Elminating tracking stuff in HERO - but preserving the essential ideas...

[zornwil]

Re: Elminating tracking stuff in HERO - but preserving the essential ideas...

 

I may be confused... but let me see if I'm getting your suggestion right.

 

You apply damage as per normal rules. Subtracting applicable defenses.

 

If any damage gets through, you compare that amount to a "percentage of normal total."

 

Depending on how much of a percentage you took... you get a "color statement" like "That seriously hurt me!"

 

 

Cumulative damage can provide a "color statement" of higher level?

 

 

Basically?

 

Is there a functional/mechanical aspect to the "color levels"? The "-1 if seriously hurt" type of thing?

 

 

What I seem to see here is MORE book keeping... but for no more benefit than some assigned "color" language.

To answer your and HM's question, you aren't record-keeping the stun damage itself. For example -

 

Attacker blasts Defender. Hits with 12d6 EB, rolls 40 STUN, 12 BOD.

 

Defender has 20 ED. He takes 20 STUN. His STUN is 40. That's 50%. He was "Okay, so now he is "Reeling." (let's say, I didn't look back at the example tiers). Mechanically, that has no effect except that it makes him more vulnerable to the next hit.

 

Next some bricks fall on Defender, doing 12 STUN and 2 BOD. That's only 2 STUN. His STUN is 40, so that's less than 10%. Let's say the rule is that 10% or less can't knock you out but can knock you down a level, if there's a level below "Reeling" such as "Almost down," then he might go down to "Almost Down" or if the next level is "Out" (0 STUN) then maybe he stays up.

 

But note that we did not track any decrementing of the 40 STUN.

 

As I said, this was just a loose idea as a way to do it. I"m interested if people have others that involve not decremeniting the values but have some sort of analagous damage results.

[zornwil]

Re: Elminating tracking stuff in HERO - but preserving the essential ideas...

 

After reading everyone's post I see no one has mentioned what I was thinking as an alternative.

 

Disclaimer: This may or may not reduce the actual record keeping depending on how one runs their current game.

 

Definitions

Hits

Minor Hit: GM determined.

Average Hit = 2 Minor Hits

Major Hit = 2 Average Hits

Awesome Hit = 2 Major Hits

 

Wound Levels (BODY=10 For Concrete Numbers)

I'm Fine = No Hits Taken

I'm Slightly Weakened = (BODY/5)*1 Minor Hits = 1-2 Minor Hits Taken

I'm Losing It = (BODY/5)*2 Minor Hits - 10/5 = 3-4 Minor Hits Taken

I'm Barely Able To Function = (BODY/5)*4 Minor Hits = 5-8 Minor Hits Taken

Dying/Death = (BODY/5)*8 Minor Hits = 9-15 Minor Hits Taken (16 Hits = Death)

 

Usage

The example given was for BODY, but the same method could be used for any Defense/Attack. The numbers in the formula also can be tweaked to make fights quick or long. The only downside is that replacing the Adjustment Powers means that all Stats and Powers would in essense would have to use this method.

 

- Christopher Mullins

That's pretty interesting, thanks. That's the sort of ideas I'm fishing for.

[zornwil]

Re: Elminating tracking stuff in HERO - but preserving the essential ideas...

 

Hey Zornwil. I read your post, and as an apriori premise, I'm not responding to anything but the OP (the Uncluttered Thought Theory). So if I repeat, I apologize.

 

Based on what you're saying, it sounds like you're looking to frappe White Wolf's/MechWarrior's decline system and d20's simple time calculations. Here are some things I've been thinking of, somewhat on the same lines.

 

In d20, people don't "recover" from being Drained in the traditional sense, they have an effect which sticks with them for X rounds, then wears off. This is much easier to remember than "I get back 5 STR... um... has it been a minute yet? Okay... that's another 5 STR... how much did I lose initially?" It's beautiful, because it's accurate, but it's clunky, because it's so precise, and doesn't always stand up well in practice. I'm not suggesting we make HERO d20, but as I said in another thread about two minute ago, there's a level of 21st Century Thinking that HERO could benefit from. I think this is one of those pieces.

 

You can simulate the concept of "Rounds" in HERO fairly easily, if you wanted to go that route. I think Steve has a couple of examples in his texts where he took 'Uncontrolled' and used it to force-create a duration. You could, instead, change "Extra Time" or "Delayed Recovery" to "Duration" and see if that helps. For example:

 

Drain STR 4d6, Extra Time (1 minute), Duration (+1, STR only recovers once all STR is returned).

 

In other words, you can do the math in advance and say "Okay, you have 15 STR, you've been drained to 12, that's 3 minutes before your STR comes back." And you're done. You've kept with the mechanics, yes I introduced a new rule I just pulled out of my butt, but you get the idea. The ability is there without really twisting HERO into any sort of new knots that it isn't capable of already.

 

In so far as the END/BODY/STUN thing, that's a bit trickier, but I think that the simplest thing to do is (sorry) slap a chart on it. I have 12 BODY. The chart says every 2 BODY below 10 I start to feel an effect. This easily simulates people who're going to take way longer before they get hurt or winded, as well as people who aren't all that tough to begin with. I'm aware that on paper that means my housecats, with their 5 BODY, are always going to be 'injured' on my imagined chart, but the proposal would also suggest that being maxed out is considered 'healthy.' In other words, if you do a point of BODY damage to my cat, he's going to be seriously injured, possibly limping, possibly down for the count. He's small and isn't built to take BODY. But full health means no penalties.

 

Does that make sense? Do you see what I'm getting at? the reason I'm mentioning charts at all is beacuse, like White Wolf, having them right in front of you makes it very easy to follow what's happening without a lot of numbers manipulation or scratching through certain things.

 

So those are OTTOMH. Hope they help.

I think the above 2 posts, I hope, clarify what I'm looking for.

 

Basically retaining HERO's feel without tracking how much STUN or BOD is lost.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Elminating tracking stuff in HERO - but preserving the essential ideas...

 

This interests me because I am trying to put my ideas down for Glorantha HERO and part of that is moving the GUI for the game toward the old MSH style of having names for stuff - like Awesome Strength and Unearthly Stamina. I haven't decided on terms but for example lets use these five in order: Typical, Amazing, Incredible, Unbelievable, Unearthly

 

It has meant that I have had to do a certain amount of 'grouping' (that is creating breakpoints). My idea would be that any ability could be used against any other with penalties applied by the GM depending on applicability.

 

So if Cyclops shot at Superman with his Incredible Eyebeams then Superman could defend with his Unearthly Invulnerability or Incredible Reflexes. Flash might defend with his Unbelievable Speed, etc

 

My initial thoughts are that if you're ability is one rank better than the one you are defending against, you take no damage. If you are one rank worse then you are taken out. (i've been testing a variety of ways for this and working on OCV versus OCV one rank would be the equivalent of a difference of 5 CV). For me it is a way of reducing the pointless combats.

 

When abilities are equal then there is a grading and a fallback on the dice. Each ability will have a star rating (1-5) depending on the actual abilities bought. Those will be used in the typical OCV-DCV+3D6 and the relative success of the roll will determine the result of the attack.

 

Given an Incredible attack a result of 8-11 will deliver Incredible damage, 4-7 will deliver Unbelievable damage and 3 will deliver Unearthly damage.

 

I have been trying to consider the results of that and am coming down to the losing ability losing one of its 'stars' for Incredible damage, two for Unbelievable and three for unearthly, to the extent that a five star ability could withstand fiveIncredible hits before being degraded to a lesser rank - the sixth hit would result in instant KO.

 

Players and GMs then never have to track numbers higher than 5.

 

I haven't yet decided on a fatigue style system - not sure whether to integrate that with the rest of it or have it seperate (tending towards the latter) - it keeps the whole post segment 12 thing going.

 

I have also been toying with using tokens - every time an ability is reduced by 1 the player loses a token (beginning number of tokens = BODY stat). When all tokens are lost the character is KO'ed regardless of anything else. Token would be returned depending on recoveries available to them and where the tokens need to go. a token being returned to an Incredible stat needs only one recovery if REC is also Incredible but would need five recoveries if the REC was only Amazing.

 

This is all sketchily put together in my head at present. I haven't come up with how to put it together except in the most casual of manners. I fully expect to have a character sheet for me that would look almost identical to current HERO character sheets and a character sheet for the player that would look nothing like the current HERO character sheet.

 

I will find out if this works when I drag enough personal time back from parenting and a current heavy work schedule.

 

 

Doc

[zornwil]

Re: Elminating tracking stuff in HERO - but preserving the essential ideas...

 

Interesting ideas, thanks Doc. I find the sort of exponential level, if you will, of the tiers interesting.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Elminating tracking stuff in HERO - but preserving the essential ideas...

 

Interesting ideas' date=' thanks Doc. I find the sort of exponential level, if you will, of the tiers interesting.[/quote']

 

I wanted to find a way of superheroic abilities making certain actions certain. This means that you are (effectively) invulnerable if the ability you are using in your contest is one tier above the one your opponent is using.

 

There would be a lot of GM decision making on the appropriateness of abilities to certain actions - but the HERO detail character sheet should aid in making those decisions. If someone's "Hard to hit" ability is modelled with desolid then using that to walk a tightrope would be pretty inappropriate and the ability could be downgraded two or three ranks. But if they wanted to apply the Hard to hit ability to try and be stealthy, then the GM might give them full ability or simply one rank less.

 

If on the other hand the "Hard to hit" ability was modelled using lots of DEX, DEX skills and levels, then both actions might be used at full ability.

 

The trick would be in making sure that the build of the character followed the ideas that the player provided during the initial campaign preparation.

 

 

Doc

[zornwil]

Re: Elminating tracking stuff in HERO - but preserving the essential ideas...

 

Yes, I can see this working.

 

But do you think there will be some homogenization if everyone's primary offense and defense are (for example) "Amazing"? This would seem more likely given the points basis and the generally narrow range that PCs stay in.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Elminating tracking stuff in HERO - but preserving the essential ideas...

 

To me combat is homogenised anyway. As it stands I can see trying to get each player to splash out on an Incredible talent or two and at least then you have a game where the focus is on the powers rather than OCV and defence types....

 

 

Doc

[zornwil]

Re: Elminating tracking stuff in HERO - but preserving the essential ideas...

 

Actually, oddly, enough, I just adopted max attacks for our campaign due to the power level (120 AP) and disparities in power. But I am allowing up to a 150 point AP attack for each character once per Turn.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Elminating tracking stuff in HERO - but preserving the essential ideas...

 

Another idea, again eliminating STUN, that eliminates some of the predictability:

 

You could make a CON roll at -1/10 stun through defences and at a cumulative penalty of -1 per roll in this combat. This -1/roll recovers at REC/5 per turn (so a 12 REC would reduce the cumulative penalty by 2 at each recovery)

 

A failed result means you are KO'd, and the amount you fail by determines how KO'd you are. 1-2 points, treat as stunned, 3-4 points, treat as conscious but unable to act (currently -1 to -10 STUN) and anything more is coma time.

 

This has the advantage that, whilst there is some tracking involved (the cumulative penalties) it is almost impossible to know whether the next hit is going to take you out or not, although the likelihood would increase as the penalty increases.

 

The other thing of possible note is that it does include a place for recovery, which is nice.

 

A character with 25 CON therefore would have a 14- roll.

 

Damage......1st hit...........2nd hit......etc

1-10...........13-................12-

11-20..........12-................11-

21-30..........11-................10-

31-40..........10-.................9-

etc.............etc

 

Obviously you could dicker around with the dividers (STUN/5 would make KOs far more likely early on in combat, for example or base the roll on CON/3), and this does take out some of the grittiness in the build (there is no real difference between 25 and 26 CON), but it might be interesting.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Elminating tracking stuff in HERO - but preserving the essential ideas...

 

You could do something similar with BODY damage too, based on a 'BODY roll'. I'll leave the details to you

[Sean Waters]

Re: Elminating tracking stuff in HERO - but preserving the essential ideas...

 

If you want to eliminate tracking altogether then you could remove the cumulative penalty, which would give you longer combats, but would mean that some characters would, in essence be indestructible, at least against attacks that did not cause massive damage. You may think that is a good thing, but you really would need to keep an eye on CON expenditure

 

You could also buy bonus CON against certain sfx: +10 CON only v fire damage (-1) could make you practically indestructible against certain damage types, especially if you DID take out the cumulative penalty.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Elminating tracking stuff in HERO - but preserving the essential ideas...

 

Actually (and I'm warming to my theme now), how many times have you seen the X-Men, ot the JLA get caught in some dort of explosion, and all KO'd and it ISN'T Collossus or Superman who wakes up first? Well a couple of times, anyway. This might explain why - same damage - individual result!

[zornwil]

Re: Elminating tracking stuff in HERO - but preserving the essential ideas...

 

Another idea, again eliminating STUN, that eliminates some of the predictability:

 

You could make a CON roll at -1/10 stun through defences and at a cumulative penalty of -1 per roll in this combat. This -1/roll recovers at REC/5 per turn (so a 12 REC would reduce the cumulative penalty by 2 at each recovery)

 

A failed result means you are KO'd, and the amount you fail by determines how KO'd you are. 1-2 points, treat as stunned, 3-4 points, treat as conscious but unable to act (currently -1 to -10 STUN) and anything more is coma time.

 

This has the advantage that, whilst there is some tracking involved (the cumulative penalties) it is almost impossible to know whether the next hit is going to take you out or not, although the likelihood would increase as the penalty increases.

 

The other thing of possible note is that it does include a place for recovery, which is nice.

 

A character with 25 CON therefore would have a 14- roll.

 

Damage......1st hit...........2nd hit......etc

1-10...........13-................12-

11-20..........12-................11-

21-30..........11-................10-

31-40..........10-.................9-

etc.............etc

 

Obviously you could dicker around with the dividers (STUN/5 would make KOs far more likely early on in combat, for example or base the roll on CON/3), and this does take out some of the grittiness in the build (there is no real difference between 25 and 26 CON), but it might be interesting.

Pretty interesting, ideas, with the follow-ups, too, thanks!

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Elminating tracking stuff in HERO - but preserving the essential ideas...

 

I liked all of this stuff Sean and will rep you when I am able. One thing I wasn't as hot on was

 

 

This -1/roll recovers at REC/5 per turn (so a 12 REC would reduce the cumulative penalty by 2 at each recovery)

 

It makes REC only worth buying in blocks of 5.

 

What about giving a REC roll, 12 REC will reduce penalty if you roll 12- on 3D6, 2 if you roll 9-, 3 if you roll 6- and 4 if you roll 3.

 

Each point of REC is then worth something as it moves you across the bell curve and more likely to get multiple points of penalty removed?

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Elminating tracking stuff in HERO - but preserving the essential ideas...

 

I liked all of this stuff Sean and will rep you when I am able. One thing I wasn't as hot on was

 

 

 

 

It makes REC only worth buying in blocks of 5.

 

What about giving a REC roll, 12 REC will reduce penalty if you roll 12- on 3D6, 2 if you roll 9-, 3 if you roll 6- and 4 if you roll 3.

 

Each point of REC is then worth something as it moves you across the bell curve and more likely to get multiple points of penalty removed?

 

 

Doc

 

I had not been able to see a way around that and still include REC in the system, but I do like your take on it, which scales to REC very nicely and precisely (although it would be a bit of a nightmare in heroic games where REC is a lot less: 8 REC only recovers 25% of the time and 6 REC less than 10%

 

Not sure how to address that one.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Elminating tracking stuff in HERO - but preserving the essential ideas...

 

I had not been able to see a way around that and still include REC in the system, but I do like your take on it, which scales to REC very nicely and precisely (although it would be a bit of a nightmare in heroic games where REC is a lot less: 8 REC only recovers 25% of the time and 6 REC less than 10%

 

Not sure how to address that one.

 

Roll on two dice for heroic games?

 

Doc

[zornwil]

Re: Elminating tracking stuff in HERO - but preserving the essential ideas...

 

This interests me because I am trying to put my ideas down for Glorantha HERO and part of that is moving the GUI for the game toward the old MSH style of having names for stuff - like Awesome Strength and Unearthly Stamina. I haven't decided on terms but for example lets use these five in order: Typical, Amazing, Incredible, Unbelievable, Unearthly

 

It has meant that I have had to do a certain amount of 'grouping' (that is creating breakpoints). My idea would be that any ability could be used against any other with penalties applied by the GM depending on applicability.

 

So if Cyclops shot at Superman with his Incredible Eyebeams then Superman could defend with his Unearthly Invulnerability or Incredible Reflexes. Flash might defend with his Unbelievable Speed, etc

 

My initial thoughts are that if you're ability is one rank better than the one you are defending against, you take no damage. If you are one rank worse then you are taken out. (i've been testing a variety of ways for this and working on OCV versus OCV one rank would be the equivalent of a difference of 5 CV). For me it is a way of reducing the pointless combats.

 

When abilities are equal then there is a grading and a fallback on the dice. Each ability will have a star rating (1-5) depending on the actual abilities bought. Those will be used in the typical OCV-DCV+3D6 and the relative success of the roll will determine the result of the attack.

 

Given an Incredible attack a result of 8-11 will deliver Incredible damage, 4-7 will deliver Unbelievable damage and 3 will deliver Unearthly damage.

 

I have been trying to consider the results of that and am coming down to the losing ability losing one of its 'stars' for Incredible damage, two for Unbelievable and three for unearthly, to the extent that a five star ability could withstand fiveIncredible hits before being degraded to a lesser rank - the sixth hit would result in instant KO.

 

Players and GMs then never have to track numbers higher than 5.

 

I haven't yet decided on a fatigue style system - not sure whether to integrate that with the rest of it or have it seperate (tending towards the latter) - it keeps the whole post segment 12 thing going.

 

I have also been toying with using tokens - every time an ability is reduced by 1 the player loses a token (beginning number of tokens = BODY stat). When all tokens are lost the character is KO'ed regardless of anything else. Token would be returned depending on recoveries available to them and where the tokens need to go. a token being returned to an Incredible stat needs only one recovery if REC is also Incredible but would need five recoveries if the REC was only Amazing.

 

This is all sketchily put together in my head at present. I haven't come up with how to put it together except in the most casual of manners. I fully expect to have a character sheet for me that would look almost identical to current HERO character sheets and a character sheet for the player that would look nothing like the current HERO character sheet.

 

I will find out if this works when I drag enough personal time back from parenting and a current heavy work schedule.

 

 

Doc

Doc, have you done any more with this?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Elminating tracking stuff in HERO - but preserving the essential ideas...

 

Doc' date=' have you done any more with this?[/quote']

 

Not yet but my group is desperate to finish the scenario I began under HeroQuest and promised to finish using this. I want to have documentation to give them so that they can understand and play the system - it shouldn't require too much - most of the work would be mine - translating their Object Oriented Programming to the Hero machine code.....

 

 

I have once again given them a promise and will relay stuff as soon as I have it - I have even prepared a website to take it all when I can sort it out - tho would run it past Hero and Issaries before publishing it....

 

 

Doc

[zornwil]

Re: Elminating tracking stuff in HERO - but preserving the essential ideas...

 

I might be very interested in leveraging your work. Very seriously considering a total overhaul of how HERO is used, and you're more or less shooting in the same direction.