Worst comic book superfight ever

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Just as a question' date=' would a narrative box explaining Firelord's unpreparedness or arrogance as making him not fight well be as good as luck to you?[/quote']

 

I could, if I stretched a bit, accept it as an explanation for why he didn't use area frags. But it would still do nothing to explain him suddenly becoming far less durable than usual. Which is the real sticking point of that beatdown sequence. It's *really* doubtful that the guy's defenses are all bought with "Does Not Work Unless Humble", after all. (add -- especially since he was an arrogant jerk in his Thor & Hercules interactions, as well. AAMOF, 'arrogant' seems to be his normal state of mind. Of course, he's used area frags in his normal state of mind before, so...)

 

As for 'not set up for serious combat' -- Firelord spends the majority of both comics in a literal homicidal rage, to the point where he's monologueing about it not only repeatedly, but downright obsessively. I think he'd forgotten about the pizza after the punching started.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

1268 Posts on Firelord v. Spidey. You guys kill me. Keep up the good work

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

You're Right! How could I have been so blind?

 

The only thing Spider-God cannot do is create a stone so heavy that He cannot lift it. Debate over.

 

Next flamefest, can Bat-God beat Spider-God?

There isn't a single actual point in this response - just a pathetic attempt to pretend that Spider-Man moving rapidly and barraging an arrogant foe is the equivalent of Batman's writing which allows him to have precognitive powers and manipulate events at a whim.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Except I don't think he was helpless in a way that didn't call for more beating to hedge a bet' date=' except for probably a brief time that Captain refers to. Remember, the biggest mistake in ANY genre is where someone walks away from the bad guy who is down and is surprised to see him jump back up.[/quote'] I don't see why it's so hard for them to understand that Spidey was worked up when he began his onslaught on Firelord and didnt' know when to quit because he was in a heightened state of aggression.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Pop quiz -- who was the first person in this thread to say that the OHOTMU was *not* canonical? Why, I do believe it was me!

 

There's a reason I based my arguments on Firelord's prior appearances & feats, not on the OHOTMU. And the answer is, nobody here pretends that the OHOTMU is anything but a pile of garbage. Nobody's arguing this, so why is Agent X still trying?

Somebody, Enforcer, was arguing that. It's not all about you, Chuckg.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Is anyone else getting really sick of Agent X assuming everyone who doesn't like this particular fight doesn't know a damn thing about Spider-Man?

I suppose I should be sick of you disagreeing with me by that logic.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Is this your first encounter with Agent X?

Are we at the point where you guys begin full-scale personal attacks?

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I suppose I should be sick of you disagreeing with me by that logic.

The difference being, your first impulse seems to be 'if they don't agree with me, they must not know anything'.

 

Which is pretty arrogant IMO.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The alternative is to see you and many others as trolling. I don't see much behavioral difference among nost (not all)people here and I see a lot of over-the-top personalization and motive-smearing on both sides.

You're missing a certain nuance then. I've noticed a fairly one-sided state of affairs concerning ridicule and distortion. Chuckg and McCoy have literally put words in other's mouths whereas their opponents have shown the logical implications of what's wrong with their assumptions. It may not paint Chuckg's or McCoy's position in a positive light but it isn't a matter of putting words in someone's mouth in order to pretend them the fool.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The difference being, your first impulse seems to be 'if they don't agree with me, they must not know anything'.

 

Which is pretty arrogant IMO.

 

Yeah, at least I try to only go "Haven't you read that issue?" instead of "Haven't you ever read anything with Spidey in it?"

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The difference being, your first impulse seems to be 'if they don't agree with me, they must not know anything'.

 

Which is pretty arrogant IMO.

Why else would I not agree with you? I don't think you've read enough Spider-Man or you just haven't thought about the implications of quite a few Spidey stories as you haven't noted why the Firelord story isn't all that exceptional. If I didn't think that we wouldn't be disagreeing would we?

 

Next time, I'll say something like this - "I've noticed some things in Spider-Man comics that you haven't then, I suppose." Is that better?

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yeah' date=' at least I try to only go "Haven't you read that issue?" instead of "Haven't you ever read anything with Spidey in it?"[/quote'] Snake Gandhi, I would learn a bit more about posters before I take Chuckg and McCoy as character witnesses concerning other posters on the boards.

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Snake Gandhi' date=' I would learn a bit more about posters before I take Chuckg and McCoy as character witnesses concerning other posters on the boards.[/quote']Actually, I know Chuckg from another board. (the previously mentioned Comic Book Rumbles board, where all we do is argue about which comic book character would beat another comic book character. This is far from as geeky as I can get:) )

 

While Chuck can be, I think the nice word is 'abrasive':D , I've never known him to be dishonest.

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Why else would I not agree with you? I don't think you've read enough Spider-Man or you just haven't thought about the implications of quite a few Spidey stories as you haven't noted why the Firelord story isn't all that exceptional. If I didn't think that we wouldn't be disagreeing would we?

 

Next time, I'll say something like this - "I've noticed some things in Spider-Man comics that you haven't then, I suppose." Is that better?

In this instance, if your argument is that Spidey is capable of hurting folks as tough as Firelord, the best approach would be to find instances of times where he has hurt folks as tough as Firelord.

 

Thats a better tac than saying your opposition doesn't know what he's talking about, and far less insulting.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Actually, it does.

 

Of the three categories listed:

 

a) less powerful hero beats vastly more powerful villain by cleverness

less powerful hero beats vastly more powerful villain by exploiting villain's particular equivalent of Kryptonite

c) less powerful hero beats vastly more powerful villain by suddenly going Super-Saiyajin for absolutely no damn reason whatsoever

 

Continuity only gets in the way of c), and -- only if the villain was originally created without a Kryptonite weakness -- . And even then, you can often find a valid reason for adding a vulnerability later. ("Curses! My last power amplification treatment has had the side effect of making me direly allergic to grain products! Now I'll NEVER beat Powdered Toast Man!").

 

Not to mention, of course, the simple route of intro'ing the villain's weakness at character creation.

 

So, again, continuity is no bar to telling stories where less powerful heroes defeat more powerful villains. What it *is* a bar towards is telling those stories *stupidly* or *lazily*.

 

I dunno about you, but me, I like anything that makes a writer have to avoid stupid or lazy hackwork.

 

 

Okay, I see we crossed a couple sub-threads here.

 

What you have still not answered but was a separate query from this, but I inserted it into this one by accident, wherein my question, though phrased as a statement originally, was simply this - given the violation of continuity by Silver Age Batman, Batman the TV show (which was put into comic form for a time and the regular comic book was similar to for a time), Golden Age Batman, mid-late '70s O'Neill (sp) Batman, and Miller Batman at the same time, are these all invalidated? Despite many good stories having been told in each?

 

Continuity is great but your point that serial fiction rests "solely" on it is a damning blow to allowing for stories such as the Killing Joke and so on. I think a balance is necessary. Others here have pointed to something I see as much more sensible than trying to argue Spiderman's power level is incapable of defeating a herald of Galactus who is doing a crappy job, in regard to the issue of the icon of Spiderman in the comics. But "continuity" in Marvel hardly seems violated anyway in allowing for a morality tale of the god who couldn't. However, even surrendering it is, the larger question I am curious about given you made the claim that continuity was the only driver. I am hoping you were exaggerating. If not, you are willingly asking people to give up lots of great stories for an ideal that doesn't seem to justify it.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

In this instance' date=' if your argument is that Spidey is capable of hurting folks as tough as Firelord, the best approach would be to find instances of times where he has hurt folks as tough as Firelord.[/quote']

 

Now they'll just bring up the Rhino and Titania things again. Granted, I totally missed the part where the Rhino and Titania have lived through uncontrolled atmospheric re-entry without a spaceship... (after first being slammed by Thanos' pet battle station.)

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

That 'holding back' is the 'masked' part.

 

And yes, I said that Spidey had self-guilt and a certain amount of self-loathing. What I didn't do is take it anywhere near as far as you wanted to.

 

Remember, we're arguing about degree here, not kind.

Yes, but all I've suggested is a story idea where we find his subconscious holds much of his power back. You seem to turn this into some sort of death wish as opposed to a form of limited hysterical paralysis, which is not what I said anywhere.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

What you have still not answered but was a separate query from this' date=' but I inserted it into this one by accident, wherein my question, though phrased as a statement originally, was simply this - given the violation of continuity by Silver Age Batman, Batman the TV show (which was put into comic form for a time and the regular comic book was similar to for a time), Golden Age Batman, mid-late '70s O'Neill (sp) Batman, and Miller Batman at the same time, are these all invalidated? Despite many good stories having been told in each?[/quote']

 

Um, the Pre-Crisis era was specifically noted for being episodic, not serial. They had "Imaginary Stories" all the time, and whenever one comic contradicted another and it *wasn't* an 'Imaginary Story', they explained it simply by saying that the different comics were on different timelines. Continuity was something they treated as optional at best and nonexistent at worst.

 

Strict serial continuity didn't *exist* for DC until after the Crisis on Infinite Earths -- that was the entire point of the first Crisis, to collapse all the divergent timelines into one! (Which, yes, required retconning the crap out of a lot of things. That's why anything from Pre-Crisis comics is not considered to *be* in continuity anymore, unless later affirmed by a Post-Crisis flashback... DC literally rebooted and re-formatted their entire cosmos.)

 

So no, they do not 'invalidate' the point that serial fiction requires continuity to *be* serial fiction, because the Pre-Crisis DCU *wasn't* serial fiction, it was episodic fiction.

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Now they'll just bring up the Rhino and Titania things again. Granted' date=' I totally missed the part where the Rhino and Titania have lived through uncontrolled atmospheric re-entry without a spaceship...[/quote']Well, IIR he's never beaten Titania down with his fists, just threw her off a cliff.

 

Same for Rhino far as I know. Rhino is slower than spit and twice as dumb, Pete usually just dances around till Rhino takes himself out.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I could, if I stretched a bit, accept it as an explanation for why he didn't use area frags. But it would still do nothing to explain him suddenly becoming far less durable than usual. Which is the real sticking point of that beatdown sequence. It's *really* doubtful that the guy's defenses are all bought with "Does Not Work Unless Humble", after all. (add -- especially since he was an arrogant jerk in his Thor & Hercules interactions, as well. AAMOF, 'arrogant' seems to be his normal state of mind. Of course, he's used area frags in his normal state of mind before, so...)

 

As for 'not set up for serious combat' -- Firelord spends the majority of both comics in a literal homicidal rage, to the point where he's monologueing about it not only repeatedly, but downright obsessively. I think he'd forgotten about the pizza after the punching started.

I think you're missing the point. The point is he never bothered to turn on most of his powers because he was arrogant and they weren't on to begin with because he just wanted a pizza.

 

As to the issue of his defenses, don't try to confuse the conjecture regarding why they weren't up with "doesn't work when not humble," since nobody claimed that. I and others have claimed he didn't feel they were necessary against the "lowly" Spiderman. It seems pretty obvious to me but is clearly not obvious to some others, meaning that it's a matter of interpretation in the end.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yes' date=' but all I've suggested is a story idea where we find his subconscious holds much of his power back. You seem to turn this into some sort of death wish as opposed to a form of limited hysterical paralysis, which is not what I said anywhere.[/quote']

 

Even subtracting the death wish, hysterical paralysis is still no sign of mental health. I don't feel it necessary to load down characters I like with any more mental issues than the ones they already got, and in some cases, I could wish they already got less.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

You're missing a certain nuance then. I've noticed a fairly one-sided state of affairs concerning ridicule and distortion. Chuckg and McCoy have literally put words in other's mouths whereas their opponents have shown the logical implications of what's wrong with their assumptions. It may not paint Chuckg's or McCoy's position in a positive light but it isn't a matter of putting words in someone's mouth in order to pretend them the fool.

I don't think so. I won't get into who is a bigger jerk than who, but I see undue goading and attacks from both sides.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I think you're missing the point. The point is he never bothered to turn on most of his powers because he was arrogant and they weren't on to begin with because he just wanted a pizza.

 

Problem -- as mentioned before, arrogance is Firelord's default state of mind, and it's never affected his power selection before.

 

Not to mention that there is absolutely zero evidence that Firelord's defenses require 'turning on'.

[CBikle]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Pop quiz -- who was the first person in this thread to say that the OHOTMU was *not* canonical? Why, I do believe it was me!

 

There's a reason I based my arguments on Firelord's prior appearances & feats, not on the OHOTMU. And the answer is, nobody here pretends that the OHOTMU is anything but a pile of garbage. Nobody's arguing this, so why is Agent X still trying?

 

Minor point, but at the time of this story The Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe was canon.

 

Prior to being published, it was specifically used as a resource for writers, artists and editors to research people, places and things in the MU.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Minor point' date=' but at the time of this story The [i']Official[/i] Handbook Of The Marvel Universe was canon.

 

Prior to being published, it was specifically used as a resource for writers, artists and editors to research people, places and things in the MU.

 

... as an advisory, not a setter of hard limits. Hell, even the OHOTMU itself gave every power in terms of estimates and generalities, not in hard-and-fast #'s. (Even when it gave a #, that was just an estimate.) Which is why it's useless for setting absolutes.

 

At any rate, I'm not using it as canon, so there, that's one I'm giving Agent X and friends for free.