Low recoil gun-fu

[Inu]

Stop me if you've seen this one before.

 

Sure, he's using low-powered shot, but that's still amazing shooting, and an amazing weapon.

 

Now, what do you need to simulate that in DC? (There are no rules for recoil, but surely that should give some bonus; also, the shooting skill -- just how many CSLs and PSLs is that, and how are they limited?)

[Vassoom]

Re: Low recoil gun-fu

 

Stop me if you've seen this one before.

 

Sure, he's using low-powered shot, but that's still amazing shooting, and an amazing weapon.

 

Now, what do you need to simulate that in DC? (There are no rules for recoil, but surely that should give some bonus; also, the shooting skill -- just how many CSLs and PSLs is that, and how are they limited?)

First of all, I hadn't seen that...and as someone who's been skeet shooting before, all I can say is: HOLY CRAP!

 

As for simulating that in DC, I'd take the following stab at it:

 

I know nothing about the Beretta Xtrema2, (except to NEVER piss off Tim Bradley if he's holding one!), but I would assume the weapon has RC2, which is a very high level built-in recoil compensator.

 

As for the shooter's skills:

 

1) Assume DEX 18. Within human norms, but at the very top of the "Competent" range and equal to those enormously gifted few who have also trained extensively, such as "Olympic athletes" and "elite soldiers". That gives a solid CV of 6 and any DEX-based skill roll of 13-.

 

2) WF: Shotgun (duh!)

 

3) The video tags him as an exhibition shooter, which is clearly evident. In the video, he mentions the accuracy challenges for shooting both rifle and shotgun, although we never see him shoot a rifle in this video. However, I'm willing to bet that he's probably pretty good with them as well...so let's be generous and give him four 5 pt CSLs: +4 w/ Ranged Combat. That gives him a very impressive 10 OCV w/ that shotgun before we get to anything else.

 

4) He executes a LOT of multi-target shooting, one of which shows him walking over to grab the shotgun and then wheeling around and firing, which indicates that he clearly has "Rapid Attack - Ranged".

 

5) The fraction of a second it takes him to bring the weapon up, aim, and fire in several of the tricks is extremely impressive, so I'd also give him the Lightning Reflexes Talent, +5 w/ Shotguns, giving him an effective 23 DEX when it comes to acting first with a shotgun.

 

6) Since he's hand-tossing them, nearly all of the pigeons that he shoots are well within 8" (50 feet), which would only call for PSL: +2 vs. Range with Shotgun. However, he probably has lots more than that...

 

7) We see him shoot the shotgun one-handed using each hand, so he would have a decent STR (perhaps 15, or maybe just 13 with a relatively low STR min for the weapon) and the "Ambidexterity" Talent (or maybe the "Two-Weapon Fighting" Skill, if you want to push it).

 

From this point, there are plenty of different ways to buy his impressive targeting skill with the shotgun, including quite a few more shotgun-specific 3 pt CSLs, tons of hit location PSLs to hit the small targets, tons of PSLs to offset Rapid Fire penalties, and/or maybe even Autofire Skills, if you really want to stretch it.

 

However, in my opinion, the easiest way would be to just use the "Power" skill. This 3/2 skill would allow him to base his "Shooting Tricks" on a DEX-based skill roll rather than straight combat maneuvers. I would figure that he has "Power: Shotgun Shooting Tricks (DEX)" on about a 21 or less, a 19 point skill. Depending on how hard some of those stunts really are, you could bump it up even more. (Remember, they don't show the clips in which he may have missed one or more of the targets... )

 

Since we don't know what his shotgun's load is, and assuming the choke is wide open, a few of the tricks are probably just "difficult" or "challenging" rather than "ridiculously hard". But there were several of them that were downright "insane".

 

No matter how you would end up building them, that guy's definitely got some mad shotgun skillz!

 

- Vassoom

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Low recoil gun-fu

 

Recoil is the primary factor in STR Min for firearms, so this shotgun would definitely have a lower STR Min than average.

 

And while I'm sure that they wouldn't have put any misses into this clip, most of us would have to tape ourselves shooting for a year to get that many perfect hits. Mad skillz indeed.

[Brother Jim]

Re: Low recoil gun-fu

 

WOW !!!!

 

Checked out the Beretta website, the Extrema2 runs from $1100 to $1600 US.

[DEFCON Clown]

Re: Low recoil gun-fu

 

Is there a way I can rep Tim Bradley?

[Vassoom]

Re: Low recoil gun-fu

 

Is there a way I can rep Tim Bradley?

LOL.

 

Ummm...YES! Yes, there is! Just rep me, and I'll make sure it gets to Tim!

 

Speaking of which, here's some rep for Inu for posting the URL to the awesome video!

 

- Vassoom

[gewing]

Re: Low recoil gun-fu

 

First of all, I hadn't seen that...and as someone who's been skeet shooting before, all I can say is: HOLY CRAP!

 

As for simulating that in DC, I'd take the following stab at it:

 

I know nothing about the Beretta Xtrema2, (except to NEVER piss off Tim Bradley if he's holding one!), but I would assume the weapon has RC2, which is a very high level built-in recoil compensator.

 

As for the shooter's skills:

 

1) Assume DEX 18. Within human norms, but at the very top of the "Competent" range and equal to those enormously gifted few who have also trained extensively, such as "Olympic athletes" and "elite soldiers". That gives a solid CV of 6 and any DEX-based skill roll of 13-.

 

2) WF: Shotgun (duh!)

 

3) The video tags him as an exhibition shooter, which is clearly evident. In the video, he mentions the accuracy challenges for shooting both rifle and shotgun, although we never see him shoot a rifle in this video. However, I'm willing to bet that he's probably pretty good with them as well...so let's be generous and give him four 5 pt CSLs: +4 w/ Ranged Combat. That gives him a very impressive 10 OCV w/ that shotgun before we get to anything else.

 

4) He executes a LOT of multi-target shooting, one of which shows him walking over to grab the shotgun and then wheeling around and firing, which indicates that he clearly has "Rapid Attack - Ranged".

 

5) The fraction of a second it takes him to bring the weapon up, aim, and fire in several of the tricks is extremely impressive, so I'd also give him the Lightning Reflexes Talent, +5 w/ Shotguns, giving him an effective 23 DEX when it comes to acting first with a shotgun.

 

6) Since he's hand-tossing them, nearly all of the pigeons that he shoots are well within 8" (50 feet), which would only call for PSL: +2 vs. Range with Shotgun. However, he probably has lots more than that...

 

7) We see him shoot the shotgun one-handed using each hand, so he would have a decent STR (perhaps 15, or maybe just 13 with a relatively low STR min for the weapon) and the "Ambidexterity" Talent (or maybe the "Two-Weapon Fighting" Skill, if you want to push it).

 

From this point, there are plenty of different ways to buy his impressive targeting skill with the shotgun, including quite a few more shotgun-specific 3 pt CSLs, tons of hit location PSLs to hit the small targets, tons of PSLs to offset Rapid Fire penalties, and/or maybe even Autofire Skills, if you really want to stretch it.

 

However, in my opinion, the easiest way would be to just use the "Power" skill. This 3/2 skill would allow him to base his "Shooting Tricks" on a DEX-based skill roll rather than straight combat maneuvers. I would figure that he has "Power: Shotgun Shooting Tricks (DEX)" on about a 21 or less, a 19 point skill. Depending on how hard some of those stunts really are, you could bump it up even more. (Remember, they don't show the clips in which he may have missed one or more of the targets... )

 

Since we don't know what his shotgun's load is, and assuming the choke is wide open, a few of the tricks are probably just "difficult" or "challenging" rather than "ridiculously hard". But there were several of them that were downright "insane".

 

No matter how you would end up building them, that guy's definitely got some mad shotgun skillz!

 

- Vassoom

 

 

pretty good summation, but the video is an example of why imo the basic hero system rules tend to have problems with rate of fire and firearms.

 

Yes, you can work out how to achieve such abilities, but a relatively average person firing 5 aimed shots from a .22 pistol in 10 seconds pushes the limits a bit. That is the basic rapid fire phase in NRA Bullseye pistol competition. if the average person is speed 2, he fires a double fire on phase 12, another on phase 6, but that leaves one round. .

 

speed 3 could do it, 2 in 12, 2 on 4, one on 8.

 

Speed 4 has it relatively easy, 2 on 12, one on 3, 6, and 9, though that is cutting it close.

 

funny, I thought I remembered it only being a 5 second phase of fire, which would have made it a LOT harder.

 

Lets look at Highpower rifle. The slow fire stages are easy, one minute per shot. The rapid fire strings should be pretty easy in game terms too.

 

Shooter drops from standing to sitting or prone, so 1/2 move?

then he has 60 seconds to fire 10 rounds, with one mandatory magazine change after 2 rounds. at 200 yards, braced, using the sling, it works fairly well. lets see, 1/2 move, fire one shot on 12, then another on 6, then change magazines on 12(and check scope usually) then just 8 shots left with 4 turns to go... even speed 2 can do it.

 

It has been a LONG time since I shot the course of fire, but IIRC

 

In reality, it goes more like 2-3 seconds to drop into position and get set, then about 5 seconds to fire two rounds, then about 5-10 seconds to change magazines and check scope. Then the rest of the rounds, I used to often have at least 10 seconds left at the end.

 

I'm glacially slow.

 

I once watched the Army reserve team firing an "Infantry trophy" practice match. Though the rules call for (in 50 seconds) iirc 6 hits on each of 6 targets for the 4 man team(in order to "square" the targets, preventing a penalty), the rules give more points for hits at the longer ranges. The competitive teams expend their ammo at the longer ranges, and never get to the 200 yard standing distance.

 

One of the guys on the team had a jam in his M14 National Match. The coach had another shooter swing over and put probably 6 rounds into the target to ensure it was "squared" Toby managed to clear the jam, and proceeded to put probably 16 more shots into it at a rate that was staggering. If it took him 15 seconds, I would be surprised. He had a weird prone position that one nearly needed to be a contortionist to get into, but it allowed him to use his full body weight and friction to absorb the recoil. I don't remember everything, but iirc there were 31 bullet holes in the target, only ONE was outside the silhouette, by maybe one inch.

 

In the short lived individual rattle battle matches held in Texas, he won the state championship with 41 hits on the silhouette in 50 seconds, at 600 yards, dropping from standing to prone.

[gewing]

Re: Low recoil gun-fu

 

I think I found out why I thought the rapid fire times were shorter.

 

IN internation/Olympic style shooting, the rapid fire is set up as 2 stages of 30 rounds each

 

Each stage consists of 3 pairs of 5 shot strings.

 

2at 8 seconds per string

2 at 6 seconds per string

2 at 4 seconds per string.

 

 

oh, btw, this is at 25 meters

[Vassoom]

Re: Low recoil gun-fu

 

pretty good summation, but the video is an example of why imo the basic hero system rules tend to have problems with rate of fire and firearms.

 

Yes, you can work out how to achieve such abilities, but a relatively average person firing 5 aimed shots from a .22 pistol in 10 seconds pushes the limits a bit. That is the basic rapid fire phase in NRA Bullseye pistol competition. if the average person is speed 2, he fires a double fire on phase 12, another on phase 6, but that leaves one round. .

 

speed 3 could do it, 2 in 12, 2 on 4, one on 8.

Interesting point. However, is it your contention, then, that the "average" person can successfully pull off firing 5 aimed shots on target in 10 seconds?

 

I would tend to think the average person would definitely NOT be able to do so. (Shoot five rounds, sure. On target? Not likely.) When I think of my mother, or my sister, or my uncle, or even a couple of the guys I game with each week...I don't think they could do it. I could do it (and did so with moderate success just last week), as could my wife and her father (former law enforcement, he has multiple skill levels), but the "average" person? Not likely, imho.

 

You have to consider that 1) the "average" person in the real world (as well as in HERO) is decidedly not very competent at things like that, and 2) the subset of the general population you would expect to get for a marksmanship test is probably not going to be truly "average". Nearly all of them are probably significantly better at such tasks than the random 2 SPD/6-10 DEX mook grabbed randomly off the street.

 

I would counter that almost anyone trying to accomplish this particular feat in the first place would either A) have had significant weapons practice, and therefore own a couple of skill levels to help them achieve success, or possibly have less practice, but slightly greater physical gifts than average (higher SPD and/or DEX) to help them achieve success. I doubt very few people without at least one of the two options above would even have an interest in marksmanship or target shooting, since they would royally suck at it. But the average cop could do it easily, because of their extensive training (skill levels), and anyone at an NRA-style contest with any marksmanship yearnings is likely to be more gifted or sufficiently practiced to squeeze off a few quick rounds and hit the target. (Of course, in the interest of full disclosure, I also tweaked my campaign's rules to make Rapid Fire a little less difficult, dropping the penalty to a mere -1 OCV per extra shot rather than -2. )

 

So while I agree with you that the HERO system definitely starts to break down a touch at the extremes (as nearly all systems do), I don't think this example is necessarily a very fair test to gauge the ability of an "average" person. The next time you're standing in line at the DMV, consider a random sampling of them trying to rapid fire a gun on target. *shudders*

 

- Vassoom

[Vassoom]

Re: Low recoil gun-fu

 

I think I found out why I thought the rapid fire times were shorter.

 

IN internation/Olympic style shooting, the rapid fire is set up as 2 stages of 30 rounds each

 

Each stage consists of 3 pairs of 5 shot strings.

 

2at 8 seconds per string

2 at 6 seconds per string

2 at 4 seconds per string.

 

oh, btw, this is at 25 meters

25 meters?!? Yikes. No way I could pull any of that off.

 

I guess that's why it's a competition for experts, huh?

 

- Vassoom

[gewing]

Re: Low recoil gun-fu

 

Interesting point. However' date=' is it your contention, then, that the "average" person [i']can[/i] successfully pull off firing 5 aimed shots on target in 10 seconds?

 

I would tend to think the average person would definitely NOT be able to do so. (Shoot five rounds, sure. On target? Not likely.) When I think of my mother, or my sister, or my uncle, or even a couple of the guys I game with each week...I don't think they could do it. I could do it (and did so with moderate success just last week), as could my wife and her father (former law enforcement, he has multiple skill levels), but the "average" person? Not likely, imho.

 

You have to consider that 1) the "average" person in the real world (as well as in HERO) is decidedly not very competent at things like that, and 2) the subset of the general population you would expect to get for a marksmanship test is probably not going to be truly "average". Nearly all of them are probably significantly better at such tasks than the random 2 SPD/6-10 DEX mook grabbed randomly off the street.

 

I would counter that almost anyone trying to accomplish this particular feat in the first place would either A) have had significant weapons practice, and therefore own a couple of skill levels to help them achieve success, or possibly have less practice, but slightly greater physical gifts than average (higher SPD and/or DEX) to help them achieve success. I doubt very few people without at least one of the two options above would even have an interest in marksmanship or target shooting, since they would royally suck at it. But the average cop could do it easily, because of their extensive training (skill levels), and anyone at an NRA-style contest with any marksmanship yearnings is likely to be more gifted or sufficiently practiced to squeeze off a few quick rounds and hit the target. (Of course, in the interest of full disclosure, I also tweaked my campaign's rules to make Rapid Fire a little less difficult, dropping the penalty to a mere -1 OCV per extra shot rather than -2. )

 

So while I agree with you that the HERO system definitely starts to break down a touch at the extremes (as nearly all systems do), I don't think this example is necessarily a very fair test to gauge the ability of an "average" person. The next time you're standing in line at the DMV, consider a random sampling of them trying to rapid fire a gun on target. *shudders*

 

- Vassoom

 

 

Well, while I did a great deal of shooting as a kid, I don't think anyone who knows me would say I am "Quick"

 

I forgot another thing about the International rapid fire strings. They are at 25 yards, the times are as stated earlier, but each shot is at a separate target

 

My cousin's wife is a world class pistol shot, he is an olympic level rifle shot.

[Vassoom]

Re: Low recoil gun-fu

 

Well' date=' while I did a great deal of shooting as a kid, I don't think anyone who knows me would say I am "Quick" [/quote']

See, the beauty is, even if you feel you are a SPD 2, all you need are a couple of Penalty Skill Levels to offset Rapid Fire penalties in order to pass that test.

I forgot another thing about the International rapid fire strings. They are at 25 yards' date=' the times are as stated earlier, but each shot is at a separate target [/quote']Ok, that's just plain crazy hard.

 

- Vassoom