Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

I think we have different definitions of NPC. The NPCs in CKC, while generally weaker than equivalent point heroes, aren't that much weaker. And some of them are built relatively efficiently.

 

What you're describing is cannon fodder, not NPC. And while low end undead should be cannon fodder, high end shouldn't. They should be credible opponents in their own right.

 

No, Cannon Fodder would be less powerful than PC's.

 

 

I'm not saying they're weak. I'm saying they'd be weaker than most Hero _Players_ would be happy with their 800 pt PCs being. Because that's the two edged sword of NPCdom: Points are for players... and so is point efficiency.

 

(And incidently, NPC heroes are usually point inefficient too.)

 

 

An inefficiently built 800pt Lich is still a credible threat. It is not, however, a skeletal [insert name of comic book supersorceror here].

[Pendaran]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

It's the CU that says Eurostar is the most dangerous in Europe and possibly the world. CKC page 66 and CU page 110.

 

We're only at possibly the world now? I thought they were definitely the most dangerous in the world. Are we doing semantic backtracking now?

 

Because if we're doing that, Batman called the Ten Eyed Man the most dangerous man of all time.

[Pendaran]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

That would be an exceptionally 'healthy' number of 800 pt heroes. Especially since there seems to be no indication that there is close to this many.

 

 

To restate:10-15, would be healthy. And if every notable country has a figure like Vedun from Russia, and I'd find it odd if they wouldn't, since he was a respected adjunct, but not, say, leader of or greatest hero of all time from, the Russian national superteam, I'd expect that there are that many. Vedun not being noted as "the most powerful dude ever evar"

 

Vedun is in fact referred to as "one of Russia's most effective defenders" Note the /one of/. And also /Russia/ not /the world/

[Gary]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

We're only at possibly the world now? I thought they were definitely the most dangerous in the world. Are we doing semantic backtracking now?

 

Because if we're doing that, Batman called the Ten Eyed Man the most dangerous man of all time.

 

 

CKC says world. CU says Europe and possibly the world.

[Pendaran]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

So, basically, you can't give me firm, consistent agreement from the source material at that.

 

By the way are you going to answer yet?

 

Given the villain stats and so forth of the CU, what /to you/ as a concrete number would be a healthy number of 800 point heroes, and an exceptionally healthy number?

[Gary]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

To restate:10-15, would be healthy. And if every notable country has a figure like Vedun from Russia, and I'd find it odd if they wouldn't, since he was a respected adjunct, but not, say, leader of or greatest hero of all time from, the Russian national superteam, I'd expect that there are that many. Vedun not being noted as "the most powerful dude ever evar"

 

Vedun is in fact referred to as "one of Russia's most effective defenders" Note the /one of/.

 

 

Even if every single hero on the planet banded together, we have 960 mostly 350 or less pointers (some of whom were already killed). Not a good matchup vs 125 respawning 800 pt undead.

[Gary]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

So, basically, you can't give me firm, consistent agreement from the source material at that.

 

By the way are you going to answer yet?

 

Given the villain stats and so forth of the CU, what /to you/ as a concrete number would be a healthy number of 800 point heroes, and an exceptionally healthy number?

 

 

Each continent might have 0-4. I wouldn't think Europe would have more than 1-2 given how Eurostar is portrayed. Maybe 8-10 on the entire planet.

[Pendaran]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

How odd then that Vedun is referred to only as one of Russia's most effective defender's and not the world's.

 

 

Even if every single hero on the planet banded together, we have 960 mostly 350 or less pointers (some of whom were already killed). Not a good matchup vs 125 respawning 800 pt undead.

 

And they would have no supplemental help from armies, no PRIMUS or UNTIL backing, no chance to gain help from their backers if mystical, contact Arcadia if connected to it, Atlantis if connected to it, Gods if connected to them, Alien allies should they have them, make any kind of plans to face them, no, they would just Warhammer style face them arranged into neat little units to face the other guy's neat little units because THAT is of course how it always goes in comics.

 

Everyone would arrange to meet in the same tidy battlefield and advance one click at a time.

[Pendaran]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

Each continent might have 0-4. I wouldn't think Europe would have more than 1-2 given how Eurostar is portrayed. Maybe 8-10 on the entire planet.

 

Perhaps, like other posts of mine you haven't quite addressed the points of, you're just not getting the question.

 

You. What number do you think there should be of people at that point total in the Champs U before you agreed it was healthy enough to face the threats before it.

 

That has been the repeated question, and you have refused to answer it over and over, as though perhaps incapable. There isn't any point to this discussion if you won't give direct answers to question given, but pretend that you do anyway.

 

How many times do I have to ask this question before you will answer it?

[Pendaran]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

I mean, certainly in the Great Darkness saga, once they realized what they were facing, they didn't mad scramble to find what allies and supplementary plans they could, and go so far as to get powered up by Highfather of all people.

 

Oh, wait, they did..

 

No, they lined up in neat little rows and waited for Darkseid to pick an empty block of space for everyone to rush at each other in.

[Gary]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

And they would have no supplemental help from armies, no PRIMUS or UNTIL backing, no chance to gain help from their backers if mystical, contact Arcadia if connected to it, Atlantis if connected to it, Gods if connected to them, Alien allies should they have them, make any kind of plans to face them, no, they would just Warhammer style face them arranged into neat little units to face the other guy's neat little units because THAT is of course how it always goes in comics.

 

Everyone would arrange to meet in the same tidy battlefield and advance one click at a time.

 

 

No, I don't know why you keep bringing Warhammer into this unless it's how you regularly conduct superfights.

 

Hint: Please stop pushing your Warhammer fetish onto others.

 

It'd be a big swirling battle except that any losses on the hero's side stay dead whereas destruction of an undead is a temporary inconvenience. And that's not even factoring in Takofanes himself who could be wiping out armies at a time with very little risk to himself.

[Gary]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

Perhaps, like other posts of mine you haven't quite addressed the points of, you're just not getting the question.

 

You. What number do you think there should be of people at that point total in the Champs U before you agreed it was healthy enough to face the threats before it.

 

That has been the repeated question, and you have refused to answer it over and over, as though perhaps incapable. There isn't any point to this discussion if you won't give direct answers to question given, but pretend that you do anyway.

 

How many times do I have to ask this question before you will answer it?

 

 

All it would take would be 2 1500-2000 pointers.

 

There couldn't be enough 800 pointers on the planet given the CU paremeters to make enough of a difference.

[Gary]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

I mean, certainly in the Great Darkness saga, once they realized what they were facing, they didn't mad scramble to find what allies and supplementary plans they could, and go so far as to get powered up by Highfather of all people.

 

Oh, wait, they did..

 

No, they lined up in neat little rows and waited for Darkseid to pick an empty block of space for everyone to rush at each other in.

 

 

There you go again with your Warhammer fetish.

[Pendaran]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

You're the one insisting everyone meet each other in a confined space to mass rush each other in numbers, but good job on devolving to a level of personal insult of repeatedly telling me I have a fetish instead of addressing points, that speaks volumes.

 

But this has been a thread of you not addressing points on several ocassions, so hey.

 

I mean, it's far easier to do that than actually give responses, apparently.

 

You're the one cursing everything you don't like as PIS, ragging on what are classic storylines in comics, and simply /not even responding/ to repeated points.

 

So what else can I compare your statements to? Actual comic books? That seems to be beneath you to try and run a comic book superhero game like.

[Gary]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

Interestingly, the United States is supposed to have 1 person with powers per 100,000-1,000,000 people. If we average it out to 1 per 500,000, we get 600 people with powers, or 10% of the world's population of powered people.

 

Of these 600, 240 would be sufficiently powerful to be heroes, and 96 would actually be heroes according to CU. And Destroyer and Takofanes between them probably killed 30-40 heroes.

 

So 1/3 or more of all the heroes in the US got wiped out in 2 incidents.

[Pendaran]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

So 1/3 or more of all the heroes in the US got wiped out in 2 incidents.

 

And yet somehow it doesn't say that there numbers weren't replaced, or that the world fell into chaos in the interim.

 

Right, right "PIS! PIS!"

 

I'm curious, do you /try/ and approximate the feel of comics when running a comic book rpg, or do you just mostly curse the lot of them out as illogical and beneath your sense of consistency?

[Gary]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

You're the one insisting everyone meet each other in a confined space to mass rush each other in numbers, but good job on devolving to a level of personal insult of repeatedly telling me I have a fetish instead of addressing points, that speaks volumes.

 

But this has been a thread of you not addressing points on several ocassions, so hey.

 

I mean, it's far easier to do that than actually give responses, apparently.

 

 

It seems your standard operating procedure is to try and act like a victim when contradicted. Very sad.

 

And please point out a single time where I mentioned 'confined space' and 'mass rush each other in numbers'. You're the only one who's brought up Warhammer, and it's rather ridiculous.

 

I have been giving responses. You just don't happen to like those responses.

[Gary]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

And yet somehow it doesn't say that there numbers weren't replaced, or that the world fell into chaos in the interim.

 

Right, right "PIS! PIS!"

 

I'm curious, do you /try/ and approximate the feel of comics when running a comic book rpg, or do you just mostly curse the lot of them out as illogical and beneath your sense of consistency?

 

 

Of course I do. And comics usually have some heroes that are at or close to the level of Master Villains.

 

Do you care at all about internal logical consistency in your games?

[Pendaran]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

You've yet to respond to the notion of crazy ideas like plans, armies, allies, supernatural backers and the like.

 

You've yet to respond to the notion of things like the Great Darkness Saga for how their plots went, and why it would so horrifyingly offend you if Takofanes were to lose in a similar fashion.

 

You've yet to respond to the notion of things like there being extant comic plots where the heroes do call on the aforementioned to back them in a time where they would otherwise lose.

 

Hell, against Mageddon, the JLA had to give superpowers to all of planet earth just to win. That aint normally expressed in someone's powers.

 

You seem completely incapable of accepting the notion that maybe Master Villains like Takofanes are there to be defeated in ways like that. Despite comics. Despite the coventions of them, and despite that this is a supers game. That maybe he's statted the way he is in order to represent being that.

 

By the way, Tetsuronin is almost 1200 points, and is called one of Earth's most powerful superheroes, not Earth's most powerful superhero. I am thusly curious how you know for dead certain there aint more powerful than him out there.

[Pendaran]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

And just to say? Most epic villains worth their salt know that that's the kind of crap heroes pull in response to them, which is why they generally try and wait to attack until they think they have something resembling a surefire plan with contingencies for something like, say, the heroes convincing the collected population of Arcadia to take to the field.

 

Or, there's a reason Destroyer felt the world was challenging enough to want to have years and years and years to improve himself.

[Vorsch]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

As to comics the thing is, apart from plot device powers or being cosmic entities, most if not all Marvel and DC master vilains are actually weaker than the people they are opposed by.

 

Darkseid can probabily be taken by superman or doctor fate or Highfather on a good day

 

And no vilain has the raw power of Hal Jordan as a GL, even evil GLs

 

Doctor dooms armour is weaker than Iron mans

 

Almost no one is more powerful than Thor/Beta ray Bill

 

The reason the heroes win is that they actually are better at the very top end than there oponents, vilains get cosmic whatsits or use trickery or weaknesses to beat them.

[Gary]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

You've yet to respond to the notion of crazy ideas like plans' date=' armies, allies, supernatural backers and the like.[/quote']

 

 

I have responded. You just haven't been listening, but were busy ranting.

 

All the armies, allies, etc aren't going to do much if your losses stay dead while theirs come back. Or if Takofanes decides to simply mind control an army for himself. Or unleashes an army of ghosts who armies (and most supers) simply can't deal with.

 

 

You've yet to respond to the notion of things like the Great Darkness Saga for how their plots went, and why it would so horrifyingly offend you if Takofanes were to lose in a similar fashion.

 

You mean by the heroes getting his respect and then having him call off the dogs? That may work with Darkseid, but Takofanes doesn't operate that way.

 

Darkseid was 'defeated' by negotiation. Takofanes has that inconvenient 25 pt Wants to Kill or Enslave Everyone on Earth Psych Lim.

 

 

You've yet to respond to the notion of things like there being extant comic plots where the heroes do call on the aforementioned to back them in a time where they would otherwise lose.

 

Hell, against Mageddon, the JLA had to give superpowers to all of planet earth just to win. That aint normally expressed in someone's powers.

 

Would have to have heroes greater than the ones shown in CU.

 

 

You seem completely incapable of accepting the notion that maybe Master Villains like Takofanes are there to be defeated in ways like that. Despite comics. Despite the coventions of them, and despite that this is a supers game. That maybe he's statted the way he is in order to represent being that.

 

 

Then stat him out in a believable way. Or have a believable personage who can legitimately stop him. Or the other MVs out there.

 

 

By the way, Tetsuronin is almost 1200 points, and is called one of Earth's most powerful superheroes, not Earth's most powerful superhero. I am thusly curious how you know for dead certain there aint more powerful than him out there.

 

If there are significantly more powerful (2 in the 1500-2000 pt range), I wouldn't have quibbled. However, you were the one apparently insisting that 'scads' and 'healthy numbers' of 500-800 pt heroes are enough by themselves to stop someone like Takofanes.

 

Incidentally, you still haven't explained how 'scads' and 'healthy numbers' equates to Europe being completely terrified of Eurostar.

[Pendaran]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

Would have to have heroes greater than the ones shown in CU.

 

Was done by Animal Man, the technology of Wonder Woman's people, Black Lightning, and a guy from practically another universe. Animal Man, if you're saying no one is more powerful than him in the CU, that's hilarious. Black Lightning, also low on the totem pole. Wonder Woman's people's tech? Wouldn't put it past Arcadia. And a guy from practically another universe? The DCU doesn't have regular access to Wonderworld, so they had help well beyond what they can normally do.

 

The wacky notion of scrambling for allies and help again.

 

Incidentally, you still haven't explained how 'scads' and 'healthy numbers' equates to Europe being completely terrified of Eurostar.

 

And you haven't explained you fobbing off from saying the world being terrified of them, so that's ok. Nor what it would mean if the totals of not simply implied and unstatted, but statted to be examples among many heroes at or over their point level break, let's say, 25-30. And they got together to kick Eurostar's face in.

 

 

Or have a believable personage who can legitimately stop him.

 

There are no believable personages that can stop things like Mageddon, Zero Hour Parallax, Pre Crisis Darkseid, Galactus and so forth, as far as innate power, and yet, they get and got stopped routinely. How is that?

 

Darkseid can probabily be taken by superman or doctor fate or Highfather on a good day

 

Pre crisis Darkseid would beat up Superman for sport, actually.

 

And no vilain has the raw power of Hal Jordan as a GL, even evil GLs

 

Really? That why multiple GLs had to fight the retconned Parallax and barely won?

 

Is that why Despero stomped all over a JLA that included Hal Jordan? Despero being not so much a cosmic being.

 

Almost no one is more powerful than Thor/Beta ray Bill

 

Do you want a list of all the people who've beaten or matched them? It's rather long.

[Gary]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

Was done by Animal Man, the technology of Wonder Woman's people, Black Lightning, and a guy from practically another universe. Animal Man, if you're saying no one is more powerful than him in the CU, that's hilarious. Black Lightning, also low on the totem pole. Wonder Woman's people's tech? Wouldn't put it past Arcadia. And a guy from practically another universe? The DCU doesn't have regular access to Wonderworld, so they had help well beyond what they can normally do.

 

The wacky notion of scrambling for allies and help again.

 

If they gave superpowers to everybody on Planet Earth, then it's way beyond what the CU is capable of.

 

 

 

And you haven't explained you fobbing off from saying the world being terrified of them, so that's ok. Nor what it would mean if the totals of not simply implied and unstatted, but statted to be examples among many heroes at or over their point level break, let's say, 25-30. And they got together to kick Eurostar's face in.

 

I didn't fob off anything. I explained by page number and source where the quotes came from.

 

Please show me (and I mean a source and page number) where your 'scads' and 'healthy' numbers of 500-800 pt heroes kicked Eurostar's face in.

 

For someone who whines so much about other people 'ducking' questions, you sure duck a lot yourself.

 

 

 

There are no believable personages that can stop things like Mageddon, Zero Hour Parallax, Pre Crisis Darkseid, Galactus and so forth, as far as innate power, and yet, they get and got stopped routinely. How is that?

 

Sure there are. The number of Plot Device level characters in DC is truly astounding. The Phantom Stranger by himself can probably deal with any of them.

[Vorsch]

Re: Is defeating a Master Villain sometimes counterproductive?

 

And pre crisis darkside would be toasted by silverage superman

 

And i bet all those people who beat up Thor eventually get taken down by him in the end HTH, not talking Surtur or Ymir here.

 

Not up on Parallax but i bet hes closer to cosmic entity than PC material.

 

And Orions destined to kill darkseid and hes physically weaker than superman.

 

Galactus gets beaten but not directly but he is a cosmic entity.

 

Menton Dr Destroyer and Takofanes are portrayed as powerful characters but not actual gods, they could turn up and you could fight them directly at which point every hero writen would die in the first phase.

 

all can get 50d attacks if VPP wher used as they could be, well maybe not menton but no one can withstand his mental powers.

 

Im just making the point that Marvel/DC major characters are Top Tier not massively overmatched.