What Do Active Points Represent To You?

[Vurbal]

One of my favorite things about Hero is the differentiation between active and real points. To me active points represent the maximum potential of a power. The one place I see a problem with this model is when you completely remove part of a power's mechanical effect. When you do that, assuming my model of active points as maximum capability, it would seem to make more sense to apply a limitation to the base points before applying advantages.

 

For example, let's say you build a fairly straight forward Energy Blast with the No Range limitation. No matter what circumstances you use this power in it will never be usable at range, but it will have the same active points as if it were. Compare that to an EB with a limitation like OIHID that won't be available all the time, but when it is available will be every bit as effective as if it didn't have the limitation.

 

On one hand active points don't make as much difference to me as they once did since I haven't played in a game that used AP limits to balance characters in years. OTOH they still make a difference with respect to frameworks. And of course the END is an issue as well. The No Range EB from the example above costs just as much END as one that's ranged. Assuming you're putting advantages on you'll also have a difference in real points.

 

I can see why the system works the way it does - for the sake of simplicity, but simplicity isn't everything. If it was we wouldn't have active points at all. I also realize that not every example of this would be equally simple to modify. If you apply the No Range limitation to the base cost of an EB it's a nice, clean 3 AP per die. OTOH maybe you want an EB that isn't ranged and also doesn't do BODY. Applying a 3/4 limitation still gets you a base cost of 3 AP per die, whereas it would give you a bigger difference in real cost if applied normally. In fact you could get some very strange results if you consider the following:

 

The Normal column indicates real cost after a -3/4 limitation and the second indicates the real cost for adjusting the base EB cost by -3/4. Half dice are assumed to be 2 AP.

        Normal | Base Adj
       --------+----------
1/2d6      2    |     2
1d6        3    |     3
1 1/2d6    4    |     5
2d6        6    |     6
2 1/2d6    7    |     8
3d6        8    |     9

 

You could fix it by making it 5 AP per 2d6, but that doesn't really feel right because you spend a different number of points for another die, depending on whether you currently have an odd or even number and it adds even more complexity:

        Normal | Base Adj
       --------+----------
1/2d6      2    |     2
1d6        3    |     3
1 1/2d6    4    |     4
2d6        6    |     5
2 1/2d6    7    |     7
3d6        8    |     8

 

So do you think this is too much work for too little reward? Is it even worth worrying about? If so, is this the best solution or is there a better way to handle it?

 

Edit: Another thought is that this is simply a side effect of powers having multiple effects and there's no good way to deal with it unless you break the system down into smaller building blocks. Normal attack powers in particular have basic characteristics of being ranged or not and adding to STR or not. Logically, a ranged attack should require a bigger END expenditure than an attack with no range, but in Hero terms it doesn't. In 4th Ed this works out fine for hand attacks because they're only 3 AP per die, but STR damage is still at the full 5 AP per die. Since that also gets into the issue of whether STR is underpriced (which I'm not really trying to get into here) I won't follow that line of reasoning any further.

[Rapier]

Re: What Do Active Points Represent To You?

 

Waaaaaay to much work, for very little utility.

 

AP, RP, Advantages and Limitations are one of the big fundamentals. You can't play with one without playing with all the rest. You would be better off to start from scratch and develop your own hero-type game.

[Vurbal]

Re: What Do Active Points Represent To You?

 

Waaaaaay to much work, for very little utility.

 

AP, RP, Advantages and Limitations are one of the big fundamentals. You can't play with one without playing with all the rest. You would be better off to start from scratch and develop your own hero-type game.

That certainly occured to me, and I should probably mention that I see this as more of a theoretical issue since it's only worth putting so much work into. I also wouldn't worry about it for superheroic games because a couple of points here and there (either active or real) don't make all that much difference. I'm primarily looking at it from the POV of someone who mostly plays heroic level, where a little bit of added granularity can make a big difference.

 

In reality it wouldn't necessarily require a complete rewrite of the system, but it would probably require something of a reverse engineering to come up with more basic components to build powers from. The big problem is that attack powers in particular would need to have a base cost built from scratch using a system that more or less results in the same values the system currently uses (which I find to be generally as balanced as you can get).

 

I'll have to think on the subject more, which is fine since that's the kind of thing I normally do to clear my head out at work.

[Rapier]

Re: What Do Active Points Represent To You?

 

Although, I never actually did answer your Fundamental Question: "What do Active Points represent to me?"

 

Active Points are the measure by which I measure a character against other characters in the campaign. While I rarely use maxims and caps, they are rather common. Different powers cost different amounts for different effects. How do you gauge the relative strength of a Transform against a Hand Attack? You can't gauge it on dice. 3d6 HA costs 10 pts and a 3d6 Major Transform costs 45 pts. How do you gauge the powers of an 8d6 AP EB vs another EB?

 

Limitations are not the opposite of Advantages. Advantages increase the relative power of a...Power (I hate it when that happens), whereas Limitations decrease the usefulness of the Power. They are related, but not opposites.

 

That is what Active Points mean to me, they are a gauge of the relative power of a...(sigh, did it again)...Power.

[Vurbal]

Re: What Do Active Points Represent To You?

 

Limitations are not the opposite of Advantages. Advantages increase the relative power of a...Power (I hate it when that happens), whereas Limitations decrease the usefulness of the Power. They are related, but not opposites.

 

That is what Active Points mean to me, they are a gauge of the relative power of a...(sigh, did it again)...Power.

I agree that Limitations aren't supposed to be the opposite of Advantages, which was basically my point in the original post. If you put No Range on an EB it is changing the relative strength. It doesn't make the range less effective. It removes it completely. That changes the actual strength of the power and not just effectiveness.

[Rapier]

Re: What Do Active Points Represent To You?

 

I agree that Limitations aren't supposed to be the opposite of Advantages' date=' which was basically my point in the original post. If you put No Range on an EB it is changing the relative strength. It doesn't make the range less effective. It removes it completely. That changes the actual strength of the power and not just effectiveness.[/quote']

 

The power has not lost any strength by becoming No Range, it is just as effective as it ever was...it is just that the utility has been curtailed. The power itself has not changed, it will STILL do 12d6 or whatever, the problem is that now you can only use it against people standing next to you.

 

Strength vs Utility.

[Vurbal]

Re: What Do Active Points Represent To You?

 

The power has not lost any strength by becoming No Range, it is just as effective as it ever was...it is just that the utility has been curtailed. The power itself has not changed, it will STILL do 12d6 or whatever, the problem is that now you can only use it against people standing next to you.

 

Strength vs Utility.

I disagree. If that's the case why does increasing the range increase the Active Point total? Being ranged is built into the base cost of the power, which means it's figured into the Active Points.

 

As I said before, the reason the "problem" (and I'd generally call it a quirk rather than a problem) exists is because many (most?) powers have multiple effects built into the base. Balance is then achieved by comparing these base costs by using rules of thumb like 5 points per die of damage. Because of that you have oddities like the 5th Edition change to Hand Attack being 5 Active and 3 Real Points or the equal oddity of 3 AP for 1d6 damage in 4th Ed. Neither "feels" right to me but one or the other seems necessary to attempt internal consistency. Of course if you distill each power to the lowest common denominator (a single mechanical effect that will always occur) you have to make certain major changes to the system that would be too much to still consider it Hero in some people's eyes. IOW it doesn't really make sense unless you're redesigning it from the ground up.

[Vondy]

Re: What Do Active Points Represent To You?

 

A not very well thought out answer:

 

Power Vs. Applicability.

[zornwil]

Re: What Do Active Points Represent To You?

 

Have you tried running some of your characters through this and seen how the numerical analysis rates against your knowledge?

[Eosin]

Re: What Do Active Points Represent To You?

 

Active points don't mean much to me. I generally only play in heroic level games and it just gets funny when you tell someone they need a 185 Point Equipment Allowance to carry a NICO Grenade. Many spells in Fantasy Hero can have a gross amount of AP but little real effect... AP has no bearing on how I build things.

[Vurbal]

Re: What Do Active Points Represent To You?

 

Have you tried running some of your characters through this and seen how the numerical analysis rates against your knowledge?

I'm hoping to look at it this evening. Primarily what I'm going to be looking at is the effect on frameworks, although for the couple of superheroic level characters I have handy I'll make some comparisons on their powers as well. Hopefully using custom powers in HD will make this a relatively painless process.

[Vurbal]

Re: What Do Active Points Represent To You?

 

Active points don't mean much to me. I generally only play in heroic level games and it just gets funny when you tell someone they need a 185 Point Equipment Allowance to carry a NICO Grenade. Many spells in Fantasy Hero can have a gross amount of AP but little real effect... AP has no bearing on how I build things.

I'm in a similar situation as far as the games I play in, although my hypothesis is that if you use power frameworks it could make more of a difference at the heroic level. My primary interest in the subject came from an idea I'm playing around with for using the toolkit aspect of Hero to build a fantasy setting that would make it easier for players new to Hero - but not new to gaming - to learn.

 

My thought was to build a lot of abilities as powers and provide both a standard Hero writeup and a "plain English" version of the mechanical effects, similar to what you get in more traditional systems. The idea would be to build a character using these pre-built abilities but still be able to customize them with little (or no) Hero experience under their belt, and then move on to learning the intricacies of the system. At any point in this process they could decide they're happy with how they're doing things and not have to progress any further.

 

In order to make this second writeup easily customizable without reading through the more technical standard one I thought I'd have it just show the Base, Advantage, and Limitation values and some simple/common changes they could make. It was during the process of considering this approach that I started seriously questioning the consistency of what goes into the base cost of a power and what effect that has on Active and Real Points.

 

Once I experiment with some different approaches I suppose I'll have an idea whether I can make the kind of changes I'm talking about without a) rewriting the majority of the existing power (and maybe characteristic) structure and making more work than it's worth. If I find that it doesn't work without completely overhauling the system I'll stop there. It would need to be close enough that I could hand someone who's been playing in this setting a copy of Sidekick, along with an explanation of my changes (no more than a few pages), and have them able to use it to customize my pre-built abilities relatively quickly and with little one on one help from me.

 

I suspect I'll find it to be more useful as an intellectual exercise than anything else, but that's alright with me. And if I do get something of value to enhance my gaming experience it's an added bonus.

[Lemurion]

Re: What Do Active Points Represent To You?

 

Active points quantify effect; real points quantify cost.

 

Really, that's it.

[Vurbal]

Re: What Do Active Points Represent To You?

 

Active points quantify effect; real points quantify cost.

 

Really, that's it.

So you would say that an Ego Blast with the No Range and Limitation has the same amount of effect as one that has the normal Line Of Sight/No Range Modifiers? They have the same Active Points but I'd say one has a quantifiable advantage (ie the cost of buying DEX or Combat Skill Levels) over the other.

[Lemurion]

Re: What Do Active Points Represent To You?

 

So you would say that an Ego Blast with the No Range and Limitation has the same amount of effect as one that has the normal Line Of Sight/No Range Modifiers? They have the same Active Points but I'd say one has a quantifiable advantage (ie the cost of buying DEX or Combat Skill Levels) over the other.

 

When you apply them to the defenses, they both have the same effect; hence the same active points.

[Vurbal]

Re: What Do Active Points Represent To You?

 

When you apply them to the defenses' date=' they both have the same effect; hence the same active points.[/quote']

I wouldn't have a problem with that reasoning, but it's not how Hero calculates Active Points. Usable By Others doesn't change how an attack affects defenses but it still raises the Active Points. Applying your reasoning it shouldn't.