VVP and AP limits

[OddHat]

Re: VVP and AP limits

 

I'm not sure what you mean here. How can the specialist throw a 30d6 EB if the campaign AP cap is 60 points? Obviously' date=' that's an assumption I tossed in there, but I think it's the whole point.[/quote']

 

Note that I said "drop the active point cap..." in the first sentance of the text you quoted. My meaning is that, if you don't use active point caps, VPP users shine much less compared to specialists.

 

I think it's pretty rare that a player will use 100% of his powers all the time. Even buying the VPP at over 2x effective cost (as in your example) doesn't really prevent it from being abusive. (At least, I dont' think it does.)

 

A VPP is not inherently abusive; like any framework in HERO, there are situations where it can be abused.

 

I think the truly cosmic VPP is the root of the problem. Cosmic VPPs are plot devices, not really player character concepts (although in a Galactic Champions game, it may work). The VPP should be limited strongly by character concept, genre, campaign and SFX. This doesn't happen automatically, the GM needs to take an active role.

 

I don't agree that Cosmic VPPs are always a problem; sometimes they fit, sometimes they don't. I do agree that a GM must take an active role in character creation, considering up front what will and won't work in his campaign.

[Vondy]

Re: VVP and AP limits

 

In general, as a GM, I don't consider the Control Cost of a VPP when calculating its active point value in terms of campaign limits insofar as the advantages purchased apply only to the pool. I only consider the pool itself, which is the total Active Points available for powers brought into play via the pool. Its only the common advantages (not lims) that might throw a power brought into play via the pool over campaign limitations. Additionally, in every group I've ever played with this was the unwritten assumption and standard. I think including the Control Cost when calculating the total AP of the pool would be an undue penalty. Based on a 60 Point Pool, any powers you purchase through the pool will top out at 60 AP, even with advantages, which is the campaign limit. And that's what matters in practical terms - the actual active points of the powers the player uses via the pool.

 

Just my to 2 AP.

[SteveZilla]

Re: VVP and AP limits

 

Yeah, but they can always whip out a 1" Megascale Teleport or XDM and opt out of the situation.

 

That's why I don't like instachange VPPs. Plot-busters and escape-anything artists.

 

Even if the VPP can make more than one attack power at the same time, they canot be used together -- even in a Multiple-Power Attack (5R, p311).

 

Even if it's a Cosmic VPP, it still can only be changed as a Zero-Phase Action, and generally only "use" points once per Phase (i.e., no chage-to-movement-power-use-movement (a half-move)-then-change-to-attack-power-and-attack).

 

And generally, VPPs are held to the same "Common Special Effects" as the other Frameworks. Personally, I am very leery of a character trying to fit everything and the kitchen sink into a VPP through "creative" (i.e., abusive) use of certain F/X -- like "It's Magic!", for instance.

 

And the GM still has final say over each and every power the VPP character tries to make with their framework.

[OddHat]

Re: VVP and AP limits

 

 

And the GM still has final say over each and every power the VPP charcter tries to make with their framework.

 

Always a good thing to remember. If you wouldn't allow it outside of a VPP, there's no reason to allow it inside of a VPP.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VVP and AP limits

 

And generally' date=' VPPs are held to the same "Common Special Effects" as the other Frameworks. Personally, I am very leery of a character trying to fit everything and the kitchen sink into a VPP through "creative" (i.e., abusive) use of certain F/X -- like "It's Magic!", for instance.[/quote']

 

Technically, a VPP can hold any power. Where the VPP is limited to "only powers of specific SFX" and this restructs the powers available, the control cost receives a limitation. IIRC, "Magic" was a -1/4 (although this would require defining how the specific Magic is limited in my game).

 

There's also no real SFX limitation on a Multipower under the rules as written.

[Cosmosemeritus]

Re: VVP and AP limits

 

I'm not sure what you mean here. How can the specialist throw a 30d6 EB if the campaign AP cap is 60 points? Obviously' date=' that's an assumption I tossed in there, but I think it's the whole point.[/quote']

 

I think he was saying that if you drop active point limits you avoid the issue of the generalist outshining the specialist.

 

Personally I don't drop them entirely but I enforce them only loosely depending on concept and scope of the character. I allow specialists to exceed the AP limits by 20-25%, allow basic VPP's pool to be equal to the active point limit, and limit the pool of an unlimited VPP to 66-80% of the AP limit.