argument has nothing to back it up. You cannot point to anything actually drawn or written as proof. You have to wish it into thinking and then claim that it was never actually drawn.

 

 

 

 

(*) The words 'vast majority' are used so that if you haul out a couple of other fluke examples or villain jobbers, that's still not enough.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

And re: the page transition -- as I've said only four times by now, Spidey starts talking on page 1, finishes talking on page 2, and there's absolutely no gap in his speech between the one and the other. That's the clue for how much time passed... i.e., goddamn little.

 

So I'm *still* calculating how much time passed between panels. It's just, sometimes the calculation says 'zero'. Depends on which two panels you're talking about. Some of 'em transit directly from one to the other, and some of 'em don't.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Observation:

Cap vs. Batman...no conclusive evidence, long argument based on anecdotal evidence and opinion

Spidey vs. Firelord...positive conclusive evidence (it's on the page, it happened), even longer argument based on anecdotal evidence and opinion...and denial

 

Still, it has a way to go before it beats

 

Takofenes vs. Dr. Destroyer...statistical evidence, though no actual printed fight, longest argument ever based on anecdotal evidence and opinion

 

So, it seems that with more evidence the arguments get longer...

[CBikle]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I thought Gary was on your Ignore List.

 

If ChuckG really put everyone on his ignore list that he's said he had, this thread would have died off 40 pages ago.

[Gary]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

And re: the page transition -- as I've said only four times by now, Spidey starts talking on page 1, finishes talking on page 2, and there's absolutely no gap in his speech between the one and the other. That's the clue for how much time passed... i.e., goddamn little.

 

So I'm *still* calculating how much time passed between panels. It's just, sometimes the calculation says 'zero'. Depends on which two panels you're talking about. Some of 'em transit directly from one to the other, and some of 'em don't.

 

 

Those were separate statements. Who knows how much time passed between each panel. It's not like Spidey said half a statement on one panel, and the second half on another panel.