Music Instrument Familiarity

[Shike019]

Ok, I know I’ve mentioned this in the Ultimate Skill (Micro review) forum, but felt it deserved more notice.

 

My one and only gripe about the ultimate skill (for which I believe it is the best $35 spent I can think of) is with the Musical Instrument Familiarity Skill.

 

In my opinion (as a musician who has played most band instruments in performance) the categorization of the instruments is quite off.

 

This is how I would have done it.

 

Brass Instruments

- Low Brass (Trombone, Baritone, Tuba, Euphonium, etc)

- High Brass (Trumpet, French Horn, Flugel Horn, etc.)

Woodwinds

- Single Reeds (Clarinet, Saxophone, etc)

- Double Reeds (Oboe, English Horn, Bassoon, etc)

- Flutes (Flute, Piccolo, etc)

Strings

- High Strings (Violin, Viola, etc)

- Low Strings (Cello, Bass, etc)

- Lutes (Guitars, Lutes, mandolins, etc)

Keyboard Instruments (Piano, Harpsichord, Organ)

Percussion

- Xylophones (Marimba, Vibraphone, etc)

- Drums (Snare, Bass, etc)

- Kit (drum set)

Other

- Hammered Dulcimer

Etc.

 

These categories are more inline with how the instruments are played (and as proof I have my own experience playing them. My list of instruments is, Saxophone Family (Baritone, Tenor, Alto, Soprano), Clarinet Family (Bb and Contrabass), Trombone, Baritone, Tuba, Trumpet, Flute, Oboe, Bassoon, and Piano.[all instruments in italics I have performed with])

 

Again, I want to reiterate that I absolutely love this book.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Music Instrument Familiarity

 

If you play both bassoon and oboe, then you are probably aware that the fingerings are quite different -- for example, G on an oboe is all three left fingers closed and all right fingers open, whereas on a bassoon it's three closed fingers on each hand.

 

I've performed with saxophone, flute, bassoon, and Latin percussion, and trained or had other experiences with recorder, keyboard, clarinet, trumpet, trap drums, and guitar. The similarities of playing, particularly on wind and string instruments, comes more from the fingering than from the way the sound is produced. I've seen flute players come into playing saxophone with only two or three changes of fingerings, and I did the reverse myself, but when I went from saxophone to bassoon I had to learn a whole different way of fingering.

 

(Note: I don't yet have the book myself, but I had some discussion with Steve regarding this topic a few years back. As I recall what you propose is what he had originally planned, and I explained this same thing to him; I'm guessing he went with my recommendations.)

[Shike019]

Re: Music Instrument Familiarity

 

If you play both bassoon and oboe, then you are probably aware that the fingerings are quite different -- for example, G on an oboe is all three left fingers closed and all right fingers open, whereas on a bassoon it's three closed fingers on each hand.

 

Yes, I fully agree, but almost all the woodwinds (clarinet, sax, flute, oboe, etc) have a common fingering scheme (Not necessarilly exact, but very similar). Also, an English Horn is a larger version of an oboe (never actually played one, but have had discussions with professionals on the topic).

 

In Steve's scheme, he put saxophones with brass instruments (trumpet, trombone, etc) and had English horn and French Horn a seperate group.

 

I actually loaned my copy to our GM for the week, so I can't actually more fully describe the scheme he used, but it didn't make sense to me as a musician.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Music Instrument Familiarity

 

Yes' date=' I fully agree, but almost all the woodwinds (clarinet, sax, flute, oboe, etc) have a common fingering scheme (Not necessarilly exact, but very similar). Also, an English Horn is a larger version of an oboe (never actually played one, but have had discussions with professionals on the topic).[/quote']Yes, this is quite so.

In Steve's scheme, he put saxophones with brass instruments (trumpet, trombone, etc) and had English horn and French Horn a seperate group.

You're absolutely correct here -- saxophones in the Brass category is just plain wrong. Just because it's (generally) made of brass doesn't make it not a woodwind. English Horn definitely goes with oboe (as you say, just a larger version of oboe) and French Horn should be a subcategory within Brass.

 

This is even worse than the "Supersonic Finger Snap" in USPD/TUSp.

[zornwil]

Re: Music Instrument Familiarity

 

Bear in mind, there's "dramatically correct" versus reality. That being said, it makes sense to tailor to the needs of the play group. Most laypeople would be thrown not being able to apply sax abilities to a trumpet (though I'd just put "horns" and maybe "woodwinds" into separate groups and leave it at that), even though they are of course very different. And it also matters how much such things matter in the game at hand - in a game centering around musical abilities every instrument should be broken out possibly with a GURPS-like or language-like familiarity table.

 

But, to the point itself, sure.

[Phil]

Re: Music Instrument Familiarity

 

1) This is overly anal

 

2) I'm interested too

 

I think categorising on familiarity categories is an exercise in madness, because of differing similarities across the groups. Saxophone is a doddle for any oboist, because the fingers are near identical and the embouchre is close enough. Same with the Recorder. Flute on the other hand has very similar fingers but significantly different embouchre and remains the one woodwind instrument that stubbornly escapes me! English Horn (yuck - much prefer the European Cor Anglais!) is identical fingering to oboe and if you're an oboist take the earliest possible opportunity to play one, because it's a wonderful experience!

 

Basson, embouchre wise is like an easy oboe, but the larger double reed is simple enough for pretty much any wind instrumentalist to blow. However, finger-wise it is not at all like oboe but more akin to the clarinet, which confuses the hell out of me at the higher ranges with all those odd side keys! Similarly, tuned percussion like the glockenspiel probably is equally familiar to kit player as to a pianist.

 

I'm not a string-player, but an excellent violinist friend of mine would often lark about strumming his violin as if it were a banjo. I suspect transferability is extremely high between these instruments, but that may depend on formality or informality of musical education. I doubt if many rock guitarists could pick up a cello, but I bet most cellists could relatively quickly do the reverse.

 

If you really wanted to do this accurately, you might be better off evaluating each instrument in terms of a range of sub-skills of which the three core *might* be Listening/Pitching, Rhythm and Technicality (you could potentially add Reading in here). Some instruments require higher levels of the generic skills such as Brass (Listening/Pitching) and Percussion (Rhythm) and as such, are more quickly 'familiar' for a competent musician. On the other hand, no matter how good your pitching and rhythmic ability, you wont be able to just pick up the clarinet and play a tune, because it has a high technical requirement.

 

Of course, there's another more narrative familiarity to consider, which is environment. Most of my playing has been in Symphonic Windband, so I play oboe and saxophone (and piano), taught myself bassoon and clarinet years ago, tampered with percussion, and know I can get a tune out of a trumpet or trombone. A guitarist with a rock n roll background will have spent occasional free moments bashing kit or playing electric bass.

 

I almost suspect that the best way to do this is to have two skills - core musical skill, and Professional Skill to pick up the slack and fringe familiarities. After all, I cant imagine many games where having a musical familiarity is worth more than a fraction of a point.

 

Phil "How many points for Musical Familiarity: Baton?"

[Shike019]

Re: Music Instrument Familiarity

 

Phil, I completely agree with you, but it just struck me as odd, as a musician of most of the wind instruments, that some of them appeared, to me, to be miss categorized. But you have to agree that a person buying woodwinds, should, in fact, be able to play sax. A person buying brass should get French horn.

[32767]

Re: Music Instrument Familiarity

 

Phil "How many points for Musical Familiarity: Baton?"

Wouldn't that be procussion?

Maybe cranial anatomy would be a complimentary skill?

[alexraccoon]

Re: Music Instrument Familiarity

 

The press over here are running a story that music lessons for children make them smarter and more intelligent so should music skills give you a bonus for intelligence characteristic:)

[Shike019]

Re: Music Instrument Familiarity

 

The press over here are running a story that music lessons for children make them smarter and more intelligent so should music skills give you a bonus for intelligence characteristic:)

 

It is not so much as makes you smarter, but helps in forming certian types of neural connections, for things such as music (appreciation), math, and logic. (to name a few)

[Phil]

Re: Music Instrument Familiarity

 

It is not so much as makes you smarter' date=' but helps in forming certian types of neural connections, for things such as music (appreciation), math, and logic. (to name a few)[/quote']

 

I've oft heard this and am personally a strong advocate for mass music lessons for this very reason. However, I'm always skeptical of such comments because I'm concerned whether analyses have effectively taken account of reverse inferences (intelligent people play music, rather than music making you intelligent) and societal links (if you have music lessons you are more likely to be at least moderately wealthy, if you are at least moderately wealthy you may be more likely to have had better nutrition, access to books from a young age, parental nurturing, better education or inherited intelligence).

 

Still, my advice is err on the side of caution. Get them kids on instruments sharpish. Apart from anything else, two musical tours to Germany and annual residential courses make up some of my fondest and most, er, interesting teenage memories

 

Phil "One time, at bandcamp...."

[Shike019]

Re: Music Instrument Familiarity

 

I've oft heard this and am personally a strong advocate for mass music lessons for this very reason. However, I'm always skeptical of such comments because I'm concerned whether analyses have effectively taken account of reverse inferences (intelligent people play music, rather than music making you intelligent) and societal links (if you have music lessons you are more likely to be at least moderately wealthy, if you are at least moderately wealthy you may be more likely to have had better nutrition, access to books from a young age, parental nurturing, better education or inherited intelligence).

 

Still, my advice is err on the side of caution. Get them kids on instruments sharpish. Apart from anything else, two musical tours to Germany and annual residential courses make up some of my fondest and most, er, interesting teenage memories

 

Phil "One time, at bandcamp...."

 

Again, yes, I agree with you. Though my undergraduate thesis was on this topic, it is still very debatable.

 

Weather or not it actually "creates inteligence" it is proven that it does instill a sense of accopmlishment and discipline (though in some cases minor discipline) into children.

 

There is research proving that human thought processes, when mapped in the Trion Modle and parsed through a MIDI sequencer (Each row of 5 pixles equals a note) confer's descrete "styles" of music through the sequencer. (Keeping Mozart in Mind)

 

yes, these are the people who did the famous "Mozart Effect" study, which their results found that listening to Mozart Sonata (K.448) enhances Spatial-Tempral reasoning for about 15 minutes.

 

This study was done to obtain grant money for their longterm project which included teaching children piano and watching their progress against a group of like children (close aproximation of all factors) over time.

[Shike019]

Re: Music Instrument Familiarity

 

Bear in mind, there's "dramatically correct" versus reality. That being said, it makes sense to tailor to the needs of the play group. Most laypeople would be thrown not being able to apply sax abilities to a trumpet (though I'd just put "horns" and maybe "woodwinds" into separate groups and leave it at that), even though they are of course very different. And it also matters how much such things matter in the game at hand - in a game centering around musical abilities every instrument should be broken out possibly with a GURPS-like or language-like familiarity table.

 

But, to the point itself, sure.

 

But if you just look at a Sax and a trumpet next to each other they have nothing incommon aside from the material they are made of.

 

Of course in most jazz circles, anyone who plays a wind instrument is playing a "horn".

 

And, truth to tell, learning 1 musical instrument makes it easy to learn others of similar type, by this I mean winds (both woodwinds and brass), Strings (both high and low), Keyboards/percussion, etc.

 

At the beginning it's all about learning how to read music (and not just the music on the page, but to "hear" how music is produced, and what sounds go together, etc.) After that picking up other instruments is relatively easy.

 

 

Cheers

 

 

Shike

 

 

P.S. On a personal note, I have trouble with High brass (trumpets, French Horns, Flugel horns, etc) because of the size of the brass mouthpiece (its just too damn small for me).

[zornwil]

Re: Music Instrument Familiarity

 

But if you just look at a Sax and a trumpet next to each other they have nothing incommon aside from the material they are made of.

 

Of course in most jazz circles, anyone who plays a wind instrument is playing a "horn".

 

And, truth to tell, learning 1 musical instrument makes it easy to learn others of similar type, by this I mean winds (both woodwinds and brass), Strings (both high and low), Keyboards/percussion, etc.

 

At the beginning it's all about learning how to read music (and not just the music on the page, but to "hear" how music is produced, and what sounds go together, etc.) After that picking up other instruments is relatively easy.

 

 

Cheers

 

 

Shike

 

 

P.S. On a personal note, I have trouble with High brass (trumpets, French Horns, Flugel horns, etc) because of the size of the brass mouthpiece (its just too damn small for me).

To be clear, I'm saying the fact that trumpet and sax are so dissimilar in real life has nothing to do with the perceptions of laypeople who want to play a secret agent who knows how to play sax. I'm well aware of the differences (although I will add that since I play more in free improv circles, most of my friends who can play horns at all interchange all manner of horns and just go for it given the spirit of that music, though that has nothing to do of course with the actual craft, per se, of playing)

[Vondy]

Re: Music Instrument Familiarity

 

I've been reading this and, you know, the more granular the system gets the less I feel like using it. I know its following the trend that 4th Edition to its logical conclusion, but there does come a point where that conclusion becomes a logical extreme. And logical extremes are frequently unreasonable, or unsustainable in practice. There comes a point where the granularity becomes self-defeating.

 

I would think, for a Jazz musician who knew several insturments, PS: Jazz Musician and a good character background would cover it. Or, going a step farther, a few professional skills (since, with Jack of Trades, you also get the break on other skills).

[Shike019]

Re: Music Instrument Familiarity

 

I would think' date=' for a Jazz musician who knew several insturments, PS: Jazz Musician and a good character background would cover it. Or, going a step farther, a few professional skills (since, with Jack of Trades, you also get the break on other skills).[/quote']

 

I like this idea. And will most likely use it vs. the new familiarity skill. It makes more sense.

[zornwil]

Re: Music Instrument Familiarity

 

That's how I normally do it.

 

I think the musical familiarity chart is really for very specific applications (such as aforementioned, a game centering around music - though in that case, of course, the more accurate/realistic chart that kicked this thread off would be desirable).

 

However, if you have a character who has no relevant PS and is a "hobbyist" who has some decent skill in sax, having an idea in one's head of how far you want to go with modifiers does make sense. I probably wouldn't use a formal chart, just wing it accordingly.

[Kenn]

Re: Music Instrument Familiarity

 

*Heh* It's my brother who got most of the musical talent in our gene pool, and our sister got the rest. Me? I'm musically inclined when I lean on a piano.

 

Still, it's an interesting thread.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Music Instrument Familiarity

 

I would think' date=' for a Jazz musician who knew several insturments, PS: Jazz Musician and a good character background would cover it. Or, going a step farther, a few professional skills (since, with Jack of Trades, you also get the break on other skills).[/quote']For the vast bulk of games, this is the way to go (or, actually, I'd give a PS for each instrument type, but the principle is the same). MIF really only makes a difference for a game where music plays a large role. If the list had been properly sorted, it could also give an idea of what instruments really are similar to play.