New Mechanic: Shapeshift

[schir1964]

After rereading the Shapeshift thread several posts mentioned that many shapeshifting SFX don't actually require the power Shapeshift at all. And it was even suggested that the Shapeshift power may not even be needed. So I got to thinking how different mechanics could be used to help simulate the various Shapeshift SFX. I have to ideas/constructs that may work, but I'm not sure which would work better.

 

Mechanic 1: Shapeshift Advantage

This advantage may be applied to any power that is used specifically for shapeshifting. Due to the flexibility of this advantage, a list of builtin benefits and detriiments is provided:

 

• All powers with this advantage may change SFX as a Half Phase Action (Like Variable SFX)
  
• All powers with this advantage may use them different ways that would not normally be allowed. (Like an automatic Power Skill)
  
• All powers with this advantage may allows the character's form to change
  
• All powers with this advantage may considered non-existent with forms that would not have those powers
  
• All powers with this advantage are treated as one power concerning SFX for Adjustment Powers vs SFX
  

 

Shapeshift: +1/2 to +1

 

Examples:

Stretching + Shapeshift: Allows character to use stretching for movement or squeeze through openings that are smaller than would be normally possible.

COM + Shapeshift: Allows one alter one's appearance to one that may allow more bonuses against specific races/npcs or even lower the COM value as necessary.

STR + Shapeshift: Character can use his STR in ways not normally allowed (like changing ones arm into a crowbar to pry open something that has no hand holds available).

Shrinking + Shapeshift: Character can mimic things/objects/animals that are smaller than human size.

 

Mechanic 2: Shapeshift Framework

The Shapeshift Framework allows a player to purchase power slots needed for shapeshifting. The Shapeshift framework automatically grants the character the ability to change forms (SFX) and all powers assigned to slots within. The Framework requires that the total active points of all slots within the framework never exceed the Shapeshift Pool. Advantages/Limitations may be applied to the Pool and Slots similar to a Multipower. There are no Variable/Ultra slots for this Framework.

 

Slots

Each slot can hold any power needed for shapeshifting. Assigning/Changing a single slots power is a Half Phase Action. Once assigned the slot remains so until character removes assignment or changes the assignment to another power. The active points purchased is the maximum active points the power has available.

 

Pool Cost: 1 Point Per 1 Active Point

Slot Cost: 2 Points Per 1 Active Point

 

Thoughts?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: New Mechanic: Shapeshift

 

Re mechanic one I would flesh out what sort of extra abilities you can perform, and it might be pretty cool if that were better understood.

 

Re mechanic two, it seems as costly as a VPP with a narrower flexibility. Setting aside cost, I'll have to review against how some shapeshift stuff has been done in our group, it's an interesting thought, but I'd say if such a construct works at all it should be explored on its own as a middle ground between VPP and MP if it has more flexible/other uses (such as Multiform usage - get slots for various multiform effects and mix and match, same for Duplication perhaps, then elminate "forms" as a mechanic even possibly if this pool/slot idea for forms works - basically maybe this becomes a Forms Control, a new one alongside MP, VPP, and EC).

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Shapeshift

 

Mechanic 1: Shapeshift Advantage

 

Examples

Mystique SFX: Power Group (COM, STR, HKA) Allows character imitate other people and mimic hand to hand attack types within thier own level of ability.

 

 

 

 

Not sure what you wanted for "Fleshing it out" but I figured we could start with a concrete example and work from there.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Shapeshift

 

Mechanic Two' date=' it seems as costly as a VPP with a narrower flexibility. Setting aside cost, I'll have to review against how some shapeshift stuff has been done in our group, it's an interesting thought, but I'd say if such a construct works at all it should be explored on its own as a middle ground between VPP and MP if it has more flexible/other uses (such as Multiform usage - get slots for various multiform effects and mix and match, same for Duplication perhaps, then elminate "forms" as a mechanic even possibly if this pool/slot idea for forms works - basically maybe this becomes a Forms Control, a new one alongside MP, VPP, and EC).[/quote']

This is the one I favor, and I was looking at it as a type of "Forms Control" mechanic.

 

It was extremely rought idea that I threw together.

 

Yes, it is Framework that takes elements from Multi-Power and Variable Power Pool. It is more flexible than a Muli-Power but without the huge cost breaks, and less flexible than a Variable Power Pool without many of the restrictions for control/slots.

 

You are probably too busy to delve into this right now.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: New Mechanic: Shapeshift

 

What do you mean by "without many of the restrictions for control/slots."?

[zornwil]

Re: New Mechanic: Shapeshift

 

Mechanic 1: Shapeshift Advantage

 

Examples

Mystique SFX: Power Group (COM, STR, HKA) Allows character imitate other people and mimic hand to hand attack types within thier own level of ability.

 

 

 

 

Not sure what you wanted for "Fleshing it out" but I figured we could start with a concrete example and work from there.

 

- Christopher Mullins

I mean, how do you limit "extra abilities" points/balance-wise, what constitutes reasonable extra abilities, that sort of explanation.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Shapeshift

 

What do you mean by "without many of the restrictions for control/slots."?

With a VPP you must pay for a "Control Cost" in addition to the Pool Cost. Furthermore, you may only apply Advantages/Limitations to the Control Cost and not the Pool. These are restrictions that affect the overall ability to purchase and use the framework itself.

 

With a VPP the Slots are restricted in two ways. Each slot may not exceed the Pool value, and the total cost of all slots may not exceed the Pool value.

 

With the Forms Framework, you can purchase slots at whatever levels you wish whether it be 1 Active Point in a one slot and 100 Active Points in another. So in this way it is more flexible than the VPP Framework.

 

How it is more restrictive than a VPP is that the number of slots are fixed and that each slot's Active Points limits the powers that can fit inside.

Example:

10 AP Slot may never contain the Power Desolidification since it requires 40 Active Points minimum.

2 AP Slot may never contain an Attack Power since the cheapest Attack Power is 3 Active Points.

A Forms Framework purchased with 5 Slots may never have more than 5 Powers Active Simulatenously (at least not until more XP are spent).

 

Does this help clarify the differences?

 

Also, I'm very open to ideas for changes, such at the Half-Phase assignment requirement. That was just an initial restriction that I placed, but it could be changed to be less/more restrictive as a default.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Shapeshift

 

I mean' date=' how do you limit "extra abilities" points/balance-wise, what constitutes reasonable extra abilities, that sort of explanation.[/quote']

Ah, okay. I pretty much was going to leave that up to the GM, but I guess I could expound upon it to make it clearer. This is also the reason why I gave the Advantage a range of values instead of just one value. I may need to address that in more detail.

 

Examples:

Applying the Shapeshift Advantage to Stretching would grant you the ability to change the SFX as the base ability. Thus Stretching could represent Stretching Ones Arm (normal usage), or changing ones arm into a long rope, or becoming a long snake (Mass the same, just extra length).

 

Additional abilities based on the SFX might be granted...

Snake form allows one to move through small spaces (normally restricted with Stretching), or the Rope with a grappling hook placed on the end may allow one to move to another location using it (normally restricted with Stretching).

 

How the GM would value these extra abilities is up to him. One may say it is included with the +1/2 value while another may require it be purchased at the +1 level.

 

I was kind of thinking along these lines:

+1/2 Shapeshift: Allows one to change forms and thus SFX of power.

+3/4 Shapeshift: Grants additonal minor abilities like what Power Skill would grant but without a Skill Roll.

+1 Shapeshift: Allows the Power to break certain rules for the power.

 

Does this help?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: New Mechanic: Shapeshift

 

All pretty interesting, I like the Forms Framework.

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Shapeshift

 

All pretty interesting' date=' I like the Forms Framework.[/quote']

Yeah, I think it is cleaner.

 

I have no idea if the costs are too much or too little for it though.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: New Mechanic: Shapeshift

 

I have a shapeshifter and a traditional MF guy in our supers campaign, sometime will try to see how these stat out, especially if I can get them to mess with it.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: New Mechanic: Shapeshift

 

As always, Chris,

 

I have to admire the amount of thought you put into tinkering with the system

 

Examples:

Applying the Shapeshift Advantage to Stretching would grant you the ability to change the SFX as the base ability. Thus Stretching could represent Stretching Ones Arm (normal usage), or changing ones arm into a long rope, or becoming a long snake (Mass the same, just extra length).

 

Additional abilities based on the SFX might be granted...

Snake form allows one to move through small spaces (normally restricted with Stretching), or the Rope with a grappling hook placed on the end may allow one to move to another location using it (normally restricted with Stretching).

 

As I see it, you've got two possibilities at work here. The one that leaps most readily to mind is that you're dangerously close to using one power as another: Stretching, with this advantage, becomes Swinging (or is that Flight now in 5e?) or Entangle, or a form of desolidification.

 

I realize that 'stretching' is a hard choice for your example, as so much of Stretching itself is just SFX for other powers such as running, entagle, desolid, swinging, etc. Really, it's the fact that these other powers exist at all that is the reason that Stretching isn't allowed by default to do what these powers do.

 

I think you're going to run into the same sort of problem with ShapeShift, which so far has proven to be the hardest power to nail down tight.

 

But to get back on track, the first possibility I saw in your examples of how something tagged with the Shapeshift advantage was that are at that point creating a small power pool of sorts.

 

To clarify: Stretching with the Advantage Shapeshift has now become a small power pool, and it will allow you 'shift shapes' anywhere within the SFX of Stretching to create a new power (Entangle, super-leap, etc).

 

Ignoring that Power Pools already exist (as I assume you are looking for something a bit different from that), you would need to define the limits of what can and can't be done, and traditionally, this would be done with points. So in this case, would the cost of tha Advantage become the 'control' cost, with the character allowed to make any other power with the points he spent on the unmodified Stretching? Or would his 'pool' be equal to say-- 1/2 the total AP cost of the power?

 

 

 

The second possibility I saw is a series of either EC's or MPs, defined by category.

 

For example, a Movement MP, a Defense MP, an offense MP, a characteristics MP, etc....

 

most likely, each slot would be an ultra: why use swimming _and_ running, for example-- with the unifying theme that the character has shifted his shape to allow for this ability to express. The player and the circumstances would of course define the shape, but ultimately the shapeshifting is just the SFX.

 

You might even add a requirement that shifting something on any one Multipower requires shifting something on one or more of the other multipowers, to fully simulate the shape-shifting 'feel.'

 

Of course, at this point you're not too terribly far from going with a straight-up Power Pool, which is what a lot of players are doing already.

 

 

But I am very much enjoying the evolution of this idea of yours; I look forward to seeing where it ends up going!

 

 

 

How the GM would value these extra abilities is up to him. One may say it is included with the +1/2 value while another may require it be purchased at the +1 level.

 

I was kind of thinking along these lines:

+1/2 Shapeshift: Allows one to change forms and thus SFX of power.

+3/4 Shapeshift: Grants additonal minor abilities like what Power Skill would grant but without a Skill Roll.

+1 Shapeshift: Allows the Power to break certain rules for the power.

 

Does this help?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Shapeshift

 

As always, Chris,

 

I have to admire the amount of thought you put into tinkering with the system

I try. (8^D)

 

I realize that 'stretching' is a hard choice for your example' date=' as so much of Stretching itself is just SFX for other powers such as running, entagle, desolid, swinging, etc. Really, it's the fact that these other powers exist at all that is the reason that Stretching isn't allowed by default to do what these powers do.[/quote']

This is an interesting point. I never thought about it in that way before.

 

I've said before in an older thread that Stretching is really not an accurate name. It should be called "Extra Reach" to clearly convey what the power is. It doesn't really stretch anythng, but simply allows greater reach. It does't change your mass or form in way, it simply allows Extra Reach.

 

But what you've said is interesting, because it implies that a Grab with Limbs is duplicating Entangle, or vice versus.

 

Side Note: I've detailed in other threads, which you've probably read, why Desolidification is one of the worst ways to try to emulate the Plasitic Man/Reed Richards type of effect, even though it is the official way to do it. But I won't rant on that here. (8^D)

 

I think you're going to run into the same sort of problem with ShapeShift' date=' which so far has proven to be the hardest power to nail down tight.[/quote']

Well, that is kind of the point, right? (8^D)

 

But to get back on track' date=' the first possibility I saw in your examples of how something tagged with the Shapeshift advantage was that are at that point creating a small power pool of sorts.[/quote']

Okay, I can kind of see that point of view.

 

Just out of curiosity then, how do you view Power Skill, Variable SFX, and Variable Advantage?

 

Would these also fall into this viewpoint or not?

 

Ignoring that Power Pools already exist...

Actually, the ideas came from the idea that Shapeshifting was more SFX than anything else, and that a single mechanic is incapable of handling the entire realm of Shapeshifting SFX.

 

So if a single mechanic won't suffice, then we are left with using a collection of mechanics that are tied together in some manner by the SFX itself. There are two approaches:

Advantage that is applied to all the mechanics and ties them together.

Framework which by its very nature is a collection of mechanics and is bound by some common theme.

 

The second possibility I saw is a series of either EC's or MPs, defined by category.

 

For example, a Movement MP, a Defense MP, an offense MP, a characteristics MP, etc....

 

most likely, each slot would be an ultra: why use swimming _and_ running, for example-- with the unifying theme that the character has shifted his shape to allow for this ability to express. The player and the circumstances would of course define the shape, but ultimately the shapeshifting is just the SFX.

 

You might even add a requirement that shifting something on any one Multipower requires shifting something on one or more of the other multipowers, to fully simulate the shape-shifting 'feel.'

Correct, but using this method has its own problems.

 

1) All slots may never exceed the Pool limit

2) Unable to use all powers at maximum simultaneously

3) Unable to put Special Powers or Talents into Frameworks

4) Must abort next phase to switch slots in the middle of a phase

 

Now you mention using a Movement Pool, a Defense Pool, and a Characteristic Pool.

 

1) Movmement Pool: You will be spending more points on the Pool and Slots than just buying each movement power with a Limitation "Only one movement type at a time". Also, you won't be able to do a Half-Move on one type and a Half-Move of another type without aborting your next phase.

2) Defense Pool: Illegal per the rules and definately one that most GM's would raise an eyebrow on. (8^D)

3) Characteristic Pool: Same as 2 above.

 

Of course' date=' at this point you're not too terribly far from going with a straight-up Power Pool, which is what a lot of players are doing already.[/quote']

Precisely. GM's are forced to turn to the VPP for the solution because it alone has the flexibility needed to cover the arena of Shapeshifting SFX. But this comes with price. A VPP is a complex framework that is mainly used as a last resort for those ideas not easily handled anyway. Also the VPP can severely slow down game play and hinder the fun while waiting for the player to figure out what powers can fit within the VPP restrictions. This can be mitigated by having drawn up power sets before hand, and this works well with certain concepts. But there are those concepts that require on the fly changes, such as Shapeshift.

 

Solution: New Framework that has more Flexibility than a Multipower, but is much easier to use than a Variable Power Pool.

 

I think that the Forms Framework does this. At least I hope it does. (8^D)

 

But I am very much enjoying the evolution of this idea of yours; I look forward to seeing where it ends up going!

Feel free to pipe in and point things out as you just did. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Shapeshift

 

As I see it' date=' you've got two possibilities at work here. The one that leaps most readily to mind is that you're dangerously close to using one power as another: Stretching, with this advantage, becomes Swinging (or is that Flight now in 5e?)...[/quote']

I wanted to address this in more detail and separately.

 

You've got me thinking about the whole movement thing in general... < uh oh >

 

Let's take Running/Walking as a type of movement.

The character is walking across the lawn and comes to one of those little white picket fences for gardens (two feet high) and steps over it and continues walking.

 

Would you require another type of movement to step over the fence?

Of course not.

 

Now we take the same character but now he is 200 Feet tall. He goes walking across the lawn and comes to the house and steps over it and continues walking.

 

Would you require another type of movement to step over the house?

I'll let you think about that one for a moment.

 

Now we take the original character but now he is rubber man and can stretch 200 feet tall proportionally without changing his actual mass. He walks across the lawn and comes to the house and steps over it and continues walking.

Now for some reason this is supposed to require another type of movement?

 

Okay, now let's take another look at this from another viewpoint.

 

We have Rubber Man standing under a great oak tree with a limb that is 30 feet up. Rubber Man reaches up and grabs the branch and tries to lift himself onto the branch so he can sit there.

 

Now we've got a problem, such a task can't be done with Stretching since this type of trick is expressly forbidden with Stretching. Why? Because this is considered "movement" by the game.

 

Now here's the kicker... what kind of "movement" did we just witness? (8^D)

 

Running/Walking? Nope. His feet stayed right where they were.

Leaping? Nope. Again, his feet stayed right where they were.

Climbing? Perhaps, but Climbing isn't a movement to start with and no vertical surface was even used.

Swinging? Nope. No arc was used to get to the location.

Swimming? Yeah, right.

Gliding? Nope.

Flight? Nope.

Telekinesis? Nope.

 

So let's analize my first examples...

 

Any character can step over obstacles that are small enough to step over.

Therefore, Growth doesn't require a different type of movement to step over obstacles that are now small enough to step over.

 

Any character can reach up and grab a branch within reach and pull themself up and onto it (providing they have the strength/technique).

Therefore, Stretching should also allow any character to reach up to a branch they can reach and pull themselves up and onto it.

 

Now why was this prohibited by the rules?

 

Movement is the method to change location and is measured in inches and there are various types of movement based on the method and manner of that movement that has certain restrictions.

 

Stretching allows one to "reach" out and grab something. It simply extends what the character can already do. Reach out an grab something and then pull the rest of themselves to that spot.

 

In this respect it is a movement ability, but it is unique enough that it should be treated as a completely different type of movement.

 

Does this mean Stretching should include movement for free?

No. The cost of that ability should be paid for within the power itself somehow. Whether as an adder, advantage, or limitations.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Duke Bushido]

Re: New Mechanic: Shapeshift

 

Okay, lots of things,

 

and it's getting late. Didn't get to check in earlier has I had hoped to do, but let me see what replies I can make in the time iI have:

 

I try. (8^D)

 

 

This is an interesting point. I never thought about it in that way before.

 

Thanks. I try, too

 

 

I've said before in an older thread that Stretching is really not an accurate name. It should be called "Extra Reach" to clearly convey what the power is. It doesn't really stretch anythng, but simply allows greater reach. It does't change your mass or form in way, it simply allows Extra Reach.

 

well, I suppose you can push your belly all the way across the coffee table and have one cheek of your fanny on each side of the room, but then you're just showing off..

 

Though in general, I tend to agree with this line of thought (same as I always thought EB should be called "Ranged Attack"). As I stated in the last post, Stretching is very often just SFX for something else. The only problem here is that I can't find a better name than 'stretching.' Consider that calling it 'Reach' and still tying in things like 'momentum bonuses,' etc

leads to a bit of confusion. Should people with longer, non-stretching arms get momentum bonuses because they pulled their elbows really, really tight before they sprang them open in an uppercut?

 

Well really, I think we all agree that "no, they shouldn't." But calling the Power 'reaching' and leaving it described and working more or less as-is doesn't solve the problem, either. Though when you figure the number of builds with 'stretching' only straight lines; can't "unstretch", etc-- particularly in long weapons, you have a very solid argument that 'reaching' or 'range' is the best way to go.

 

Though just putting all that to words makes me wonder-- going back to the idea of 'stretching as SFX instead of a power' if perhaps "stretching" is better portrayed over-all as putting "range" on STR? Hmmm.....

 

It does essentially what Stretching does (save the new 'momentum bonuses, which I don't care for anyway) _and_ keeps the SFX entirely in the realm of SFX without having to create a whole new power construct...

 

Hmmm...

 

I might like to toy with that notion at some point in the future.....

 

Granted, that's essentially what TK is, but this time you've the Limitations about 'crossing intervening space' (another one I don't care for, but accept as 'required' on occasion)....

 

Hmmmm...

 

Sorry--

 

moving on:

 

 

But what you've said is interesting, because it implies that a Grab with Limbs is duplicating Entangle, or vice versus.

 

Only if your Grab is somehow different from your non-stretch Grab in terms of mechanics. I don't mind that you define it as "wrap my opponent up in my amazing abdomen," so long as you don't encroach onto Entangle: "If he's wrapped in my entire Torso, shouldn't it be much harder to break out?"

 

That's when you're walking the line too closely, for my own money. If you are just grabbing him with "Extra Reach" then there's no real issue here, to my mind.

 

Side Note: I've detailed in other threads, which you've probably read, why Desolidification is one of the worst ways to try to emulate the Plasitic Man/Reed Richards type of effect, even though it is the official way to do it. But I won't rant on that here. (8^D)

 

I've been away for a while (miss me? heh heh heh heh ) and have missed a lot of things. But I'd probably agree with you, as 5e has brought out some truly alarm-raising Desolid cobbles....

 

[unable to bring in prior quote about difficulty nailing down shapeshift. Sorry]

 

Well, that is kind of the point, right? (8^D)

 

indeed, as well as the fun to be had discussing it. That reminds me: where's Sean Waters been hiding?

 

 

[unable to bring in comment about the question of 'is this what you mean? Are you creating pools? Sorry.]

 

Okay, I can kind of see that point of view.

 

Just out of curiosity then, how do you view Power Skill, Variable SFX, and Variable Advantage?

 

Would these also fall into this viewpoint or not?

 

Whoah-- you're ahead of me.

 

I was actually asking for clarification; in essence: am I correct in assuming that one of these directions is where you're heading?

 

As for Power Skill, I have mixed feelings. I've always allowed one-shot power stunts, usually with an appropriate Characteristic roll: DEX, EGO, STR, etc. While the new Power Skill allows an 'official' way to handle such things, the flip side of the coin is that those without this skill may no longer attempt such things.

 

So I guess I have to say that "I really like that the majority of the gamers out there liked the idea of doing things not exactly on their sheets, but I don't like the idea that have to pay points to be 'allowed' to get creative at dramatic moments.

 

My own opinion, of course.

 

I have always felt that Variable SFX has it's place: it sort of creates a very narrow multipower, but have Variable Advantage has always stuck in my craw. In over twenty years of being GM, I have allowed it once.

 

[missing comment about Power Pools]

Actually, the ideas came from the idea that Shapeshifting was more SFX than anything else, and that a single mechanic is incapable of handling the entire realm of Shapeshifting SFX.

 

With you there. My own opinion is that a single mechanic, or even a set of mechanics, will most likely fall short, but I believe that this is because Shape shift is in essence a special effect more than an actual power. My own opinion though, and I sincerly hope you won't let it color your attempts to create a unifying mechanic. It's my interest in this that led me to respond.

 

So if a single mechanic won't suffice, then we are left with using a collection of mechanics that are tied together in some manner by the SFX itself. There are two approaches:

Advantage that is applied to all the mechanics and ties them together.

Framework which by its very nature is a collection of mechanics and is bound by some common theme.

 

I now have a better grasp of what you're trying to do, but let me ask you this:

 

going with either approach, you refer to a collection of mechanics bound by the SFX.

 

Is that not enough? I mean, is not this idea essentially buying the powers or frameworks as normal and declaring the SFX to be Shape Shifting? Surely there's no reason to charge an extra advantage to have a unifying theme.

 

And I'm fairly certain that I'm only asking that question because I'm missing some key piece of your work. Perhaps I could talk you into a re-wording?

 

[another missing power pool comment, this one about several pools, each devoted to a category of powers. Again, sorry.]

 

Correct, but using this method has its own problems.

 

1) All slots may never exceed the Pool limit

2) Unable to use all powers at maximum simultaneously

3) Unable to put Special Powers or Talents into Frameworks

4) Must abort next phase to switch slots in the middle of a phase

 

 

[more missing comments from me about three types of pools, then you're own analysis of the types.

 

Understood and agreed with; I put the idea forth simply because you are trying to build a new mechanic, and therefore may have to alter the rules for this new mechanic. Powers in HERO are a lot like Magic cards: each one has a unique effect on the rules-- sort of mini rules-plug ins, all on their own.

 

Precisely. GM's are forced to turn to the VPP for the solution because it alone has the flexibility needed to cover the arena of Shapeshifting SFX.

 

But isn't this essentially what the power pool is for? A solution for power constructs too complex to be handled by the rules? As far as the 'price' of a pool in terms of gameplay, the price is there regardless of the SFX.

 

Now I agree that there may be something that might handle it better, and I'd like to understand what your proposal is. At the moment however, I seem to be missing it. Probably something extra-dense in me, but I would like to get into your ideas some more.

 

Solution: New Framework that has more Flexibility than a Multipower, but is much easier to use than a Variable Power Pool.

 

I think that the Forms Framework does this. At least I hope it does. (8^D)

 

Perhaps I need a re-word; I don't think I fully understand your proposed Forms Framework as presented. Or maybe a couple of examples. Those are always fun!

[Duke Bushido]

Re: New Mechanic: Shapeshift

 

I wanted to address this in more detail and separately.

 

You've got me thinking about the whole movement thing in general... < uh oh >

 

Let's take Running/Walking as a type of movement.

The character is walking across the lawn and comes to one of those little white picket fences for gardens (two feet high) and steps over it and continues walking.

 

Would you require another type of movement to step over the fence?

Of course not.

 

Now we take the same character but now he is 200 Feet tall. He goes walking across the lawn and comes to the house and steps over it and continues walking.

 

Would you require another type of movement to step over the house?

I'll let you think about that one for a moment.

 

Now we take the original character but now he is rubber man and can stretch 200 feet tall proportionally without changing his actual mass. He walks across the lawn and comes to the house and steps over it and continues walking.

Now for some reason this is supposed to require another type of movement?

 

Of course not, providing he's not exceeding his un-stretched movement. This is what I meant when I proposed Stretching as SFX, or at least, one example of it. As soon as a player decides that "well I can use my 30-yard legs to take tremendous strides; I should be able to walk along at fifty miles an hour easily!" That's when 'stretching' becomes the sfx for running.

 

And when "I stretch my head above the water and walk along the ocean floor" or "I stretch my body out like a raft for the folks who can't swim" happens, you get Stretching as SFX for Swimming and Swimming, useable by others, respectively.

 

Okay, now let's take another look at this from another viewpoint.

 

We have Rubber Man standing under a great oak tree with a limb that is 30 feet up. Rubber Man reaches up and grabs the branch and tries to lift himself onto the branch so he can sit there.

 

Now we've got a problem, such a task can't be done with Stretching since this type of trick is expressly forbidden with Stretching. Why? Because this is considered "movement" by the game.

 

This is where the too-specificness issues I have with 5e raise up again. In this case, you've witnessed movement. Call it climbing if you want (which _is_ movement, the same as tunneling or flying: either you suffer through slowly or your very good -- and fast-- at it), but it's movement. Granted, the rules put it as a skill, so I suppose the best interpretation is that Climbing (the skill) is a measure of how good you are at using your 'normal movement' vertically.....

 

Now here's the kicker... what kind of "movement" did we just witness? (8^D)

 

The generic kind

 

Seriously. One nice thing about being old is that you've run into a lot of stuff. We resolve this question by comparing the character's casual STR to his wieght, and if his casual STR allows a Grab strong enough to hold him, then he can ascend at his 'normal' movement rate _or_ his Stretching rate, whichever is higher. But that's just our group, and probably not what you're looking for. If his Casual STR isn't high enough, he uses his full STR (and at least two appendages) and moves at the slower of the two choices. And we only do this if there are easy handholds-- flagpoles, etc. If a Character wants to scale a wall, then he's going to have to use his Climbing skill. Though for vertical climbs, I have no problem letting him use his Stretch range as his movement rate for good rolls or relatively easy climbs.

 

(Do the rules really say you can't do this? Seriously?)

 

Running/Walking? Nope. His feet stayed right where they were.

Leaping? Nope. Again, his feet stayed right where they were.

 

For humor purposes only, I'd like to get nitty with you and mention that you described him pulling himself into the tree. I have to assume that at some point his feet were no longer where they were. This alone indicates that movement occured; he's standing somewhere else.

 

Climbing? Perhaps, but Climbing isn't a movement to start with and no vertical surface was even used.

 

All jokes aside, Climbing is one of those "everyman gets 8 or less" things. What you have done with your example is illustrate a "skills as Powers" thing; I believe this is discussed to unprecedented lengths in 5e (one of the good things). In fact, your example, to my own interpretation, drives home the idea of Stretching as SFX-- in this case, the SFX for Climbing.

 

 

Telekinesis? Nope.

 

By virtue of 'ranged STR' I'd have to say that this one comes close, but using TK to move yourself is forbidden in the rules, if I recall correctly.

 

So let's analize my first examples...

 

You're too late! I've done it already! :D Of course, if you've read this far, you know that.....

 

Any character can step over obstacles that are small enough to step over.

 

Right. I don't have issues with that. You're not stepping on any toes, as there is no 'step over things' power, or modifiers for other movement powers. Walk-without-tripping is an Everyman skill, I believe, and one I plan on learning very soon.

 

 

Now why was this prohibited by the rules?

 

I'd make a joke about bad writing, but someone would take it the wrong way, so I shan't.

 

Are you seriously certain that this is prohibited by the rules? For real? I mean, a lot of things are done for play balance (I touched on some in the post above, I think). Climbing is an Everyman skill, however. If you don't like my group's solution, you might consider allowing 'Extra reach' to give serious bonuses to this skill. That might even be somewhere in the errata, if the scenario you described is in fact expressly forbidden.

 

Stretching allows one to "reach" out and grab something. It simply extends what the character can already do. Reach out an grab something and then pull the rest of themselves to that spot.

 

In this respect it is a movement ability, but it is unique enough that it should be treated as a completely different type of movement.

 

Consider it to be a balance issue; the same reason that Growth no longer includes "free" AOE attacks, etc. If you need to rationalize it, consider that thirty-meter legs may take longer strides, but it takes more time to move them as well.

 

But as far as Stretching by itself being a movement power, your examples do not make an exclusive case; they also demonstrate that Stretching is just a simple SFX for Running and Climbing as well.

 

Does this mean Stretching should include movement for free?

No. The cost of that ability should be paid for within the power itself somehow. Whether as an adder, advantage, or limitations.

 

Why not with the appropriate power? Instead of Stretching, can be used as Running, can be used as swimming, can be used as +6 Climbing, why not by Running, Swimming, and +6 Climbing, define the SFX as stretching, and save yourself the cost of Stretching? (Unless of course you want the extra reach. But for that-- well, see the "STR with Ranged" thoughts in the previous post).

 

I have issues with many of the new Adders and Advantages, particularly the ones that say "can be used as something else." Especially when the rules say 'don't use something as something else. Buy something else.'

 

My own opinions, and my own issues, of course. But in the interest of discussion, alternate viewpoints help to stimulate ideas.

 

 

So far, so fun!

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Shapeshift

 

I'll address some of the specific issues below but I wanted to summarize and expound on some design philosophy I was getting at and you touched on also. (8^D)

 

One of the things Hero does (whether for better ro worse) is hide cetain abilities that are considered a given when simulating "Humans" in the game.

 

Here are the default human movement modes that the character gets for free:

Running

Swimming

Leaping

Climbing (Since you view it as such)

Swinging (Yes, you get swinging for free. Ever swing across monkey bars with your arms)

 

Everything is based on the Human norm as far as proportions. So if you want to step over a house, you must purchase Leaping. However, if you change your form (Growth, Shrinking, Shapeshift), the necessity for using a different type of movement changes. And I wish to emphasize something you may have missunderstood, and that is that changing form does NOT automatically scale your current movement modes you possess (Growth doesn't grant you more running by default). I'm only saying that changing form by definition may alter those things that a character is expected to normally do to include things that normally would require a different power to achieve. Thus, Growth may allow character to reach things that would normally require additional inches of leaping or flight.

 

[Aside] Growth does increase your base reach. Which is weird since it doesn't give you extra running. Inconsistencies, you gotta love 'em.

 

And when "I stretch my head above the water and walk along the ocean floor"...

Exactly, you've just shown how Walking/Running can be used as Swimming, even though the character may not know how to swim. Why? Because a "Human" automatically gets the ability to wade through water for free. Crossing the ocean would normally require Swimming or Flight, but by changing form the character bypasses the need for Swimming or Flight.

 

..or "I stretch my body out like a raft for the folks who can't swim" happens' date=' you get Stretching as SFX for Swimming and Swimming, useable by others, respectively.[/quote']

I guess if depends on your view of the role of Swimming. If a character could change form so that became a boat, but the character had no swimming, I'd still allow the drowning characters to climb aboard and float, even though they couldn't go anywhere (beyond paddling normally).

 

BTW: This last one wasn't an example of Stretching anyway, it was either Shapeshift with perhaps some Growth tacked on.

 

This is where the too-specificness issues I have with 5e raise up again. In this case' date=' you've witnessed movement. Call it climbing if you want (which _is_ movement, the same as tunneling or flying: either you suffer through slowly or your very good -- and fast-- at it), but it's movement. Granted, the rules put it as a skill, so I suppose the best interpretation is that Climbing (the skill) is a measure of how good you are at using your 'normal movement' vertically.....[/quote']

Okay, let's get technical per the rules.

 

Climbing is really stepping on the toes of Walking/Running (per your definition). Climbing a set of stairs is vertical movement and requires no handholds, even though there are for safety reasons.

 

However, the Climbing Skill at the 11- level implies that the character knows how to use Climbing Equipment to scale vertical surfaces that a nomal human couldn't walk or run up. The 8- level is there only to help simulate those tasks that would require your hands and feet such as climbing a tree, but only if there are branches or places that can easily be used for handholds and footholds, otherwise, Climbing equipment is required.

 

[Addendum] Clinging allows a character to simply walk up or run up vertical surfaces that can not be normally be traversed with Walking/Running.

 

But I've digressed too far. (8^D)

 

For humor purposes only' date=' I'd like to get nitty with you and mention that you described him pulling himself into the tree. I have to assume that at some point his feet were no longer where they were. This alone indicates that movement occured; he's standing somewhere else. [/quote']

Actually, I almost clarified further in anticipation of this question but decided not to. (8^D)

 

Again, this is where that whole "Human" thing comes into play again. If I sit in a high barstool and my feet end up dangling, have I moved?

Did I have to use Climbing to get into it?

If I had to use my tippytoes to get in it and didn't have to lift my feet to sit down, but once sat my feet no longer touched the floor, did I move and use climbing?

 

It's a matter of perspective. If I had described the character stretching up to the branch and sitting on it with his feet still on the ground, has he moved?

What if his feet were hanging one inch above the ground? One foot? Ten feet?

 

Where do you define when "movement" has occured?

When they move more than half thier mass to another location?

When they move all of their mass to another location?

 

How these are answered affects how one views stretching and shapeshifting abilities.

 

...In fact' date=' your example, to my own interpretation, drives home the idea of Stretching as SFX-- in this case, the SFX for Climbing.[/quote']

I agree that much of Stretching is SFX, but I disagree that it duplicates Climbing since he never has to use his feet to move (see my response above).

 

Another odd example. Character reaches up and pulls down a branch and sits on it and then is lifted into the air by the branch. Whether the character used Stretching or not, is this considered "movement"?

 

Good Lord can I talk a lot about insanely mundane things, or what? (8^D)

 

By virtue of 'ranged STR' I'd have to say that this one comes close' date=' but using TK to move yourself is forbidden in the rules, if I recall correctly.[/quote']

Doh!!! I meant Teleportation, not Telekinesis. (8^D)

And thanks for mentioning Tunneling. I knew I was forgetting one of the movement modes.

 

Are you seriously certain that this is prohibited by the rules? For real? I mean' date=' a lot of things are done for play balance (I touched on some in the post above, I think).[/quote']

Since you asked this twice, I decided I better look it up again to make sure.

Turns out that I was wrong on this particular issue.

Question: Can a character with Stretching reach out, grab

something, and then pull himself to it? For example, a

character has Stretching 10” — can he reach up and grab the

top of a 10” tall building and pull himself up to the roof?

Answer: Yes, he could do that, assuming he has sufficient

STR. This action typically requires a Full Phase. It only

requires a Half Phase if the total of (inches Stretched + inches

the character pulls himself) are less than or equal to half his Stretching.

However, with this ruling, I don't see how it is any different in using this to "move" from one location to another instead of Running, which the FAQs expressly forbids. Go figgur'.

 

But you do have this oddity.

Question: If a character has X” of Stretching does that

mean he can stretch his arms X”, and his legs X” at the same

time, effectively doubling the amount of Stretching he can

use?

Answer: No. The number of inches of Stretching a

character purchases represents the total amount of stretching

his body can use at any one time. If he uses all that to stretch

one body part, he can’t stretch the others; if he uses half of it

on one body part, half of it remains for another body part; and

so on.

 

Consider it to be a balance issue; the same reason that Growth no longer includes "free" AOE attacks' date=' etc. If you need to rationalize it, consider that thirty-meter legs may take longer strides, but it takes more time to move them as well.[/quote']

Well I don't remember Growth ever granting AOE. But I came in during 4th Edition. It also didn't grant extra reach but it does now.

 

But as far as Stretching by itself being a movement power' date=' your examples do not make an exclusive case; they also demonstrate that Stretching is just a simple SFX for Running and Climbing as well.[/quote']

Well now that FAQs has clarified. Stretching can be used as movement it seems.

But there is difference between Running/Climbing and the movement granted by Stretching.

 

Circumstance: Character's legs get broken.

Stretching is just SFX of Running = Character can't use Stretching for movement.

Stretching is unique Movement Abiility = Character can still use Stretching for movement.

 

Now if the character is using Stretching to give him extra inches of running due to the type of SFX specified, then of course they would lose those extra inches if his legs were broken, but the basic Stretching power goes far beyond that limited SFX.

 

Why not with the appropriate power? Instead of Stretching' date=' can be used as Running, can be used as swimming, can be used as +6 Climbing, why not by Running, Swimming, and +6 Climbing, define the SFX as stretching, and save yourself the cost of Stretching? (Unless of course you want the extra reach. But for that-- well, see the "STR with Ranged" thoughts in the previous post).[/quote']

Oh, I'm not saying your solution isn't equally valid.

 

But the solution I'm looking at encompasses much more than just the Stretching issue. It may actually eliminate the need to have Stretching at all, based on this conversation.

 

I have issues with many of the new Adders and Advantages' date=' particularly the ones that say "can be used as something else." Especially when the rules say 'don't use something as something else. Buy something else.'[/quote']

Well, I did say I preferred the Forms Framework as a solution. (8^D)

 

My own opinions' date=' and my own issues, of course. But in the interest of discussion, alternate viewpoints help to stimulate ideas.[/quote']

This was extremely stimulating and did make think about the basis of several things.

 

Thanks. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Mechanic: Shapeshift

 

Duke, I hope I didn't scare you off with all my responses. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins