Magic System Question #4

[Kortay Mirlor]

Hi!

 

I want some spells to be "one in a life" event. The rule book on p184 says "Charges Never Recover" is -2 Lim. But them you can get another gizmo/scroll/thingy and do it again. I want NEVER again.

 

Would you make that -2 1/2, -3? Or do you think "Charges Never Recover" is too high now, reduce it, and make "One In A Life" -2?

 

Or something else?

[Curufea]

Re: Magic System Question #4

 

I think under the independant limitation there is a thing for one use and the points being lost.

If it is a once in a lifetime spell though - is it necessary to know what points it costs?

[Markdoc]

Re: Magic System Question #4

 

I'd add Charges never recover and independant to give you -4 and then note as a house rule (since I would not normally allow both on one power - if the charges never recover, having the power is not much use, so losing the points doesn't matter) that this combo is only ever allowed once per character.

 

cheers, Mark

[Kortay Mirlor]

Re: Magic System Question #4

 

I'd add Charges never recover and independant to give you -4 and then note as a house rule (since I would not normally allow both on one power - if the charges never recover, having the power is not much use, so losing the points doesn't matter) that this combo is only ever allowed once per character.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Wow, that's gonna make it way too cheap! I was looking for something instead of "Charges Never Recover". Something like it but more "powerful".

 

If it is a once in a lifetime spell though - is it necessary to know what points it costs?

With the players that will be in the campaign, YES!!!!! This is what I keep saying and no one pays attention to ----

 

We've all been burned too f*****g often by GM's changing things in mid campaign and we all want to see every spell, weapon, item, whattheF***ever written down. OK some GM wants/"needs" to invent in mid game fine go ahead just write it down now b*****d so you can't change it. Yes the players get the same treatment.

 

That's my players and that's me!! This is gonna be one of the mcguffins so it really truely HAS to get written down.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic System Question #4

 

Without knowing all the details, what about a variation on the Expendable Focus rules? If the focus is expended when the spell is cast and the caster can never get another one, that would seem to match the structure you're looking for.

[Savinien]

Re: Magic System Question #4

 

You sound as if you're asking for more limitations and bitch when the cost is becoming too cheap...

 

WTF?

[Kortay Mirlor]

Re: Magic System Question #4

 

Without knowing all the details' date=' what about a variation on the Expendable Focus rules? If the focus is expended when the spell is cast and the caster can never get another one, that would seem to match the structure you're looking for.[/quote']

 

Is there a Lim for can't ever get the Exp. Focus back not ever never? Cause I can't find it but I could just impose it. What would that be worth you think?

[Kortay Mirlor]

Re: Magic System Question #4

 

You sound as if you're asking for more limitations and bitch when the cost is becoming too cheap...

 

WTF?

 

No, I was asking for a new Lim and if it was worth more than the -2 "Charge Never Recovers". When Markdoc pumped in two Lims and a house rule to do what I wanted I said that -4 was way more than I thought right for what's just "Charge Never Recovers No We Really Mean NEVER"

 

I wasn't dissin' Markdoc just reacting so chill, 'K.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic System Question #4

 

No' date=' I was asking for a new Lim and if it was worth more than the -2 "Charge Never Recovers". When Markdoc pumped in two Lims and a house rule to do what I wanted I said that -4 was way more than I thought right for what's just "Charge Never Recovers No We [i']Really[/i] Mean NEVER"

 

I wasn't dissin' Markdoc just reacting so chill, 'K.

 

So obviously you WANT the answer to be -3 - why not just set it there?

 

Assuming a 60 AP power with no other limitations, a -2 limitation reduces the cost to 20 points, -3 to 15 points and -4 to 12 points. There's not a huge amount of granularity making the power "far too cheap" at -4 as compared to -3 (or even -2), in my opinion.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic System Question #4

 

Is there a Lim for can't ever get the Exp. Focus back not ever never? Cause I can't find it but I could just impose it. What would that be worth you think?

 

I like -4 which is taking the OAF Focus, tacking on "really hard to recover (-1) and then adding -2 for Never recovers (like Charge never recovers). This is the same as 1 charge, independent, or one charge, never recovers (both also suggested previously), although both of these could be purchased again. I suppose one could apply a further -1, to a total -5 (that will save another 2 points on my 60 base point example above) for the added limitation. It would be just as easy to set it as a ground rule of the game that powers using this mechanic can be purchased only once.

 

The Focus approach appeals because the GM then controls the availability of the item in question. If desired for campaign reasons, the GM could send the characters on a quest to an alternate reality to find their Mighty McGuffin of Magic to enable them to cast the spell one more time, with the mechanics of the spell unchanged.

[Kortay Mirlor]

Re: Magic System Question #4

 

So obviously you WANT the answer to be -3 - why not just set it there?

 

No, I WANT it to be -2, and "Charges Never Recover" (a BS name) to be -1/2. Really, CNR means just "go find one of the other half billion MacGuffins that do it" or "kowtow to the crazy wizard that makes them" or something like that. I've never seen a campaign, a module, a writen up magic item with CNR that they don't tell you how to recover the charge only its not CALLED recovering the charge its called finding a new one or some BS like that.

 

But I'd have a hard sell on dropping CNR so much so I was looking for help on pricing a REAL NEVER recover.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic System Question #4

 

So make it -2 1/2. Returning to our hypothetical 60 point power, it drops to 17 points from 20 (-2) or 15 (-3).

 

Or just state that CNR in your game means just that - they NEVER recover. While, mechanically, you could spend the points to buy it back, such an xp expenditure will not be approved in your game, so the charges really WILL never recover.

 

As a player, I see myself getting a whopping 3 point savings for changing from 1 charge per day to one charge and the points are gone, but I'd see the same issue at -4 when I'm only getting an 8 point savings.

 

For me, if this were a universe-saving McGuffin, I'd make it an Independent power that someone else had already paid for. Part of the Independent would be the fact it can only be used once. The PC's can then take that independent power away from whoever currently has it, pay no points for it and use it themselves.

[Cantriped]

Re: Magic System Question #4

 

Yeah, universe saving devices are called "Plot Device". and forcing players to sac points for something that will only be used once at the climax of a campaign is frankly kinda silly. as such the afore mentioned items Real Point worth is kinda irrelevent.

But for the sake of argument if I were to make an "Artifact" of such campaign magnitude that there can be only one of them in the entirity of creation, ever (I never would). Then a mere -2 lim would be totally inappropiate.

For a oneshot "Magi-Nuke" I'd go for -5 to -6, including charges and such

[Kortay Mirlor]

Re: Magic System Question #4

 

So make it -2 1/2. Returning to our hypothetical 60 point power' date='[/quote']

 

It's up over 130 AP and there's more Advantages I think I need.

 

For me' date=' if this were a universe-saving McGuffin,[/quote']

 

Not even close and its gonna be a spell so Independent is hard to get working right. Could do it, but un-physical Independent's are always a little funky to deal with.

 

Or just state that CNR in your game means just that - they NEVER recover. While' date=' mechanically, you could spend the points to buy it back, such an xp expenditure will not be approved in your game, so the charges really WILL never recover.[/quote']

 

Hey! THAT'S IT!

 

Make scrolls an potions and s**t "Difficult to obtain new Focus" on "Expendible Focus."

 

Happy Dance time!!!

 

Solved!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic System Question #4

 

It's up over 130 AP and there's more Advantages I think I need.

 

Let's say it's 200 AP. A -2 limitation leaves 67 cost; -2 1/2 leaves 57 ; -3 drops it to 50; -4 brings it down to 40. It's a pretty small percentage for added limitations at that point.

 

I'd be very unlikely to spend 26 points (130 w/ -4 limits), much less 37 points (-2 1/2 instead of -4) on an ability that gets used once and then the points are gone. Is this a standard fantasy game (150 points)? If so, you're talking about somewhere between 1/6 and 1/4 of the character's starting points - a lot to sacrifice. This strikes me as achieving the standard of "Wow that's cool but no character will ever take it." Now, you might place it on an NPC, but then it really is nothing but a plot device, since the NPC gets whatever points you choose to give him.

 

Not even close and its gonna be a spell so Independent is hard to get working right. Could do it' date=' but un-physical Independent's are always a little funky to deal with.[/quote']

 

If it's not a world-saving McGuffin (ie guaranteed loss unless you spend these points), I'm not seeing a lot of motivation to buy it. What makes it so powerful that there's a need to make it once in a lifetime?

 

And "cast it once and the points are gone forever" seems pretty independent to me. All we need is some way to pass it along to another user of the points. Without knowing much about the power, it's tough to brainstorm any ideas on that.

 

Let's compare this to D&D's xp costs. The theory behind D&D is that you can get from 1st to 20th level in about a year, so 1 level per 2.5 game sessions. 2-3 xp per game session is in the ballpark for Hero, so that's 5 - 7.5 xp = 1 D&D level. Call it 6. The spell will cost 37 points, so that's about 6 levels. In a D&D game, would you consider taking a spell that, in casting, permanently removes 6 levels from your character? That's more or less the same as asking a player to spend 37 points to be allowed to cast this spell once.

[Kortay Mirlor]

Re: Magic System Question #4

 

If it's not a world-saving McGuffin (ie guaranteed loss unless you spend these points)' date=' I'm not seeing a lot of motivation to buy it. What makes it so powerful that there's a need to make it once in a lifetime?[/quote']

Sorry, but some of the players "guest" this board (rarely but it happens) so I can't explain without giving away shtuff.

 

And "cast it once and the points are gone forever" seems pretty independent to me.

I'm sorry! I guess I wasn't clear. That's the prob with not doing this face-to-face; I can't tell what's not getting across until a lot of times wasted.

 

A person can only get this spell once in her life. A person can cast it as often as she wants.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic System Question #4

 

I'm sorry! I guess I wasn't clear. That's the prob with not doing this face-to-face; I can't tell what's not getting across until a lot of times wasted.

 

A person can only get this spell once in her life. A person can cast it as often as she wants.

 

????How is that any different from any other spell???? You spend points once, you have the spell, you can cast it as many times as you want.

[Krieghandt]

Re: Magic System Question #4

 

not necessarily, as I sell spells as multipower slots, and some GMs sell them as skills, or as powers derived from skills.

Krieghandt

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic System Question #4

 

not necessarily, as I sell spells as multipower slots, and some GMs sell them as skills, or as powers derived from skills.

Krieghandt

 

All of which are purchased with points, and part of the character once purchased. Cast away.

[Kortay Mirlor]

Re: Magic System Question #4

 

OK, I give. Nothing I do seems to make things clear to you guys.

 

I'm down with the solution I gave before, so I'm gonna skip outta this thread.

 

Thanks for the help, thanks for making me think. Too bad I can't get what I want to say across, but no pain.