Agent X Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Let's start with first apperance. Kept the fight going long enough for Thor to show up, then signaled Galactus. Which is what he wanted to do. That's Firelord 1-0 at that point. That's winning an objective. That's not beating down the other guy. Let's not get confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Gandhi Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever So you're still not answering a direct question. Yes I did. Question: Did Pete hit him 4 times? Answer: It doesn't matter. The number of times Pete hit him has no bearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Looking for consistency in the treatment of comic book characters is a fool's exercise, especially when they've been around for forty years and have been reinterpreted by *hundreds* of creators. Spidey's particularly problematic, because his power level has been chronically mishandled. Take the Conway ASM run and some of the early Spectacular Spider-Man issues, where he's menaced by the likes of Hammerhead (who, to his credit, can blow up nuclear plants with his head), the Gibbon, the Kangaroo, the (non-powered) Tarantula, and a host of other less than luminary opponents. Could Conway's Spidey beat a Herald of Galactus? Would DeFalco's Spidey (DeFalco, IIRC, wrote the issue and was subsequently Marvel's EiC, which may have influenced depictions of Firelord that postdate the comic) spent a half-dozen pages on the ropes against the Tarantula? Ultimately, you have to cherry pick the versions of the characters you want to use for comparison purposes when you have variations in power level that are this great. You can cite all the issues you want, you can attempt to present data logically, you can measure the pressure exerted by someone with Unearthly strength, but it doesn't really matter: the principle of transitivity doesn't apply to comic book fights, and the capriciousness of author and/or editor makes estimating the outcome of such fights an inexact science at the best of times. That said, Cap beats Batman every fricking time. :-) At first I left it in rep world as I repped this, but I do want to say, I really think this is a good rise above a fanboyish obsession with "who hit who" and is more to the reality of storytelling in comics. Like metagaming, it's not (necessarily) a bad thing, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Yes I did. Question: Did Pete hit him 4 times? Answer: It doesn't matter. The number of times Pete hit him has no bearing. So do you agree that a panel that shows X number of punches can represent more than X actual punches? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever No' date=' but I also wouldn't put him in the same toughness class as Thor. The Human component is the weak link. No matter how much damage the armor stops, there is just so much shaking and G-force that Stark can take. I think an opponent like Thor or the Hulk could kill Stark without ever putting a dent in the armor.[/quote'] I think Iron Man is in the class of those quintessential mortal heroes this can't happen to by design of their mythos. As long as his suit is on, anyway. I didn't include him in the response to Snake Ghandi above because of his suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Gandhi Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever 2) Thor can Con Stun Firelord, therefore Hulk can Con Stun Firelord if he gets a solid hit. Does anyone dispute this? Yes. Thor Stunned him once, out of how many blows? Saying it's a regular thing is a bit much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever What if Thor let him? Are you saying Thor is tough enough and Spiderman weak enough that if Thor stood there and didn't use Mjolnir that Spiderman couldn't do it? Good question. I don't know. If for some reason Thor wanted to be beaten into a coma, maybe. Would take a lot of haymakers though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever At first I left it in rep world as I repped this' date=' but I do want to say, I really think this is a good rise above a fanboyish obsession with "who hit who" and is more to the reality of storytelling in comics. Like metagaming, it's not (necessarily) a bad thing, either.[/quote'] As a general statement, I don't have a real problem with it. Assuming that there is a contradiction between Spidey's problems with Hammerhead and his ability to rise to the challenge against Firelord is what I have a problem with. Just because you can explain anything with that method doesn't mean you always have to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever I understand, and acknowledge, that your point is that Spider-Man has an undocumented find weakness ability. And I thank you for that. It reminded me of an earlier post i ment to respond to. And how long would it take a non-jobbed Pyreus Kril to realize his defenses should be amped? I would think the second time he took STUN would do it. First may have been a lucky shot. So I'm taking that as support for my contention that in that final blitz he had to be stunned by the first haymaker, or knocked out by the followup kick. Otherwise he would have either (1) attacked effectively (2) ramped his defenses or (3) remembered he could fly out of reach and reasses the situation. The one or two STUN per punch getting over his defenses and nickle and dimeing him to death scenerio simply does not work without him being under a mandate to act like a mook. I thnk the point of the Spiderman-Firelord fight is precisely that Firelord was so arrogant he felt he could defeat Spiderman in "mook mode." Obviously, a reasonable argument as expressed elsewhere is that this isn't in Firelord's character. But my sense of the other fights we hear about Firelord in the early days is that he's the wrestler intended to lose and learn a lesson until his rehabilitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever I think Iron Man is in the class of those quintessential mortal heroes this can't happen to by design of their mythos. As long as his suit is on' date=' anyway. I didn't include him in the response to Snake Ghandi above because of his suit.[/quote'] On Iron Man's suit, for a long time it was explained that his suit had an electromagnetic force field riding along the chain mesh that made it so tough. IOW, he had a force field. Sounds to me like he's not getting bounced around inside the can if that is the case. Has this changed in the last decade or so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Yes. Thor Stunned him once, out of how many blows? Saying it's a regular thing is a bit much. Actually twice. He did it with Mjolnir in issue 306. In fact, that's the only solid hit I've found with Mjolnir. And I didn't mention 'regular'. I was simply asking whether Hulk could stun Firelord with a solid hit. And the answer is obviously 'yes'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever That's winning an objective. That's not beating down the other guy. Let's not get confused. That's winning the fight. I didn't ask if Rhino had ever beat down the other guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Ok' date=' you guys, I'm not sure I like where this is headed... [/quote'] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Well' date=' if team ups counts, then yes, Rhino has won fights, as part of the Sinister Syndicate. They beat Spider-man in the Deadly Foes of Spider-Man mini.[/quote'] Spider-Man != Ego the Living Planet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Yes. Thor Stunned him once, out of how many blows? Saying it's a regular thing is a bit much. I dunno. How many fights to a conclusion have they had? Most of them get interrupted or they just choose to stop before we see what the end result would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever They are claiming that Rhino isn't armor dependent. Two of my favorite comic book fights are where Juggernaut, out of armor, schools Colossus and Captain Britian. If Rhino's powers aren't in the Suit, surely thay can pint me to a drawing showing this. As far as Black Bolt, *shrug,* didn't know his costume was a focus. Your's and AgentX' feeble excuses that this isn't all a ploy to see them naked does not impress me! (PS - although AgentX' interest does surprise me!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Your's and AgentX' feeble excuses that this isn't all a ploy to see them naked does not impress me! (PS - although AgentX' interest does surprise me!) It would surprise me as well. [My point was that Black Bolt wears his costume all the time but that doesn't mean his power comes from it.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever I dunno. How many fights to a conclusion have they had? Most of them get interrupted or they just choose to stop before we see what the end result would be. No fights to conclusion. However, the time he Con Stunned Firelord in 232, he could've easily have followed up with a Mjolnir blow since approximately 3-5 seconds (the length of time needed to fall from the height of a tall apartment building to one body length off the street) passed before Firelord recovered. Obviously Thor's code of honor stopped him from taking advantage of a disadvantaged honorable foe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Spider-Man != Ego the Living Planet. And Firelord != Superman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever On Iron Man's suit, for a long time it was explained that his suit had an electromagnetic force field riding along the chain mesh that made it so tough. IOW, he had a force field. Sounds to me like he's not getting bounced around inside the can if that is the case. Has this changed in the last decade or so? I'm more concerned with the brain getting bounced around inside the skull than the body getting bounced around inside the suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever It means that we take you less seriously if you're not willing to back up your opinions. Actually, I think Snake Ghandi contributed one of the best arguments of his side on this - the nature of Spiderman as an iconic hero and the nature of his mythos. That is the real sort of argument. IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever I'm more concerned with the brain getting bounced around inside the skull than the body getting bounced around inside the suit. But this is comics. Force Fields mean your brain doesn't hemmorhage even if you get knocked back with great force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever I don't understand the need of people to personalize this. It's a freaking argument over characters, at least one of whom is almost certainly goofy and the other, while respected, is still subject to the commercial pressures of the craft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever But this is comics. Force Fields mean your brain doesn't hemmorhage even if you get knocked back with great force. Otherwise Doom would've died from the first hit that Thing put on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Re: Worst comic book superfight ever Your's and AgentX' feeble excuses that this isn't all a ploy to see them naked does not impress me! (PS - although AgentX' interest does surprise me!) Oh, excuse me. Just thinking about a Juggernaut - Colossus rematch. Only this time instead of a barroom brawl, it was naked Jello wrestling. Um, what were we talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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