Firing Into Melee, a rules quandary

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Firing Into Melee, a rules quandary

 

Being in the military' date=' and seeing people that have never shot before shoot, I can pretty much vouch for the fallicy of this "logic". Most gun battles take place short distances (less than 9 yards) and even in HERO I'd bet that's a pretty good estimate. The trouble with the unexperienced isn't hitting the target. At that range point the barrel at what you want to hit and let the bullet do the rest. [/quote']

And yet in most shootings at the range you describe, even experienced shooters tend to miss more often than they hit. There's a little more to it than "point and click."

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Firing Into Melee, a rules quandary

 

And yet in most shootings at the range you describe' date=' even experienced shooters tend to miss more often than they hit. There's a little more to it than "point and click." [/quote']

 

True dat, but even so.... the rules need work.

 

It'd be one thing if, for example, we were discussing shooting at two people grappling, but simply in HTH? usually that means they are within striking range, or, say, adjacent hexs. Granted there is a lot of small, abstracted but not simulated combat maneuvering within those, what, 16 cubic meters, but even so... it gets a bit silly. Usually when I throw a shot it's MAYBE 12" off target, if something TOTALLY screws me up. Rapid firing a DA revolver as fast as I can, I usually wind up with shot groupings of a foot or less at combat range. If I slow down and place each shot pretty carefully (but not quite at the brace and set level), I wind up with around a 4" group. Braced and set, that drops to around 2". Moving targets throws a lot of that out the door, but even so, I can't think of the last time I missed a shot so badly it went wide by meters.

 

I like the idea of basing the OCV for any collateral damage accidental hits off the amount the attack roll was missed by. That way, the more "squirelly" the target is behaving (DCV bonuses), the better the chance that you accidentally take a shot when your sight picture inculdes a collateral target, and thus the better chance of commiting an oops.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Firing Into Melee, a rules quandary

 

Please forgive me if this has already been covered but doesn't the urgency of the shot (in the case of snipers at least) figure into the risk nearby bystanders?

 

Example:

 

Say the shooter is assumed to be firing from the target's 6 o'clock.

If a bystander is at the ranges between 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock with respect to the target there is much greater risk of getting hit on a stray shot (or even 'good' shot if it penetrates the target!) than there is if the bystander is outside of the 2 and 10 o'clock angles.

 

In all fairness, this really boils down to a GM call and should be adjudicated in the same way that the luck and karma of the player character's actions play out.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Firing Into Melee, a rules quandary

 

Please forgive me if this has already been covered but doesn't the urgency of the shot (in the case of snipers at least) figure into the risk nearby bystanders?

 

Example:

 

Say the shooter is assumed to be firing from the target's 6 o'clock.

If a bystander is at the ranges between 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock with respect to the target there is much greater risk of getting hit on a stray shot (or even 'good' shot if it penetrates the target!) than there is if the bystander is outside of the 2 and 10 o'clock angles.

 

In all fairness, this really boils down to a GM call and should be adjudicated in the same way that the luck and karma of the player character's actions play out.

Totally. collateral targets closer to the long axis of the shot (the 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock line) are at far more risk than ones on the short axis (the 3-9 line), because sideways deviation is generally fairly small.

I need to reread the firing into Melee rules to see if there is an obvious fix

[Checkmate]

Re: Firing Into Melee, a rules quandary

 

The point I made about laughing is quite simple. I have seen rules in both Hero and other systems that when taken to the extreme (like the example given) can be abused, or make the rule appear broken. (see "rules lawyer" and "munchkin") Common sense has got to come into play at some point.

It doesn't "appear" broken. Name another RULE (not power set up) that can be abused this way. In my expereince the term "Muchkin" has always applied to character builds, not rules like this.

But to the actual complete novice shooter' date=' let's add all of this up, plus a bit more. First you have nerves (the gun is now shaking) then you have the gun moving slightly to the right for squeeze rather than pull, you also did not mention dominant eye aiming or kick of the gun so let's add those in.[/quote']

The reason I didn't add these in is at 9 yards they are virtually irrelevant. The shaky loose grip will probably just jam the gun (depending on the type). I am far from a great shooter, but I can hit a target at 9 yards without ever looking at the front sight let alone getting proper sight alignment, so eye dominance doesn't matter. As far as the kick of the gun, 9 yards isn't enough of a distance to make the kick effect the bullet enough. All of these things together, throw the bullet off VERY little at 9 yards.

Without ever picking up the gun are you familiar with it's weight? Do you know how to properly hold it without ever using a gun? Having seen and been someone who had never used a gun and then used one, I can tell you it is quite easy to miss by quite a bit. And no, I am not talking about miles, I am talking about feet as opposed to inches. If I miss you and the person you are HtH fighting with by 3 feet, I miss everything. If I miss you by a few inches, I could very well hit the other person. While I am not going to do the math of how being off in aim by just an inch or two translates out at 9 yards from the firing point, it is safe to say that just a few inches is all it would take to miss by feet. Angles work that way.

See above

By all means' date=' do what you are comfortable with, but it is pretty logical to think someone who knows how to hit a target is more likely to come close than someone who doesn't.[/quote']

 

And yet in most shootings at the range you describe' date=' even experienced shooters tend to miss more often than they hit. There's a little more to it than "point and click."[/quote']

Not at 9 yards they don't. I shoot 4 times a year and I can hit the target 8-10 out of 10 shots.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Firing Into Melee, a rules quandary

 

Not at 9 yards they don't. I shoot 4 times a year and I can hit the target 8-10 out of 10 shots.

...Sure, assuming no one's shooting back at you while you're doing so. There's a big difference between the range and actual combat shooting; I was refering to the later. If you like, I'll try and dig up some references.

[Checkmate]

Re: Firing Into Melee, a rules quandary

 

Ah but no one would be shooting back, if the person I'm shooting at is HtH fighting with my partner.

 

Otherwise you are absolutely correct (and I misunderstood your post). There is a story in Jacksonville FL where an officer was in a shoot out at less than 6 yards (and even got as close as 3 yards), empited his whole clip (20 rounds) and never hit his target once. The guy he was firing at emptied a 15 round clip and never hit. So from as close as 6 yards 35 rounds missed.

[DiTenebras]

Re: Firing Into Melee, a rules quandary

 

Just a quick note here: The whole base issue of who's more likely to hit an unintended target when firing into a melee only occurs when the shooter misses by less than the cover modifier. Unless I'm mistaken, this by definition means that you would have hit your target if your favorite brick (or martial artist, or whatnot) hadn't stepped into your shot. Gee, sorry, Frank! Problem is, our largeish friend got in the way, partially blocked our aim to the villain, and now risks getting a third eye. The concealment refers as much to something moving into your way mid shot as something blocking your view to begin with. If I'm wrong here, let me apologize in advance - the rest of this post won't mean much.

 

In the example way back of itchy-trigger-fingered hero vs mook, in order to reach the stage of rolling to hit an unintended target, the shot would've hit without the cover bonus (not extraordinary for our hero, but pretty lucky for the mook). This immediately places both shots in close proximity to the target. The mook's won't be a whole lot wider than the hero's - if he had missed by seven points, he wouldn't be re-rolling for another target in the first place.

 

On the other hand, the hero missed *because something was in the way* - even if you're a good shot, there's not a whole lot you can do to avoid hitting an interposing target other than trying to shoot wide, lessening your chances to hit your intended target in the first place. Anyone who's ever tried a shooting range with targets that move past each other should recall the frustration.

 

While I'm not incredibly experienced with firearms, I can say from paintball (don't hurt me) experience that even the better shots on the field find that it's a whole lot easier to hit what you're aiming for than to *not* hit something that gets in the way. Once the shot's off, it's a lot more about your friend's reflexes and survival instinct than about how well placed the shot was to start with. I've managed to duck out of the way of a couple of these, and have been nailed in the throat trying.

 

From this perspective, I think the flat 0 OCV roll with a bonus equal to the concealment modifier that made you miss seems to be the most functional option that's been presented. It puts everyone, regardless of skill, on an even playing field once the shot's been missed due to cover. The marksman (our hero) is less likely to have the near miss in the first place then the mook, but if the miss happens, it's no more or less likely to hit a friend than the mook's (more likely to occur) near miss.

 

Whew. I talk too much at time.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Firing Into Melee, a rules quandary

 

While I'm not incredibly experienced with firearms' date=' I can say from paintball (don't hurt me) experience that even the better shots on the field find that it's a whole lot easier to hit what you're aiming for than to *not* hit something that gets in the way. Once the shot's off, it's a lot more about your friend's reflexes and survival instinct than about how well placed the shot was to start with. I've managed to duck out of the way of a couple of these, and have been nailed in the throat trying. [/quote']

Well, bullets do travel a tad faster than paintballs so it's harder for people/things to get in/out of the way after the trigger's been pulled. But apart from that quibble, I think you nailed it. [Have some rep!]

[TorgSmith]

Re: Firing Into Melee, a rules quandary

 

Hi there,

 

I think the rules are fine as printed.

I think a skilled sniper is more likely to hit another person if he misses than an unskilled shooter. If you go into a gun range and quickly unload a pistol into a medium target at 25 feet without much shooting experience you will miss the target a bunch. If you train for years and go into a gun range and quickly unload a clip into a medium target at 25 feet you will get a fairly tight grouping. The experienced sniper is likely to not miss by much that would lead to him to more likely hit somebody who is providing cover for the target than the rooky who would be more likely to miss by a mile.

Thank You,

Torg Smith