Worst comic book superfight ever

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

What the heck was that about?

 

Just making sure that people heard me. After enough instances of repeating yourself around half a dozen times and still hearing people talk like you never said a damn thing, you start raising your voice.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

If he's referring to Gary' date=' you should read what Gary wrote, since his point is pretty much that punch count alone indicates Hulk and Rhino's worthiness as opponents in very much the same league. And hsi discussion, which I'm not so interested in personally, has nothing to do with indicating whether the panel you believe is a hard 10-count is such.[/quote']

 

So, let me get this straight:

 

* Gary is allowed to use artwork to count exact # of punches. He can do this to support an argument of his and nobody says smack about how 'we can't be sure of the exact # of punches artist could have left some out possibly pacing pacing yadda yadda'.

 

* I am not allowed to use artwork to count exact # of punches. I (supposedly) must accept that any ol' damn indeterminate # of extra punches that were never shown on the page actually happened, because of "pacing".

 

... you know, a emoticon just doesn't seem strong enough.

 

Like I said -- if that whole 'we can't count punches from artwork' point stands, then I'll just claim that Firelord actually needed 1000 punches from Thor before going down, the artist just skipped showing any of them because of "pacing". /irony off

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

> Your description of Surfer vs Thanos sounds quite different than Hulk vs.

> Rhino.

 

Except, of course, for the key element common to both -- the Rhino/Surfer always loses. Sometimes in just one punch.

 

> You portray Thanos as not calling on cosmic power and, as you say, laughing

> off Surfer. Clearly, we see nothing like that in Hulk vs. Rhino. We see fights

> that Rhino cannot, in the end, win, but Hulk apparently has to put some effort

> into it to put Rhino down.

 

One episode, just grabs the Rhino's horn and shoves his face into the dirt.

 

Other episode, lays the Rhino out with a single blow.

 

Some other fights, the Rhino's hung around a few pages before going down.

 

Likewise, some fights the Surfer actually lasts a couple pages, and other fights, Thanos just grabs him and starts wiping his butt with the Surfer's face.

 

Heck, we even have "beat the guy into a near-death coma" once for each -- Hulk did it to Rhino once, Thanos did it to Surfer once.

I saw the scans. Hulk clearly has to go to effort. It's not debatable. Whereas your point re Thanos is that he doesn't really care much when Surfer comes after him, there's no contest.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Just making sure that people heard me. After enough instances of repeating yourself around half a dozen times and still hearing people talk like you never said a damn thing' date=' you start raising your voice.[/quote']

When did this come up again? I don't see it.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So, let me get this straight:

 

* Gary is allowed to use artwork to count exact # of punches.

 

* I am not allowed to use artwork to count exact # of punches.

 

... you know, a emoticon just doesn't seem strong enough.

 

You're right about the icon, at least.

 

Remember earlier when I said that this argument might make sense if you could find a panel of a bunch of shadowy Thors or a Thor-colored whirlwind surrounding Firelord? I'm saying it again now.

 

Some artistic conventions are designed to show a character doing something really fast, or really often. The "bunch of shadowy versions of a character doing things in one panel" is one such convention that got its start, I believe, in old Johnny Quick comics. It's a time-honored art trick.

 

A bunch of shadowy Spideys attacking Firelord in one panel, therefore, is a symbolic representation of Spidey attacking Firelord a lot. It's an artistic shorthand. Your comparison here is a false one and has no merit unless you can show similar artistic conventions being used in a Thor vs. Firelord fight.

 

Tell your friend that, too.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So, let me get this straight:

 

* Gary is allowed to use artwork to count exact # of punches. He can do this to support an argument of his and nobody says smack about how 'we can't be sure of the exact # of punches artist could have left some out possibly pacing pacing yadda yadda'.

 

* I am not allowed to use artwork to count exact # of punches. I (supposedly) must accept that any ol' damn indeterminate # of extra punches that were never shown on the page actually happened, because of "pacing".

 

... you know, a emoticon just doesn't seem strong enough.

 

Like I said -- if that whole 'we can't count punches from artwork' point stands, then I'll just claim that Firelord actually needed 1000 punches from Thor before going down, the artist just skipped showing any of them because of "pacing". /irony off

You're missing the point completely.

 

Gary counted visible punches. He didn't claim, as you do, that these were necessarily the only punches. But using what he could visibly see he could clearly see Hulk hit Rhino many times, not just one-punches and not just two punches.

 

I have NEVER nor to my knowledge has anyone else said that Spiderman landed FEWER than 10 blows on Firelord.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Remember earlier when I said that this argument might make sense if you could find a panel of a bunch of shadowy Thors or a Thor-colored whirlwind surrounding Firelord? I'm saying it again now.

 

Some artistic conventions are designed to show a character doing something really fast, or really often.

 

So, Spider-Man is the Flash now? He does dozens of actions in a blur beyond the power of the eye to see, in the space of a single panel?

 

I suppose that going from 'blatant double standard' merely to 'claiming superpowers for Spidey well above what he actually has' is an improvement, technically speaking... but it still don't do anything to cross that gap between 'not credible' and 'credible'.

 

The 'artistic conventions' to which you refer are traditionally used only for speedsters. If Quicksilver, Northstar, the Flash, etc. are moving in a blur, I'll accept that God knows any # of actions I can't see might be going on during that panel.

 

Spider-Man? Is. Not. A. Speedster.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Gary counted visible punches. He didn't claim' date=' as you do, that these were necessarily the only punches.[/quote']

 

If he's saying that those are all the punches Thor ever landed on Firelord, then yes, he is indeed claiming that those are the only punches.

 

Me, I want all those extra punches that exist only in my imagination to also be added to the tally. Never mind that I have absolutely no proof, I but merely mutter the magic words "the artist didn't draw them because of pacing" and prest-o change-o, they must be admitted!

 

/sarcasm off

 

I have NEVER nor to my knowledge has anyone else said that Spiderman landed FEWER than 10 blows on Firelord.

 

No, no one else has said that. Not even me. I'm just not letting in any *more* punches until somebody can come up with something better than muttering "pacing" or "artistic conventions" (that traditionally apply only to a character type -- speedster -- that Spidey is not) to prove that they're there.

 

If I'm not allowed to make up whatever 'evidence' I feel like -- and I'm not -- then nobody else is gettin' that privilege either. (edit -- movin' this into a separate post so that people will see it better)

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Let me re-iterate a basic point:

 

For the entire duration of this discussion, I have been allowed to use only what I can explicitly, non-ambiguously, show drawn on the page.

 

Therefore, that is the same standard everybody who wants to try and counter-argue me will fly under.

 

And if they don't, they can accept being upbraided for blatant double-standardism, or they can kiss off.

 

Nobody but nobody is getting the privilege of 'ambiguous artwork' or 'the artist didn't have room to draw it' if I don't get it.

 

PS -- some people will probably try to remind folks that I have allowed in other 'genre conventions' for characters before, so it's really odd of me that I don't allow in 'using your imagination on the artwork'.

 

Here's the thing. I allowed in those genre conventions as "Everyman Powers" for just about every damn character in comics. Buildings that don't collapse when lifted by the corners, costumes that don't get wrecked, hairdos and makeup that don't smudge... these are benefits distributed far and wide across comicdom and the argument, not restricted to Spider-Man alone.

 

Furthermore, they're things we can *SEE*. The costume clearly isn't getting smudged. The building clearly isn't falling apart. Etc. Anybody can look at the page and non-ambiguously see it in action.

 

So I am still being entirely consistent with my 'I gotta see it on the damn page' standard when I allow those genre conventions in, and yet don't want to allow in ambiguous artwork "interpretations" (i.e -- imagining up ****.)

[Gary]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Oh, by all means let's take the literal number of blows on screen. That makes it so much worse for Chucky.

 

That would mean that Chucky believes:

 

1) Hulk and Thor are equal in Str roughly.

 

2) Spiderman can KO Rhino in exactly 4 punches, something Hulk has failed to do on occasion.

 

By Chucky's own logic, Spiderman punches as hard as Hulk.

 

Game, Set, Match.

 

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Oh, by all means let's take the literal number of blows on screen. That makes it so much worse for Chucky.

 

That would mean that Chucky believes:

 

1) Hulk and Thor are equal in Str roughly.

 

2) Spiderman can KO Rhino in exactly 4 punches, something Hulk has failed to do on occasion.

 

By Chucky's own logic, Spiderman punches as hard as Hulk.

 

Game, Set, Match.

 

 

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

*looks at the quote*

 

One, the idea that Spidey punches as hard as the Hulk is ludicrous, given that he's repeatedly failed to 4-punch-KO everybody from the Green Goblin to the Sin-Eater. So, 80+% of the Spider-Man Rogue's Gallery, tougher than the Rhino and tough enough to take on the Hulk then? I think not.

 

And two, the Hulk has on at least one occasion KO'ed the Rhino in one.

 

Game, set, nothin'.

 

Given the consistent record of the Rhino getting pounded down by the Hulk, sometimes in as little as one punch, the one scan of the Rhino withstanding said punch like it ain't no thang would appear to be an instance of the Hulk really bottoming out on a damage roll. Which does happen. Occasionally.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So, Spider-Man is the Flash now? He does dozens of actions in a blur beyond the power of the eye to see, in the space of a single panel?

 

I suppose that going from 'blatant double standard' merely to 'claiming superpowers for Spidey well above what he actually has' is an improvement, technically speaking... but it still don't do anything to cross that gap between 'not credible' and 'credible'.

 

Yeah, jumping around a guy real fast and hitting him a lot is a power Spidey has never shown before.

 

The caption in that panel and the art combine to make it clear what's going on. You can deny it if you want, I don't care; it just makes your argument look foolish.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So, Spider-Man is the Flash now? He does dozens of actions in a blur beyond the power of the eye to see, in the space of a single panel?

 

I suppose that going from 'blatant double standard' merely to 'claiming superpowers for Spidey well above what he actually has' is an improvement, technically speaking... but it still don't do anything to cross that gap between 'not credible' and 'credible'.

 

The 'artistic conventions' to which you refer are traditionally used only for speedsters. If Quicksilver, Northstar, the Flash, etc. are moving in a blur, I'll accept that God knows any # of actions I can't see might be going on during that panel.

 

Spider-Man? Is. Not. A. Speedster.

That's just silly. A blur of motion means a blur of motion.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yeah' date=' jumping around a guy real fast and hitting him a lot is a power Spidey has never shown before.[/quote']

 

If all it takes to be a Quicksilver-class speedster is to jump around a guy while hitting him real fast, then everybody from Daredevil on up is apparently tapping into the Speed Force now.

 

Spidey -- faster than normal human? Yes. Faster than most trained martial artists? Yes. Fast enough to qualify for Quicksilver-class "dozens of actions faster than the eye can see, and drawn as a big ol' blur on one panel?" **** no.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Oh, by all means let's take the literal number of blows on screen. That makes it so much worse for Chucky.

 

That would mean that Chucky believes:

 

1) Hulk and Thor are equal in Str roughly.

 

2) Spiderman can KO Rhino in exactly 4 punches, something Hulk has failed to do on occasion.

 

By Chucky's own logic, Spiderman punches as hard as Hulk.

 

Game, Set, Match.

 

ChuckG, reflecting this for your benefit.

 

Gary's post is exactly my point - as he's counting just what is seen, if we take that literally (and he isn't necessarily, but he's positing as a minimum, which is of course valid), then all the worse for your case.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

That's just silly. A blur of motion means a blur of motion.

 

Yes, but a blur of motion that can hide lots and lots of punches in a single panel, that is the traditional privilege only of true speedsters. Everybody else, we just accept the guy's gettin' smacked around half a dozen times or so in one panel. Oh, wait, how many shots did I guesstimate for that panel? Four. Topside, six.

 

So even if we accept -- for the sake of argument -- that the 'Maximum Spider' panel in question has Spidey punching Firelord twice as often as is actually able to be drawn, that still means Firelord went down in <15 punches.

 

10 punches vs. 15 doesn't exactly make a material difference in the anti-SM-vs-FL argument. It's a point of detail, yes, but it doesn't actually be large enough to change the main gist.

 

Fug, I could spot them *three* punches for every one shown, and we're still less than 20. (12 -- three times four -- in the one panel, 6 outside of it.) This *barely* starts to shift the odds here.

[Gary]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

*looks at the quote*

 

One, the idea that Spidey punches as hard as the Hulk is ludicrous, given that he's repeatedly failed to 4-punch-KO everybody from the Green Goblin to the Sin-Eater. So, 80+% of the Spider-Man Rogue's Gallery, tougher than the Rhino and tough enough to take on the Hulk then? I think not.

 

And two, the Hulk has on at least one occasion KO'ed the Rhino in one.

 

Game, set, nothin'.

 

Given the consistent record of the Rhino getting pounded down by the Hulk, sometimes in as little as one punch, the one scan of the Rhino withstanding said punch like it ain't no thang would appear to be an instance of the Hulk really bottoming out on a damage roll. Which does happen. Occasionally.

 

 

Spidey holds back normally. And Chuck apparently missed the 5 scans that were posted of Rhino shrugging off Hulk.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

If all it takes to be a Quicksilver-class speedster is to jump around a guy while hitting him real fast, then everybody from Daredevil on up is apparently tapping into the Speed Force now.

 

Spidey -- faster than normal human? Yes. Faster than most trained martial artists? Yes. Fast enough to qualify for Quicksilver-class "dozens of actions faster than the eye can see, and drawn as a big ol' blur on one panel?" **** no.

 

*This* argument might make sense if all panels represented the exact same passage of time.

 

The caption tells us what Spidey is doing, and the art shows us. It doesn't tell us how long he spent doing it. He doesn't have to be moving as fast as Quicksilver to hit a guy a lot in a time-compressed panel.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Spidey holds back normally. And Chuck apparently missed the 5 scans that were posted of Rhino shrugging off Hulk.

 

Apparently.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Gary's post is exactly my point - as he's counting just what is seen' date=' if we take that literally (and he isn't necessarily, but he's positing as a minimum, which is of course valid), then all the worse for your case.[/quote']

 

I alerady answered this, but since you ignored that answer, I repeat it again.

 

If we use this logic, we must do several things, one of them blatantly incorrect and the others just very very silly

 

a) We must ignore the fact that on at least one, and possibly more occasions, the Hulk has KO'ed the Rhino with a single blow.

 

We must pretend that the Green Goblin, who takes a crapload more than four punches from Spidey before going down, is therefore tougher than the Rhino.

 

c) We must apply to every other Spidey rogue who's taken more than four punches from Spidey in a single fight -- which is, over the vastness of time, practically all of them.

 

So apparently either the Rhino is the wimpiest dude around, or else the vast majority of Spidey's line-up is tougher than a guy who can survive being beaten on by the Hulk. Obviously, neither alternative can logically stand up for a second.

 

Which leaves us with... inconsistent writing.

 

So far, all we are proving is that some really inconsistent writing exists in comics -- which was, natch, the point *I* was trying to prove in the first place.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Apparently.

 

No, I didn't miss the scan.

 

But apparently, you guys missed the part where I listed to (or, more accurately, lnked to a list of) virtually every *OTHER* time the Hulk and the Rhino have fought, complete with descriptions of how it ended and how long it took the Hulk. Which in at least one case was 'the Rhino got one-punched'. (snip, see correction below)

 

So, basically, you guys just cherry-picked the worst-ever showing for the Hulk against the Rhino and tried to use it as the baseline. Cheap. Very cheap.

 

There's also that scan I posted of the direct strength comparision between the Gray Hulk and Spider-Man -- which ended with "Gray Hulk is vastly superior to the point where Spidey is just left gaping in awe".

[Gary]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I alerady answered this, but since you ignored that answer, I repeat it again.

 

If we use this logic, we must do several things, one of them blatantly incorrect and the others just very very silly

 

a) We must ignore the fact that on at least one, and possibly more occasions, the Hulk has KO'ed the Rhino with a single blow.

 

We must pretend that the Green Goblin, who takes a crapload more than four punches from Spidey before going down, is therefore tougher than the Rhino.

 

c) We must apply to every other Spidey rogue who's taken more than four punches from Spidey in a single fight -- which is, over the vastness of time, practically all of them.

 

So apparently either the Rhino is the wimpiest dude around, or else the vast majority of Spidey's line-up is tougher than a guy who can survive being beaten on by the Hulk. Obviously, neither alternative can logically stand up for a second.

 

Which leaves us with... inconsistent writing.

 

So far, all we are proving is that some really inconsistent writing exists in comics -- which was, natch, the point *I* was trying to prove in the first place.

 

 

Or d) that Spidey doesn't go all out against most foes.

[Gary]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

No, I didn't miss the scan.

 

But apparently, you guys missed the part where I listed to (or, more accurately, lnked to a list of) virtually every *OTHER* time the Hulk and the Rhino have fought, complete with descriptions of how it ended and how long it took the Hulk. Which in at least one case was 'the Rhino got one-punched'. Fug, Spidey was even a *witness* to that one case.

 

So, basically, you guys just cherry-picked the worst-ever showing for the Hulk against the Rhino and tried to use it as the baseline. Cheap. Very cheap.

 

There's also that scan I posted of the direct strength comparision between the Gray Hulk and Spider-Man -- which ended with "Gray Hulk is vastly superior to the point where Spidey is just left gaping in awe".

 

 

Why is Chuck ranting about 'the' scan? Proof positive that he missed the 5 scans.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

*This* argument might make sense if all panels represented the exact same passage of time.

 

The caption tells us what Spidey is doing, and the art shows us. It doesn't tell us how long he spent doing it.

 

Which only takes us right back to *another* point you and others have failed to adequately address -- which is 'if it really took so long, WTF did Firelord just stand there?'

 

If Firelord wasn't Stunned on the first or second hit, then arguing that the fight went on a long time is arguing that Firelord just stood there like a dumb mook for minutes on end.

 

And yes, this applies even if you assume that Firelord swung back, with punches that were never shown -- even the single most retarded version of the Hulk is still smart enough to switch to other attacks (like thunder-claps) if he's repeatedly failing to connect with a punch, so to assume that Firelord is dumber than that only concedes that yes, he was really forced to job out like a mook by the writer to give Spidey the win.

 

And if you argue that Firelord *was* Stunned on the first or second hit... well, that makes the "# of punches" argument totally irrelevant, don't it.