Entangle that costs end to maintain?

[The Souljourner]

I want my gravity powered super to have an entangle that he has to maintain by paying endurance. I can't figure out how to make the power, since entangle is a weird power in that it has a continuous effect, but only costs end to activate.

 

Any thoughts? I suppose I could just make a custom disadvantage, like -1/2 costs end every phase... but I was wondering if there was a more established way of doing it?

 

-Nate

[Kenn]

Re: Entangle that costs end to maintain?

 

It sounds like an effect you could achieve with either Telekinisis (grabbing the target and holding him down) or Force Wall (targeting the Force Wall on the target, trapping him.)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Entangle that costs end to maintain?

 

First off, here is a gravity based character that might serve as an inspiration:

http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/MillennialMen_Gravitic.shtml

 

Secondly, your assessment isnt quite right. Entangle is not "constant" any more than damage is "constant". It effectively creates an object that then must be destroyed.

 

However, you can make an Entangle Continuous, in which case its body basically heals each Phase while you pay END. So do that, and then apply the Susceptible Limitation and define the Susceptability as being when END isnt paid anymore

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Entangle that costs end to maintain?

 

I have to go with Kenn on this one, what you really want is AoE Telekinesis. You could try a Suppress vs. STR and Movement, but really the TK is more elegant.

 

_____________________________________________________________

"Ow! Looks like she missed the pool folks. That will affect her score." - Tom Servo

[The Souljourner]

Re: Entangle that costs end to maintain?

 

Continuous is a cool idea, though makes this already expensive power even more expensive (but makes sense with the special effect...) hmm... I'll have to think on it.

 

-Nate

[The Souljourner]

Re: Entangle that costs end to maintain?

 

AOE TK isn't a terrible idea. I'll twiddle around with it and see what it looks like.

 

-Nate

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Entangle that costs end to maintain?

 

I have to go with Kenn on this one' date=' what you really want is AoE Telekinesis. You could try a Suppress vs. STR and Movement, but really the TK is more elegant.[/quote']

It depends. TK has its issues too. The character I linked to previously has several overlapping abilities ranging from Drains, Suppresses, TK, and Entangles that all mirror using Gravity to pin people down. They all have their pluses and minuses.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Entangle that costs end to maintain?

 

Since no one apparantly clicks on links, here are some salient powers from the character I linked to previously, Gravitic.

 

This power is an AoE TK that holds up or holds down things in an area with a 26 STR:

 

4u 8) Gravity Alteration: Telekinesis (26 STR), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1), Selective Target (+1/4) (97 Active Points); Only To Pull Objects Straight Down To Earth Or Hold Them Off The Ground (-1), No Range (-1/2) (uses END Reserve) 4

 

 

and another version that is a point target and only holds things off the ground:

 

5u 9) Polarity Shift: Telekinesis (53 STR), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4) (99 Active Points); Only To Hold Something Off The Ground (-1) (uses END Reserve) 4

 

 

Here is an Entangle based power that prevents things from moving, the SFX being that they are heavy; you can't see the Entangle, and if the character breaks themselves out of it they take damage from it because they are in effect moving their heavy body around:

 

10u 12) Hold Still: Entangle 3d6, 5 DEF, Cannot Be Escaped With Teleportation (+1/4), Entangle And Character Both Take Damage (+1/4), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) (100 Active Points) (uses END Reserve) 10

 

This power comes at it from a different direction; it drains END -- the idea being it makes people weigh so much they get exhausted, and start burning STUN if they go low enough; eventually people get to where they knock themselves out even just moving around unless they have 0 END abilities:

 

10u 6) Micronic Mass Multiplier: Drain END 5d6 (standard effect: 15 points), STR, DEX, STUN, or END one at a time (+1/4), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1/4), Ranged (+1/2) (100 Active Points) (uses END Reserve) 10

 

 

These 3 powers are all similar and basically attack peoples movement and basically allows the character to finetune exactly how he messes with people's gravity:

 

8u 3) What Goes up Must Come Down: Suppress: Flight (in Air), Gliding, Swinging, Leaping 7d6 (standard effect: 21 points), Four Powers Simultaneously (+1), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Uncontrolled (+1/2) (96 Active Points); Limited Range (-1/4) (uses END Reserve) 4

 

7u 4) Gravity Wins Again: Suppress: All Movement 4d6 (standard effect: 12 points), All Powers Simultaneously (+2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Area Of Effect (14" Radius; +1 1/4), Selective Target (+1/4) (100 Active Points); No Range (-1/2) (uses END Reserve) 10

 

10u 5) Take A Load On: Drain Movement 5d6 (standard effect: 15 points), any Movement power one at a time (+1/4), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1/4), Ranged (+1/2) (100 Active Points) (uses END Reserve) 10

 

 

 

As it happens Im also currently getting another Gravity Manipulator, Gravitic's half brother MASSIVE together, and should have him ready to post in the next day or so. He has similar but different powers.

 

Either way, there are many ways to do the same basic deal in the HERO System, as always, but there are nuances involved to each method.

[Armitage]

Re: Entangle that costs end to maintain?

 

The Ultimate Speedster has several Entangles that have to be maintained by the character or they immediately disappear. They use the Lockout Limitation, although the character in question has to spend a Half Phase Action maintaining the Entangle rather than spending END.

As Killer Shrike said, you could also just make the Entangle Susceptible to not having END pumped into it. It wouldn't have to be Continuous, it just wouldn't heal then.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Entangle that costs end to maintain?

 

It depends. TK has its issues too. The character I linked to previously has several overlapping abilities ranging from Drains' date=' Suppresses, TK, and Entangles that all mirror using Gravity to pin people down. They all have their pluses and minuses.[/quote']

 

Well you are right of course, but each of those different builds begs for a slightly different SFX. For example, the Suppress vs. Flight etc. is appropriate to stop people from moving around as quickly, but logically you are using exactly the same power as when you Drain END, so shouldn't they both go off at the same time?

 

I think the TK is more elegant because you can accomplish most of these effects (to a greater or lesser extent) with a single power. The affected characters will have a less effective movement or must spend more END for it to move around for example. Maybe it does require a bit of handwaving, but then does the Suppress work vs. Thrown objects so that the car the brick pitches at the gravity manipulator gets affected?

 

In the end it just comes down to style of play and a subjective judgement call. I like the TK, but I have to say that the advantage of Killer Shrike's approach is to better define the effect in many ways, and certainly to explore it more deeply.

 

__________________________________________________ ___________

"Ow! Looks like she missed the pool folks. That will affect her score." - Tom Servo

[The Souljourner]

Re: Entangle that costs end to maintain?

 

Since no one apparantly clicks on links' date=' here are some salient powers from the character I linked to previously, Gravitic.[/quote']

 

I clicked and read him when you first posted

 

This power is an AoE TK that holds up or holds down things in an area with a 26 STR:

 

4u 8) Gravity Alteration: Telekinesis (26 STR), Reduced Endurance (Half END; +1/4), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1), Selective Target (+1/4) (97 Active Points); Only To Pull Objects Straight Down To Earth Or Hold Them Off The Ground (-1), No Range (-1/2) (uses END Reserve) 4

 

Yeah, this is probably one of the options I'll look at.

 

Here is an Entangle based power that prevents things from moving, the SFX being that they are heavy; you can't see the Entangle, and if the character breaks themselves out of it they take damage from it because they are in effect moving their heavy body around:

 

10u 12) Hold Still: Entangle 3d6, 5 DEF, Cannot Be Escaped With Teleportation (+1/4), Entangle And Character Both Take Damage (+1/4), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) (100 Active Points) (uses END Reserve) 10

 

I probably would make it invisible to all attacks. I don't like the idea of both taking damage. I probably wouldn't make it not escapable by teleportation, since I tend to think of it as an area of high gravity rather than an effect on the person themselves. Personal preference, though.

 

This power comes at it from a different direction; it drains END -- the idea being it makes people weigh so much they get exhausted,

 

10u 6) Micronic Mass Multiplier: Drain END 5d6 (standard effect: 15 points), STR, DEX, STUN, or END one at a time (+1/4), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1/4), Ranged (+1/2) (100 Active Points) (uses END Reserve) 10

 

Meh. A little too much distance between special effect and game effect for me.

 

These 3 powers are all similar and basically attack peoples movement and basically allows the character to finetune exactly how he messes with people's gravity:

 

I don't like movement draining/supressing powers. It's too easy to cheese people out with them. Since 12 points of suppress/drain stops all mooks from moving... it's kinda too easy. Change environment with negatives to movement modes is probably more appropriately costed.

 

Either way' date=' there are many ways to do the same basic deal in the HERO System, as always, but there are nuances involved to each method.[/quote']

 

Indeed. I remember now why I don't like AOE - you're paying for AOE and yet still have to make attack rolls to grab each person (teh suck).

 

-Nate

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Entangle that costs end to maintain?

 

Well you are right of course' date=' but each of those different builds begs for a slightly different SFX. For example, the Suppress vs. Flight etc. is appropriate to stop people from moving around as quickly, but logically you are using exactly the same power as when you Drain END, so shouldn't they both go off at the same time?[/quote']

Not necessarily. The character COULD be designed to do that -- in fact there was a character in a Champions game I ran back in 94 or 5 called Gravitate that was EC based and had several powers that all worked together. However this particular character isn't built like that on purpose.

 

I think the TK is more elegant because you can accomplish most of these effects (to a greater or lesser extent) with a single power. The affected characters will have a less effective movement or must spend more END for it to move around for example. Maybe it does require a bit of handwaving, but then does the Suppress work vs. Thrown objects so that the car the brick pitches at the gravity manipulator gets affected?

The character has several powers that interfere with bricks, including an AoE TK.

 

In the end it just comes down to style of play and a subjective judgement call. I like the TK, but I have to say that the advantage of Killer Shrike's approach is to better define the effect in many ways, and certainly to explore it more deeply.

 

That's just how that particular character is designed. The player wanted a very finely grained "mastery of gravity" with lots of tricks so he wouldnt get bored playing him, so thats what we came up with. The player didn't want a character that basically just used the same power over and over and over again.

 

Which is totally understandable; gimmick characters with all their points sunk into a set effect can be very boring to play; in fact the other character I mentioned from a long past campaign was pretty powerful by the standards of that campaign, but was also extremely boring for everyone both to play and to have in the group; when he locked down opponents it basically left them sitting ducks which took all the fun out of the fights.

 

Gravitic on the other hand may have been a little scattered in his approach but was a lot more fun to play, and made the combats more fun for the rest of the group rather than less. There was also a good running gag with his Uncontrolled effects where he'd draw a lot of hate from enemies taking damage / being affected every phase; on several occasions he was basically seized and commanded to "turn it off!!!!!", to which he would respond "I can't! No really, I don't know how!"