Damage based on Ammo

[Mazeus Xenon]

I want to develop a sci-fi weapon that has multiple kinds of ammo that can be loaded. This means each shot does damage based on the ammo and has little to do with the weapon. I am sure this would be best defined as making the gun a multipower and make it so a slot can only be used based on the ammo loaded (right?).

 

However, what I am thinking is to base a pistol, rifle, and auto-rifle (an other) versions of the weapon and the damage is based on the explosive round(s) loaded into the weapon. It would define a base for the ammo (2d6 RKA or whatever) and then have the Rifle add damage and accuracy, and the auto-rifle add a little damage and autofire (though naked advantages). This way the damage is directly related to the ammo and the weapon just allow a ranged attack with a few bells-n-whistles added. Defining the ammo would also allow different AP to be used, rather than squeezing them into a multipower and possibly having one slot be over-the-top and another to be not so useful when all is said and done!

 

I think the ammo side of things would also work better when applying autofire, as you could have an autofire of 5 shots with five completely different kinds of ammo then... or something like that!

 

Anywho, let me know what you folks think - thanks!

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Damage based on Ammo

 

This weapon can utilize varying types of ammunition, including "shredder" rounds (for lightly-armored infantry), and armor-piercing HE rounds (for moderately, and heavily armored infantry). This weapons also includes a built-in flashlight for low-light situations. Slightly modified versions of the MA5B's barrel can be made to support a silencer for covert missions where both power, and discretion is required.

 

The MA5B Rifle is the latest model of the MA series. The MA3, and MA2Bs were the standard rifles in 2525, but the newest model, the MA5B, is the current standard Marine rifle, and is one of the most versitile weapons in the Marine's arsenal.

 

19 MA5B Assault Rifle 1d6+1/2 RKA, Autofire 10 (+1), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Charges (60 rnds w/10 clips, +1) (88 Active Points); OAF (Two Handed Weapon, -1 1/2), STR Minimum (12, STR Does Not Add Damage, -1), Limited Range (1/2 Maximum Range, -1/2), Beam (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4).

 

23 MA5B APEX Ammunition: RKA 2d6, Armor Piercing (+1/2), Explosive (+1/2), Autofire 10 (+1), Charges (60 rnds w/10 clips, +1), (Active Cost: 120 points.); Burnout 11- (-3/4), OAF (Two Handed Weapon, -1 1/2), STR Minimum (12, STR Does Not Add Damage, -1), Limited Range (1/2 Maximum Range, -1/2), Beam (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4).

 

31 Flashlight Attachment: Sight Group Images, +4 to PER Rolls (22 Active Points); OAF (Integrated Flashlight with MA5B, not removable, -1 1/2), Only to Create Light (-1), No Range (-1/2) (total cost: 8 points) plus Integrated Battery: End Reserve, (30 END, 5 REC); OIF (-1/2) (total cost: 23)

 

This is how I did it - effectively I built a modular system; you write up each indiviual ammo clip and it creates a 'new power' - similar to what you're saying. Depending on how you want to cost it ou, you can do it this way (which I based on how Steve did it in some other book of his I own) or you can do it as a Multi-Power. I liked the idea of having fully developed clips rather than the more obvious MP. Don't know why.

 

Also, using the modular theory you can build multiple attachments and slap them on as you need too (flashlights, view finders, etc.). I can do it as a MP if you'd like - what all ammo types were you looking for?

[Mazeus Xenon]

Re: Damage based on Ammo

 

Actually, just after I posted this an idea came to me. Your idea I did consider but I thought would be too clunky for me - nothing wrong with it, I just wanted something more streamlined... or whatever... I think you'll understand when you see what I am talking about...

 

Anyway,

What I am planning is to define each shell as a separate power. This way I can have any level of power from something as simply as a Flash vs. Hearing to a Killing Attack with a Drain, NND, and AoE effect (well, maybe not but you get the idea).

 

So, what I did with the "gun" was to make it a naked advantage to add "Ranged" to the shell. The Rifle adds a little damage to the effect and the autofire add autofire as well. The shells have no range to their power, so in theory one could use them in HTH, although I am not 100% sure I want to allow that (-1/2 Lim to only use with the gun? I dunno...). This would also allow me to make a Grenade Launcher or Personal Missile Launcher and have multiple kinds of Grenades and Missiles that could be used with single delivery device, rather than developing an enormous Multipower and have to cover all the bases wihin a specific AP range.

 

If you are interested in my final definition, let me know and I can post it here!

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Damage based on Ammo

 

*stares into space, ponders* Sounds like what you built is a mortar and called it a rifle. Fair nuff. Please post, I'd be curious to see the build. While it would lack the flavor of a rifle for me, personally, I could certainly adapt it to an MI unit as an SMML (Shoulder Mounted Missile Launcher).

 

Thanks, MZ.

[Mazeus Xenon]

Re: Damage based on Ammo

 

Basically, yeah - it seemed to be the best for my idea. I'll post it when I have finally ironed out all the details!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Damage based on Ammo

 

Here's what I would do:

 

Pistol: 2D6 RKA (30AP)

Rifle: 3D6 RKA (45AP)

SMG (or auto-rifle): 4D6 RKA (60AP)

 

just jumping up in full D6s 'cuz it's easier to type.

 

Ammo: 60 Point Multipower Pool [all slots are Naked Advantages]

1) Auto Fire Mode: Autofire for up to 60AP, SMG Only

2) Explosive Rounds: Explosion for up to 60AP

3) Flash Round: 4D6 Sight Flash, Linked: Gun

4) RPG Round: Area Of Effect for up to 60AP

etc...

 

Basically you choose your Weapon (one of the 3) and you choose your Ammo Pack (the Multipower, which slots you have in your MP are what ammo you have on hand). Add Limitations as appropriate (Focus, Real Weapon, Beam, STR Min, etc...)

 

Add Charges/Clips as appropriate to the type of weapon you're carrying:

Pistol Ammo Pack - each slot takes 12 Charges, 2 Clips each.

Rifle/SMG Ammo Pack - each slot takes 30 Charges, 2 Clips each.

or whatever is appropriate.

 

Edit:

If you wanted to get completely modular but the Base Weapon as the highest version:

Weapon X - 4D6 RKA. If you pull out the SMG you're using the full amount of dice; if you pull out the pistol you're only using 2D6 (remove the Beam Limitation if you were using that; the idea here is that you don't have to use a Power at full power if you don't want to, and merely reducing the effect slightly changes the SFX to a different kind of gun).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Damage based on Ammo

 

Aha, found it.

 

104 M2 Man-Portable, Crew Served Mortar: (70 Point VPP), Long-Range Weapon (Extra Range, +1/4), All Rounds Indirect (always falls from overhead, +1/2); Crew Served (3 men, -1/2), Must have Clear View (cannot be fired indoors/through ceilings/overhead blockages, -1/2), Extra Time (Mortar must cool after extended use, -1/4), Increased Reloading Time (2 Full Phases to prime, load, & fire a shell, -1/4), Can Only Fire Appropriate Ammunition (Military mortar rounds of the correct caliber, -1/2), Long Range Weapon (Range Minimum, 50" -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

 

4 Inital Barrage: plus, +1 OCV, Must have previously fired on the same location (second and subsequent shots to the same location, -1/4)

7 Following Barrage: plus, +2 OCV, Must have previously fired four shots to the same location (fifth shot to the same location, -1/2)

5 Continued Barrage plus, +2 OCV, Must have fired six or more shots to the same location (seventh and subsequent shots to the same location, -3/4)

 

Final bonus on 7th & subsequent shots: +5 OCV, which is resepectable.

 

I calculated for a 70 point VPP based on an Explosive Indirect 2d6+1 shell, I wasn't certain if Indirect would need to apply to all shells, or if they were inherent to the VPP, so based on my lack of knowledge it's also possible to use a 3d6 Explosive Shell if Indirect becomes an effect of the VPP and not the ammunition (which it well may). This also lets you load... um... damn near anything, all without the muss & fuss. And that's a shell with no limitations (real weapon, etc.) so depending on how your VPPs are handled you could do considerably more damage.

 

This was my original Crew Served Mortar build. You can easily modify it into an MP/VPP/etc., but the general idea was there were so many possible Mortar Shells, it was much simpler to allow the GM to define them as necessary, rather than writing them out as possible MP variants (Starburst, Napalm, A.Orange, etc.). Hope it gives you some insight as to how to handle yours.

[Robyn]

Re: Damage based on Ammo

 

What I am planning is to define each shell as a separate power. This way I can have any level of power from something as simply as a Flash vs. Hearing to a Killing Attack with a Drain, NND, and AoE effect (well, maybe not but you get the idea).

 

So, what I did with the "gun" was to make it a naked advantage to add "Ranged" to the shell.

 

That works for two components. But what if you want to use three or more? How would you build a truly modular weapon? Something that allows us, as engineers, to take apart the pieces and rebuild them into something new, without a VPP and Skill Roll?

 

In fact, at that point, we're moving beyond just "weapons" - it should be possible to construct any item, provided we make our skills rolls for assembly. I find this idea very intriguing since it would be a step away from "make your roll, the dice will tell you whether or not you could find the parts"; the parts would already be there or not as determined by previous roleplaying, the only thing the dice would decide is if the PC was able to connect them properly.

 

I'm seeing "[effect] with (variable) Focus", here - the powers are all bought ahead of time, possibly (or even probably) Naked to let them apply to one another (can Naked advantages be applied in layers like that?). A skill roll is required to find out whether the connections were all hooked up correctly, and the work can be rushed at a penalty or time taken for a bonus. Might need something further to keep the items from working on their own, though some of them would function normally even when they failed to combine with other items. I'll need to think on this some more.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Damage based on Ammo

 

That works for two components. But what if you want to use three or more? How would you build a truly modular weapon? Something that allows us, as engineers, to take apart the pieces and rebuild them into something new, without a VPP and Skill Roll?

 

In fact, at that point, we're moving beyond just "weapons" - it should be possible to construct any item, provided we make our skills rolls for assembly. I find this idea very intriguing since it would be a step away from "make your roll, the dice will tell you whether or not you could find the parts"; the parts would already be there or not as determined by previous roleplaying, the only thing the dice would decide is if the PC was able to connect them properly.

 

I'm seeing "[effect] with (variable) Focus", here - the powers are all bought ahead of time, possibly (or even probably) Naked to let them apply to one another (can Naked advantages be applied in layers like that?). A skill roll is required to find out whether the connections were all hooked up correctly, and the work can be rushed at a penalty or time taken for a bonus. Might need something further to keep the items from working on their own, though some of them would function normally even when they failed to combine with other items. I'll need to think on this some more.

Actually it sounds like you're describing a basic Gadget Varaible Power Pool.

[Robyn]

Re: Damage based on Ammo

 

Actually it sounds like you're describing a basic Gadget Varaible Power Pool.

 

Isn't a VPP, by definition, able to contain any power/advantage/limitation in the book, offset only by its limits? Restricting one to "Gadgets" seems to imply that the character can create anything, provided they make their skill roll - which is exactly what I stated I wanted to avoid.

 

A generator, for instance, could be a minimum size (more possibly used for connections), with a +Xd6 Aid to any powered devices it was hooked up to; but that's generic. A crystal of some sort could provide AOE to any laser that was focused through it.

 

If you don't have that crystal, though, you can't make any AOE powers. Whether you have that crystal is determined by roleplaying, not by how well you made your roll.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Damage based on Ammo

 

Isn't a VPP' date=' by definition, able to contain any power/advantage/limitation in the book, offset only by its limits? Restricting one to "Gadgets" seems to imply that the character can create [i']anything[/i], provided they make their skill roll - which is exactly what I stated I wanted to avoid.

 

A generator, for instance, could be a minimum size (more possibly used for connections), with a +Xd6 Aid to any powered devices it was hooked up to; but that's generic. A crystal of some sort could provide AOE to any laser that was focused through it.

 

If you don't have that crystal, though, you can't make any AOE powers. Whether you have that crystal is determined by roleplaying, not by how well you made your roll.

Any Framework can hold any Power/Advantage/Limitation in the book (except Special Powers and in the cae of ECs Powers that don't cost END by default). The VPP is simply a Framework that says you can change what the Powers in your Framework Slots are, at the basic level it takes non-combat game-time, with specific Advantages or a Skill Roll you may switch the slots out more frequently - it still says nothing about what Powers are available at any given moment. You could be limited to the ones written down, you could limited to a GM approved list, you could be unlimited, in a Fantasy Game you could be limited to the Powers (spells) in your Spell Book, and not allowed to make stuff up on the fly at all.

 

So at the basic level - sure. I could make anything at anytime as long as it were a "Gadget" but I would hardly condone Roleplaying it that way. You could do the same with a Gadget VPP that you can with whatever it is you're proposing - if the GM says you don't have the Crystal he won't allow you to create an AoE Power with your Gadget VPP.

 

It really is that simple. VPPs aren't some magic ignore-the-mechanics-and-good-roleplaying construct, they are a tool to simulate certain constructs.

 

And like any tool they should be looked after.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Damage based on Ammo

 

The difference here, Robyn, is between a VPP, an IVPP (InVariable Power Pool, which is what I use), and a Cosmic VPP, which is what you're referring too. A normal VPP by the book is nothing spectacular; it represents the ability to pull a generic ability out of a hat and apply it. It's expensive, and most people put some strict limitations on it. The advantage of a VPP is that there's no limit to the scope of what can go in it - anything from 1,000+ spells to 5 variations on a theme can fit into a VPP. They're the default elegant solution to very messy problems.

 

A well defined set of powers are usually built as an MP - I'm sure you could start a brief discussion on how to build the average Gadget Belt. For Batman, because he's so well defined (smoke, gas, rappel/grapple, various detective things) you could say it's an MP and state what each Ultra slot is, and give it charges, and so on. You could also build it as a VPP with specifically defined abilities that he can switch too and from, but allow him to build new items as dramatically appropriate when the situation calls for it.

 

I use an IVPP - for my magic system, I allowed the PCs to purchase VPPs, but tacked on heavy limitations. How they recharge, what can go in them, and how those things work in the context of the pool itself. It all worked very nicely, although I would probably do it differently - or at least better defined - were the screws put to my thumbs. However, they cannot, ever, create new spells "on the fly," all spells must have at least one charge, and so on. I took some of the ideas on Killer Shrike's site and adapted it for my own needs.

 

So yeah. Clarification.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Damage based on Ammo

 

Another point: Cosmic VPP does not mean the Player can randomly and indiscrimnantly switch powers around.

 

It meanss that they switch which Slots are Active/Available in a VPP as a 0-Phase Action without a Skill Roll. You can switch Active/Available Slots on the fly without them but require Time and a Skill Roll.

 

What Powers are in those Slots is between the Player and the GM: It could be a predefined list made by the Player, a preapproved list of spells made by the GM, or anything the Player can make up in two minutes or less.

 

The VPP says nothing about what Powers go into the Slots - only how you can change them out.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Damage based on Ammo

 

F'rinstance: memorizing your spells in the morning.

[Frenchman]

Re: Damage based on Ammo

 

So' date=' what I did with the "gun" was to make it a naked advantage to add "Ranged" to the shell. [/quote']

Fantasy Hero discusses this option for bows, on page 170, or in the Equipment Guide on page 11

[Mazeus Xenon]

Re: Damage based on Ammo

 

Fantasy Hero discusses this option for bows' date=' on page 170, or in the Equipment Guide on page 11[/quote']

 

Funny you should mention this... I had found this some time ago and used the same basic idea for my weapons. Great minds must think alike! Now... what's my excuse...

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Damage based on Ammo

 

Fantasy Hero discusses this option for bows' date=' on page 170, or in the Equipment Guide on page 11[/quote']

 

Of course, there is a motivation for doing bows this way... So you can stab someone with an arrow even if you don't have the bow.

 

Using this construct for shells+gun means that even if you don't have the gun you can still attack with the bullets at HtH range.

[Mazeus Xenon]

Re: Damage based on Ammo

 

That is true but I work off the assumption that if someone was to use it in melee they would blow their hand up! (these are basically mini-missiles that explode on impact). However, they could be used as an improvised explosive if one needed it...

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Damage based on Ammo

 

That is true but I work off the assumption that if someone was to use it in melee they would blow their hand up! (these are basically mini-missiles that explode on impact). However' date=' they could be used as an improvised explosive if one needed it...[/quote']

 

Yep. It's a potentially vaild approach, but if you're interested in a certain degree of realisim, it might be worth noting that most shells have some arming mechanisim. With either build, as a GM I'd allow the shells to be used as a component of improvized munitions, but thats a function of the Demolitions skill (alternatively Weaponsmithing or even Power Skill, depending on the roleplaying) rather than the write up of the weapon. Right now, the only shells that'd damage the user in HtH are the ones with some kind of area of effect or explosion.

[Mazeus Xenon]

Re: Damage based on Ammo

 

True - if I really wanted it to hurt a user when used by hand I would make a side effect or something like that with it. I could also apply a Limitation of "Must be fired from weapon" Limitation or something, effectively making them useless outside of the gun.

 

Right now I am just going with the "I'm the GM so it works this way" idea for now... my favorate -0 Limitation!

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Damage based on Ammo

 

True - if I really wanted it to hurt a user when used by hand I would make a side effect or something like that with it. I could also apply a Limitation of "Must be fired from weapon" Limitation or something, effectively making them useless outside of the gun.

 

Right now I am just going with the "I'm the GM so it works this way" idea for now... my favorate -0 Limitation!

 

Of course, dude..this is Hero, and it's all down to the GM in the end. Just helping point out potential holes & flaws with the build.

 

If you go with the "Powers are shells, Guns add ranged advantages" model, then you can always drop on a small Variable Limitation (-1/4 Limit, any of the potential 3 -1/2 Limitations: Conditional:Must have Launcher [essentialy a Focus of Opportunity OIF], Requires a Skill Roll [Demolitions,Weaponsmithing, or Power Skill], or Side Effects [attacker takes damage])

 

By the way, this is where I make the throwaway comment...I love HERO because I can do almost anything with these rules.

[Mazeus Xenon]

Re: Damage based on Ammo

 

Well, yeah - why play any other system!!!

 

And I do like your idea of a variable limitation... I may have to apply that...